What am I doing wrong? Changing Lanes on a Motorway
Discussion
Three similar incidents in two days. Here's what I did:
1. My wife and I are driving down the M27 on Sunday and coming off at the next slip road; I'm driving. We're in lane 2 overtaking a range of vehicles in lane 1, and I spot quite a good sized gap in lane 1, which, by the time I get to it, will be about half a mile to a quarter of a mile from the exit. Perfect. When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap, I check and the car at the rear hasn't sped up and all is still safe, so I slowly move over and cancel the indicator when all four wheels are within the lane. Not much slowing down needed and the gap was perfectly safe.
2. I'm in lane 2 of the M3 overtaking vehicles in lane 1 when I come across a slower car in lane 2. So, I start looking at lane 3 with a view to moving out there to overtake the slower car and then back to lane 2. I spot a gap that's coming up in a few seconds and it'll be fine for me to maintain my speed and change lanes before I reach the slower car. So, I continue at the same speed and when the driver's door of the car at the front of the gap has passed mine, I check all is still well and indicate. The car at the rear of the gap isn't going particularly fast and there's plenty of room, so I slot in with safe gaps in front and behind of me. I gain a couple of mph to blend with the traffic better, and move back to lane 2, still with a safe space all around me.
3. The same as above, M3 in the other direction and the vehicle behind me in lane 3 is a motorbike instead of a car.
In all three of the above, the car behind (at the rear of the gap I've pulled into) has flashed me and the driver gesticulated (except for the bike, who just shook his head at me). In numbers 1 and 2, sooner afterwards, I've witnessed another car dive in front of the same car without indicating and causing them to brake, but with no reaction at all as far as I could see - no flash, no hand signals, nothing.
I try very hard to blend in and not affect anyone around me, and I've had advanced training and read roadcraft, so I understand MSM/CMSBGA, keeping a safe space around me etc etc, but I seem to pick up mild road rage like the above inicdents on average about every other day (i.e. once every 150-200 miles). I've checked and my indicators and all lights are clearly visible and working. Obviously, doing the sort of mileage I do, 95% of it on the motorway, I change lanes countless times without road rage; it's the small percentage of people who lose it that just makes me wonder.
Am I doing anything wrong, or is this just inevitable every now and then? Does anyone have any tips for avoiding road rage? I've tried thanking people with a slow raise of my hand, but it doesn't seem to change things.
1. My wife and I are driving down the M27 on Sunday and coming off at the next slip road; I'm driving. We're in lane 2 overtaking a range of vehicles in lane 1, and I spot quite a good sized gap in lane 1, which, by the time I get to it, will be about half a mile to a quarter of a mile from the exit. Perfect. When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap, I check and the car at the rear hasn't sped up and all is still safe, so I slowly move over and cancel the indicator when all four wheels are within the lane. Not much slowing down needed and the gap was perfectly safe.
2. I'm in lane 2 of the M3 overtaking vehicles in lane 1 when I come across a slower car in lane 2. So, I start looking at lane 3 with a view to moving out there to overtake the slower car and then back to lane 2. I spot a gap that's coming up in a few seconds and it'll be fine for me to maintain my speed and change lanes before I reach the slower car. So, I continue at the same speed and when the driver's door of the car at the front of the gap has passed mine, I check all is still well and indicate. The car at the rear of the gap isn't going particularly fast and there's plenty of room, so I slot in with safe gaps in front and behind of me. I gain a couple of mph to blend with the traffic better, and move back to lane 2, still with a safe space all around me.
3. The same as above, M3 in the other direction and the vehicle behind me in lane 3 is a motorbike instead of a car.
In all three of the above, the car behind (at the rear of the gap I've pulled into) has flashed me and the driver gesticulated (except for the bike, who just shook his head at me). In numbers 1 and 2, sooner afterwards, I've witnessed another car dive in front of the same car without indicating and causing them to brake, but with no reaction at all as far as I could see - no flash, no hand signals, nothing.
I try very hard to blend in and not affect anyone around me, and I've had advanced training and read roadcraft, so I understand MSM/CMSBGA, keeping a safe space around me etc etc, but I seem to pick up mild road rage like the above inicdents on average about every other day (i.e. once every 150-200 miles). I've checked and my indicators and all lights are clearly visible and working. Obviously, doing the sort of mileage I do, 95% of it on the motorway, I change lanes countless times without road rage; it's the small percentage of people who lose it that just makes me wonder.
Am I doing anything wrong, or is this just inevitable every now and then? Does anyone have any tips for avoiding road rage? I've tried thanking people with a slow raise of my hand, but it doesn't seem to change things.
- checks garage*
I drove my Focus ST like a saint and still iused to get grief.
So it's easy to over-analyse the text, which usually doesn't represent the physical act of driving very well, but since we're looking for something wrong, I'll poke at this:
Why are you leaving a pause? This looks like indecision or confusion, and it suggests you need to seek permission, which in turn suggests you're forcing it rather than smoothly blending in.
Surely it's simple. Find a gap, get the speed right, get alongside it such that you can see the car behind in your rear view mirror, indicate if necessary, move in, and you shouldn't have to brake when in the new lane.
RobM77 said:
When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap
Why are you indicating when alongside the car, rather than alongside the gap? This looks like you're going to cut them up, even if you don't.Why are you leaving a pause? This looks like indecision or confusion, and it suggests you need to seek permission, which in turn suggests you're forcing it rather than smoothly blending in.
Surely it's simple. Find a gap, get the speed right, get alongside it such that you can see the car behind in your rear view mirror, indicate if necessary, move in, and you shouldn't have to brake when in the new lane.
KarlMac said:
*checks garage*
Almost certainly because its a BMW. If you were a doddering old dear in a Honda Jazz it wouldn't be an issue. But as your a powerfully built director type in a good car some small minded people will automatically assume your in the wrong.
I drove my Focus ST like a saint and still iused to get grief.
Cannot say that I notice this in a y car including the bmw. Could it be the rate at which you change lane? Almost certainly because its a BMW. If you were a doddering old dear in a Honda Jazz it wouldn't be an issue. But as your a powerfully built director type in a good car some small minded people will automatically assume your in the wrong.
I drove my Focus ST like a saint and still iused to get grief.
trashbat said:
So it's easy to over-analyse the text, which usually doesn't represent the physical act of driving very well, but since we're looking for something wrong, I'll poke at this:
Why are you leaving a pause? This looks like indecision or confusion, and it suggests you need to seek permission, which in turn suggests you're forcing it rather than smoothly blending in.
Surely it's simple. Find a gap, get the speed right, get alongside it such that you can see the car behind in your rear view mirror, indicate if necessary, move in, and you shouldn't have to brake when in the new lane.
Thanks - some good thoughts. I'm indicating when the first driver's just ahead of me because it's the earliest opportunity to signal to the chap behind hiim when my indicators are out of his peripheral vision and he won't think I'm going to change lanes on top of him (if he mistakes me for an 'indicate as you move' type). I'm signalling to the guy at the rear of the gap of course, and I just want to do it as early as possible to give him plenty of warning.RobM77 said:
When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap
Why are you indicating when alongside the car, rather than alongside the gap? This looks like you're going to cut them up, even if you don't.Why are you leaving a pause? This looks like indecision or confusion, and it suggests you need to seek permission, which in turn suggests you're forcing it rather than smoothly blending in.
Surely it's simple. Find a gap, get the speed right, get alongside it such that you can see the car behind in your rear view mirror, indicate if necessary, move in, and you shouldn't have to brake when in the new lane.
I leave a pause to allow people to plan what to do next. I'm a firm believe in mirror signal manouevre, rather than squashing them all on top of each other and surprising people.
Regarding the car I'm driving, yes, all of these incidents are when in my BMW. I often drive my wife's Honda Civic Type R, my Lotus 2-Eleven a few times a year for trackdays, and hire cars with work (the usual thing - Vauxhalls, Fords, Peugeots etc) and have never (as far as my memory serves me, I do actually mean never) had any road rage in any of those.
RobM77 said:
In all three of the above, the car behind (at the rear of the gap I've pulled into) has flashed me and the driver gesticulated (except for the bike, who just shook his head at me).
After you've moved into the gap, what is the time gap between your car and the vehicle behind?What gap would you pick for yourself when following other vehicles?
trashbat said:
Surely it's simple. Find a gap, get the speed right, get alongside it such that you can see the car behind in IN THE MIDDLE of your rear view mirror, indicate if necessary, move in, and you shouldn't have to brake when in the new lane.
If the car behind has only just appeared in the side of the interior mirror your still to close .It seems to me that these days it is acceptable to pass a vehicle , check the nearside mirror and then cut in far too close .
Edited by johnS2000 on Friday 19th September 11:26
It's because you warned them you gave them time to get wound up unnecessarily maybe? Or they think the way you are indicating is being pushy? Either way they are just angry about something and whatever you've done that they don't approve of is where they vent it. I wouldn't take it personally as it doesn't sound like you're being overtly knobbish.
I used to try very hard to keep everyone around me on the road happy and was obsessive about constantly checking my mirrors. It leads to a f
kload of stress and doing 500 miles a week in 2 journeys drilled that out of me and now I do the bare minimum according to the highway code, which compared to most of the people on the motorways is practically advanced driving!
I used to try very hard to keep everyone around me on the road happy and was obsessive about constantly checking my mirrors. It leads to a f
kload of stress and doing 500 miles a week in 2 journeys drilled that out of me and now I do the bare minimum according to the highway code, which compared to most of the people on the motorways is practically advanced driving!johnS2000 said:
If the car behind has only just appeared in the side of the interior mirror your still to close .
It seems to me that these days it is acceptable to pass a vehicle , check the nearside mirror and then cut in far too close .
For clarity, I was taught that you should be able to see at least their headlights in the RVM before moving in.It seems to me that these days it is acceptable to pass a vehicle , check the nearside mirror and then cut in far too close .
Edited by johnS2000 on Friday 19th September 11:26
ATG said:
The most likely explanation is that the other drivers think, rightly or wrongly, that you've moved into a gap that is too small.
I'd have thoght so. Or perhaps the gap is big enough, but you cut in too close?Or if it's very, very close to the off ramp, it could look like a last-minute impatient "push in" (I know, I know) even if the gap is actually big enough.
CrutyRammers said:
Or if it's very, very close to the off ramp, it could look like a last-minute impatient "push in" (I know, I know) even if the gap is actually big enough.
Probably this if you're driving a BMW, and the person who did the non-indicating push-in probably didn't get aggro because the aggrieved had already vented their anger?A couple of things you might want to consider OP.
Firstly, how is your speed assessment of other vehicles?
And secondly, how long do you actually spend looking in the mirror?
Both questions are related to a degree, as either or both of these issues can affect your ability to correctly assess whether a gap is opening, constant or closing.
With reference to the first question, it can be extremely difficult to assess the speed of a vehicle moving towards you when you're simply standing by the side of the road. Add in the additional factors of sitting in a well insulated car, travelling at speed yourself, and trying to assess the speed of a vehicle through the limited letter-box sized rear-view mirror, and assessing a vehicle's speed becomes very difficult indeed.
With reference to the second question, a quick glance in the mirror is a bit like taking a still photograph. It gives you a clear picture of the vehicles behind and their positions, but it can then be difficult to put that picture into context because a photograph - like a quick glance - doesn't show the speeds of the vehicles behind, and more importantly, the speed of those vehicles relative to each other.
I always adivise that mirror checks on the motorway - particularly when you're planning to change lanes - should take at the very least a second, and sometimes much longer. You need to build up a clear understanding of the relative speeds of vehicles behind so that you can decide whether the gaps between them are opening up, constant, or closing.
Moving into an opening or constant gap rarely results in an aggressive response from following drivers, but moving into a closing gap can and does often result in an aggressive response (irrespective of whether it's justified or not) from the next vehicle behind, as they often think you're forcing them to reduce their speed.
Using the principles of critical self analysis discussed here...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
...the next time you're on the motorway, don't change anything about your driving, but pay attention to how long you spend looking in the mirror and how you assess vehicle speeds and gaps between vehicles. Be critical of yourself and see if anything I've mentioned above is relevant to you.
Then, on subsequent journeys, try spending longer looking in the mirror and see if it makes a differrence.
You should also bear in mind that there are a lot of bellends out there, and it's inevitable that you will occasionally encounter some of them if you use motorways regularly
Firstly, how is your speed assessment of other vehicles?
And secondly, how long do you actually spend looking in the mirror?
Both questions are related to a degree, as either or both of these issues can affect your ability to correctly assess whether a gap is opening, constant or closing.
With reference to the first question, it can be extremely difficult to assess the speed of a vehicle moving towards you when you're simply standing by the side of the road. Add in the additional factors of sitting in a well insulated car, travelling at speed yourself, and trying to assess the speed of a vehicle through the limited letter-box sized rear-view mirror, and assessing a vehicle's speed becomes very difficult indeed.
With reference to the second question, a quick glance in the mirror is a bit like taking a still photograph. It gives you a clear picture of the vehicles behind and their positions, but it can then be difficult to put that picture into context because a photograph - like a quick glance - doesn't show the speeds of the vehicles behind, and more importantly, the speed of those vehicles relative to each other.
I always adivise that mirror checks on the motorway - particularly when you're planning to change lanes - should take at the very least a second, and sometimes much longer. You need to build up a clear understanding of the relative speeds of vehicles behind so that you can decide whether the gaps between them are opening up, constant, or closing.
Moving into an opening or constant gap rarely results in an aggressive response from following drivers, but moving into a closing gap can and does often result in an aggressive response (irrespective of whether it's justified or not) from the next vehicle behind, as they often think you're forcing them to reduce their speed.
Using the principles of critical self analysis discussed here...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
...the next time you're on the motorway, don't change anything about your driving, but pay attention to how long you spend looking in the mirror and how you assess vehicle speeds and gaps between vehicles. Be critical of yourself and see if anything I've mentioned above is relevant to you.
Then, on subsequent journeys, try spending longer looking in the mirror and see if it makes a differrence.
You should also bear in mind that there are a lot of bellends out there, and it's inevitable that you will occasionally encounter some of them if you use motorways regularly
RobM77 said:
Thanks - some good thoughts. I'm indicating when the first driver's just ahead of me because it's the earliest opportunity to signal to the chap behind hiim when my indicators are out of his peripheral vision and he won't think I'm going to change lanes on top of him (if he mistakes me for an 'indicate as you move' type). I'm signalling to the guy at the rear of the gap of course, and I just want to do it as early as possible to give him plenty of warning.
I think giving him plenty of warning is good (I'm not sure what the point of a signal would be if you didn't pause - that would be being an 'indicate as you move' type which is a Bad Thing), but if you feel the driver behind needs some warning so they can plan what to do next, that does sound like a situation where you're needing to seek co-operation. If so, putting the signal on as you pass the car you intend to end up in front of could come across as a bit pushy - "I'll let you know what I'm going to do, but either way I'm doing it anyway". My preference in this situation would probably be to pass that car and match speed with the gap before signalling - trying to make it look like I plan to slot in behind the car ahead in lane 1 rather than slot in in front of the car I've just passed (yes, obviously they're the same thing, but it's how it's perceived).R_U_LOCAL said:
A couple of things you might want to consider OP.
Firstly, how is your speed assessment of other vehicles?
And secondly, how long do you actually spend looking in the mirror?
Both questions are related to a degree, as either or both of these issues can affect your ability to correctly assess whether a gap is opening, constant or closing.
With reference to the first question, it can be extremely difficult to assess the speed of a vehicle moving towards you when you're simply standing by the side of the road. Add in the additional factors of sitting in a well insulated car, travelling at speed yourself, and trying to assess the speed of a vehicle through the limited letter-box sized rear-view mirror, and assessing a vehicle's speed becomes very difficult indeed.
With reference to the second question, a quick glance in the mirror is a bit like taking a still photograph. It gives you a clear picture of the vehicles behind and their positions, but it can then be difficult to put that picture into context because a photograph - like a quick glance - doesn't show the speeds of the vehicles behind, and more importantly, the speed of those vehicles relative to each other.
I always adivise that mirror checks on the motorway - particularly when you're planning to change lanes - should take at the very least a second, and sometimes much longer. You need to build up a clear understanding of the relative speeds of vehicles behind so that you can decide whether the gaps between them are opening up, constant, or closing.
Moving into an opening or constant gap rarely results in an aggressive response from following drivers, but moving into a closing gap can and does often result in an aggressive response (irrespective of whether it's justified or not) from the next vehicle behind, as they often think you're forcing them to reduce their speed.
Using the principles of critical self analysis discussed here...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
...the next time you're on the motorway, don't change anything about your driving, but pay attention to how long you spend looking in the mirror and how you assess vehicle speeds and gaps between vehicles. Be critical of yourself and see if anything I've mentioned above is relevant to you.
Then, on subsequent journeys, try spending longer looking in the mirror and see if it makes a differrence.
You should also bear in mind that there are a lot of bellends out there, and it's inevitable that you will occasionally encounter some of them if you use motorways regularly
Pretty good to be honest, given all the racing I've done. This is especially relevant in testing when amongst other types of racing car, when it's important to keep lap times consistent and therefore to judge when a faster car will pass you and vice versa, to within a split second so it doesn't cause either of you to change speed or course too much. The last team I drove for often commented on how well I did that.Firstly, how is your speed assessment of other vehicles?
And secondly, how long do you actually spend looking in the mirror?
Both questions are related to a degree, as either or both of these issues can affect your ability to correctly assess whether a gap is opening, constant or closing.
With reference to the first question, it can be extremely difficult to assess the speed of a vehicle moving towards you when you're simply standing by the side of the road. Add in the additional factors of sitting in a well insulated car, travelling at speed yourself, and trying to assess the speed of a vehicle through the limited letter-box sized rear-view mirror, and assessing a vehicle's speed becomes very difficult indeed.
With reference to the second question, a quick glance in the mirror is a bit like taking a still photograph. It gives you a clear picture of the vehicles behind and their positions, but it can then be difficult to put that picture into context because a photograph - like a quick glance - doesn't show the speeds of the vehicles behind, and more importantly, the speed of those vehicles relative to each other.
I always adivise that mirror checks on the motorway - particularly when you're planning to change lanes - should take at the very least a second, and sometimes much longer. You need to build up a clear understanding of the relative speeds of vehicles behind so that you can decide whether the gaps between them are opening up, constant, or closing.
Moving into an opening or constant gap rarely results in an aggressive response from following drivers, but moving into a closing gap can and does often result in an aggressive response (irrespective of whether it's justified or not) from the next vehicle behind, as they often think you're forcing them to reduce their speed.
Using the principles of critical self analysis discussed here...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
...the next time you're on the motorway, don't change anything about your driving, but pay attention to how long you spend looking in the mirror and how you assess vehicle speeds and gaps between vehicles. Be critical of yourself and see if anything I've mentioned above is relevant to you.
Then, on subsequent journeys, try spending longer looking in the mirror and see if it makes a differrence.
You should also bear in mind that there are a lot of bellends out there, and it's inevitable that you will occasionally encounter some of them if you use motorways regularly
I have a feeling it might be my BMW, rather than me. I was in a Peugeot last week and didn't have any trouble at all.
for my 2 pennies worth.......I live in the same area, and use the M27 nearly every day. Exiting the motorways can be difficult if you don't move over into lane 1 early enough.
I would suggest you try to get into lane 1 at the 1 mile marker. At 70 mph you have about a minute to the exit. At the 1/2 mile marker about 30 seconds. If the traffic is heavy, the gaps will be shorter, therefore those that have been patient and are over in lane 1 earlier may feel a little aggrieved when some one over takes, and jumps into the "gap" they created for themselves causing them to lift off the gas or brake.
If you move into lane 1 at the 1 mile marker and have to slow to about 60 mph......it will only take you about an extra 8 seconds to get to the exit ramp/slip road, but, you will be less stressed, and know that you will be off the road for certain rather than having to "force" your way off the road.
The same could be said for your overtakes in the eyes of the person you may have just overtaken. Many people "cut in" misjudging the gap....it happens to all of us....we have all done it to others. Remember your wing mirrors make objects look smaller and further away than they actually are. Your rear view mirror shows you the "actual" distance the vehicles are behind you, many confuse them.
I live close to junction 2 of the M27......I teach driving for a living ......(pm me if you would like some guidance! well it's always nice to get some work!!). when I teach /coach learners I encourage all to have at least a 2 hour motorway lesson asap after their driving test.....in 10 years of teaching I think I may have taken about 10 or less out. Most claim that their mum/dad/uncle or brother/sister will show them how to drive motorways.....but who taught them?
When i take out full licence holders on motorways for "eco" or "defensive" driving courses and ask them who taught them to drive on motorways just about all say "themselves". Hence we all see some very poor driving standards on the motorway network (present company excepted!) The law states that professional driving instructors can not take novice/learner drivers onto the motorways.....a really pants law that should be changed. it would help lift the standard of motorway driving....big time
advice for free....allow more time, more space, think about how you would feel if you carried out a manoeuvre that caused someone to change direct or speed, if that same manoeuvre was done to you. Anticipate and plan earlier.
good luck
I would suggest you try to get into lane 1 at the 1 mile marker. At 70 mph you have about a minute to the exit. At the 1/2 mile marker about 30 seconds. If the traffic is heavy, the gaps will be shorter, therefore those that have been patient and are over in lane 1 earlier may feel a little aggrieved when some one over takes, and jumps into the "gap" they created for themselves causing them to lift off the gas or brake.
If you move into lane 1 at the 1 mile marker and have to slow to about 60 mph......it will only take you about an extra 8 seconds to get to the exit ramp/slip road, but, you will be less stressed, and know that you will be off the road for certain rather than having to "force" your way off the road.
The same could be said for your overtakes in the eyes of the person you may have just overtaken. Many people "cut in" misjudging the gap....it happens to all of us....we have all done it to others. Remember your wing mirrors make objects look smaller and further away than they actually are. Your rear view mirror shows you the "actual" distance the vehicles are behind you, many confuse them.
I live close to junction 2 of the M27......I teach driving for a living ......(pm me if you would like some guidance! well it's always nice to get some work!!). when I teach /coach learners I encourage all to have at least a 2 hour motorway lesson asap after their driving test.....in 10 years of teaching I think I may have taken about 10 or less out. Most claim that their mum/dad/uncle or brother/sister will show them how to drive motorways.....but who taught them?
When i take out full licence holders on motorways for "eco" or "defensive" driving courses and ask them who taught them to drive on motorways just about all say "themselves". Hence we all see some very poor driving standards on the motorway network (present company excepted!) The law states that professional driving instructors can not take novice/learner drivers onto the motorways.....a really pants law that should be changed. it would help lift the standard of motorway driving....big time
advice for free....allow more time, more space, think about how you would feel if you carried out a manoeuvre that caused someone to change direct or speed, if that same manoeuvre was done to you. Anticipate and plan earlier.
good luck
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