Fast Response Paramedic Drivers

[daz6215]

Byteme said:

I think the training is, and has always been, in place. My estimation is that once completed, driving becomes a secondary task and lessons taught are forgotten.

So do you think traditional driver training is working then? What steps need to be taken to ensure risk taking is reduced when the instructor is gone?

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

I might just also chip in with my own experience here...

I'm a final-year Student Paramedic with the NHS / University route of training. I spend probably 75% of my time on placement in NHS vehicles - both full-blown Ambulances, and RRV fast response cars.

I do know that all NHS employees go through a pretty comprehensive blue-light driving course, the rules of which, on the whole, seems to stay with all the drivers I have been out with so far. A small minority can occasionally take one or two risks that I would personally have deemed 'inappropriate' - and when they have done, as I am on the vehicle with them and their driving incorporates my own safety - despite the fact that I am a student, I have commented on the manoeveure, and always had a favourable result, e.g. 'yeah, you're right, I probably should have thought about that a bit more...'

However, as has been pointed out, there are a lot of private Ambulance / RRV's / Responders out there whom the NHS also employ, on an ad-hoc basis, depending upon workload.

I have seen some frankly shocking examples of horrendous decision-making by some of these people when responding. However, it is not the fault of the NHS as such - they pay for supposedly 'professional' cover, but in reality sometimes get some complete clowns in return.

It may well be that these types of folk are what you have seen...

[Vipers]

R0G said:

not fair to judge all by one but I would have been in touch with their boss asap

Agree.

[Byteme]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

I might just also chip in with my own experience here...

I'm a final-year Student Paramedic with the NHS / University route of training. I spend probably 75% of my time on placement in NHS vehicles - both full-blown Ambulances, and RRV fast response cars.

I do know that all NHS employees go through a pretty comprehensive blue-light driving course, the rules of which, on the whole, seems to stay with all the drivers I have been out with so far. A small minority can occasionally take one or two risks that I would personally have deemed 'inappropriate' - and when they have done, as I am on the vehicle with them and their driving incorporates my own safety - despite the fact that I am a student, I have commented on the manoeveure, and always had a favourable result, e.g. 'yeah, you're right, I probably should have thought about that a bit more...'

However, as has been pointed out, there are a lot of private Ambulance / RRV's / Responders out there whom the NHS also employ, on an ad-hoc basis, depending upon workload.

I have seen some frankly shocking examples of horrendous decision-making by some of these people when responding. However, it is not the fault of the NHS as such - they pay for supposedly 'professional' cover, but in reality sometimes get some complete clowns in return.

It may well be that these types of folk are what you have seen...

I'm a final-year Student Paramedic with the NHS / University route of training. I spend probably 75% of my time on placement in NHS vehicles - both full-blown Ambulances, and RRV fast response cars.

I do know that all NHS employees go through a pretty comprehensive blue-light driving course, the rules of which, on the whole, seems to stay with all the drivers I have been out with so far. A small minority can occasionally take one or two risks that I would personally have deemed 'inappropriate' - and when they have done, as I am on the vehicle with them and their driving incorporates my own safety - despite the fact that I am a student, I have commented on the manoeveure, and always had a favourable result, e.g. 'yeah, you're right, I probably should have thought about that a bit more...'

However, as has been pointed out, there are a lot of private Ambulance / RRV's / Responders out there whom the NHS also employ, on an ad-hoc basis, depending upon workload.

I have seen some frankly shocking examples of horrendous decision-making by some of these people when responding. However, it is not the fault of the NHS as such - they pay for supposedly 'professional' cover, but in reality sometimes get some complete clowns in return.

It may well be that these types of folk are what you have seen...

Thanks for such an informative post.

When one of these lunatics is coming at you head on with alternating main beam flash and blue leds there's little chance of identifying who they are. In yesterday's example however it was definitely our local NHS. The driver's expression indicated he was st scared and totally out of control. Only the car's DSC saved an accident.

Despite what you assert the NHS IS always responsible for the "clowns" you have seen as well as the qualified drivers you've challenged.

I'm more concerned now that when I started this thread.

[Byteme]

daz6215 said:

So do you think traditional driver training is working then? What steps need to be taken to ensure risk taking is reduced when the instructor is gone?

I've no doubt that driver training is in any way a problem but I do feel that motivation and aptitude is significant.

Fireman Sam has a huge truck that makes a mess and pisses of his crew if it turns over. Tall bodied Ambulance Amy is much the same although inboard journeys must temper outward ones once a patient is on-board.

Paramedic Pete has none of those restrictions and often sits parked at the centre of expected activity playing Angry Birds, tweeting or updating Facebook on his phone. Bored senseless he then has a task, believes the blue lights and sirens makes him immortal, and is 90% concentrated on his patient.

Sam and Amy are doing a great job so what is Pete getting off on?

The whole model, in my view, is wrong within an urban environment simply because the progress of a car is little different to that of a conventional ambulance that has the added benefit of height making their approach visible. Of course fast response from a motorcycle is another subject.

As for your question, perhaps data comparison, driver/forward facing cameras, G sensors that alert a managers.

A far cheaper method would be to teach candidates that reckless and unnecessary hero tactics have little influence on arrival time.

[mph1977]

Martin4x4 said:

Are you sure these are NHS Paramedics (who receive advanced driver training) and not First Responders (who generally do not)?

Can't say I've noticed this but did hear an interesting and possible related item on R4 News last week. The Ambulance service has lost around 1 in 10 paramedics in recent years because of funding cuts and pay freezes. This is more acute in the senior ranks because they can easily get better jobs in the private sector as glorified first aiders with better pay, sociable hours and less stress.

There are NO NHS sanctioend schemes which allow response driving / use of warnign devices / moving exemptions by un trained drivers . this is why the majority of First responder schemes doen;t use warning devices even if they have marked vehicles.

a small part of the leaching of Paramedics from the NHS to the private sector is more about short sightedness over higher hourly rate and the ability to scam the tax man over 'self employed' status and forgetting the rest of the package ( shock horror siDickshead will explode there). some of the private sector regular jobs are money for old rope ( covering track days , testing etc)...

the 'senior ranks' line is rubbish , many NHS Ambulance Managers from could not get a job anywhere near the same levle outside the Ambulance service never mind outside the NHS ... IHCD certificates ( even tutor) mean nothing outside the ambulance service.

[CrutyRammers]

Top use of generalisation and emotive language OP, have you considered a career in journalism?

[daz6215]

Byteme said:

As for your question, perhaps data comparison, driver/forward facing cameras, G sensors that alert a managers.

A far cheaper method would be to teach candidates that reckless and unnecessary hero tactics have little influence on arrival time.

Many emergency service vehicles already have black box data recorders fitted, these devices may provide data after the event but are unlikely to change driver behaviour prior to it.

Risk takers exist in all occupations not just driving, look no further than the risks and reckless behaviour that the bankers have taken and how many peoples lives have been destroyed as a result. There needs to be cultural change at a strategic level that permeates through the rest of the organisation and the staff at the lower levels need to be included in the decision making process if it is to be successfully implemented. So what's has been the motivating factor for the bansters to take risks? A bonus that no doubt is more than the annual salary of most of the paramedics, what is the motivating factor for a paramedic behind the wheel taking risks (granted they shouldn't) a sense of duty probably.

So the point is risk taking is inevitable, everyone does it in some form or another, what we need to do is actively manage it to keep it to an acceptable level. In fact if we were so risk averse in this country in the 1940s we would all be speaking German because sometimes we have to balance the risk of doing something with the risk of doing nothing, whilst being aware if it all goes wrong you need to take responsibility for the decision that you made be it right or wrong. Unfortunately bankers have an uncanny knack of diverting the blame whilst you or I would no doubt end up in trap 1.

[Byteme]

In every instance the unnecessary risk taking I have seen has involved vehicles with just the driver/paramedic. I wonder whether this is significant and if having a passenger, for all manner of reasons, would've had any influence.

[Medic-one]

daz6215 said:

Many emergency service vehicles already have black box data recorders fitted,

Exactly, and they can tell them everything, time, speed, use of lights/horn/indicators etc, and even the G-forces during an impact.

So if you're really that worried about their driving and you think you're right, then note down either the registration plate or the call sign, and email/ring up with your complaint.

The Trust will have to follow it up, and you should get feedback.

I had one of these "complaints" for a member of the public a few years ago, who stated that i came flying past shop X on road X on such and such date, 'doing as least 70 mp/h!! in this 30 zone'.

One of my managers approached me, stating someone said i was doing 70+ on that road, i said impossible and told them to collect the data which they did, which showed me doing 44 mp/h past that shop on that road at that time, and the moany member of the public got a nice litter letter saying thanks for bringing this to our attention, however on date such and such the ambulance car in question was actualy bla bla bla.

So if someone is really driving dangerously and/or past their capabilities they can find out and deal with it, or find out and prove you wrong, depending on what the actual truth is.

[R_U_LOCAL]

When I worked at my police driving school, a member of the public rang up one day to complain about the manner of driving of one of the advanced wing cars which, on the day in question, was being used by some week 3 students and one of my instructor colleagues.

On their return to the office at the end of the day, the Sergeant challenged my colleague "why were you doing 130mph on the A66 near Brough this morning?"

"Because it was raining " came the reply.

[Byteme]

Medic-one said:

daz6215 said:

Many emergency service vehicles already have black box data recorders fitted,

Exactly, and they can tell them everything, time, speed, use of lights/horn/indicators etc, and even the G-forces during an impact.

So if you're really that worried about their driving and you think you're right, then note down either the registration plate or the call sign, and email/ring up with your complaint.

The Trust will have to follow it up, and you should get feedback.

I had one of these "complaints" for a member of the public a few years ago, who stated that i came flying past shop X on road X on such and such date, 'doing as least 70 mp/h!! in this 30 zone'.

One of my managers approached me, stating someone said i was doing 70+ on that road, i said impossible and told them to collect the data which they did, which showed me doing 44 mp/h past that shop on that road at that time, and the moany member of the public got a nice litter letter saying thanks for bringing this to our attention, however on date such and such the ambulance car in question was actualy bla bla bla.

So if someone is really driving dangerously and/or past their capabilities they can find out and deal with it, or find out and prove you wrong, depending on what the actual truth is.

My comment with respect to G force analysis was aimed more at unnecessary and inappropriate driver inputs where there is no impact. I wonder if he reviewed his performance later in the day when he had time to reflect. G force triggers would allow a manager to debrief, or even monitor events live and there is no reason that steering angle input data could not be superimposed.

As for forensic analysis, you'd be surprised how much is retained by the vehicle's own ECU's. Of course "para" boss will never see this.

I'm a pretty good judge of speed and earlier in the thread quoted "In this instance it had little to do with speed as I doubt was doing any more than 30mph limit appropriate for the area". My concern was due to the look of terror on his face and unnecessary use of violent steering inputs. Of far greater concern is what happens when he tries the same thing at 40/50/60 or more mph.

I have seen so many examples of poor driving by these guys that not only do I try to get as far away from them as possible I also try and make contingencies such is my lack of confidence in their driving ability.

[Byteme]

R_U_LOCAL said:

When I worked at my police driving school, a member of the public rang up one day to complain about the manner of driving of one of the advanced wing cars which, on the day in question, was being used by some week 3 students and one of my instructor colleagues.

On their return to the office at the end of the day, the Sergeant challenged my colleague "why were you doing 130mph on the A66 near Brough this morning?"

"Because it was raining " came the reply.

Classic!

At the slower end of the spectrum I once worked with a policeman seconded to my employer who was soon asked why he couldn't keep up. His answer was that he didn't know how to change up in a car with a manual transmission.

Edited by Byteme on Monday 13th October 22:20

[glasgowrob]

question is though, as already touched on above was it a NHS vehicle or a contractor?


theres a shed load of private companies now doing rrv and ambulance work both for the NHS and others.

I have witnessed first hand the skills of some of these "contractors" lets just say I wouldn't let them take me to hospital even If I was at deaths door, i'd rather get the bus


for the most part these contractors will used vehicles which are more or less identical to their nhs colleauges, in terms of livery and will still be stickered up as an ambulance or paramedic response vehicle etc etc.

[Byteme]

glasgowrob said:

question is though, as already touched on above was it a NHS vehicle or a contractor?


theres a shed load of private companies now doing rrv and ambulance work both for the NHS and others.

I have witnessed first hand the skills of some of these "contractors" lets just say I wouldn't let them take me to hospital even If I was at deaths door, i'd rather get the bus


for the most part these contractors will used vehicles which are more or less identical to their nhs colleauges, in terms of livery and will still be stickered up as an ambulance or paramedic response vehicle etc etc.

This thought never occurred to me when I put up the original post however who they are/work for doesn't make much difference when they're driving like they just stole it.

Unless private contractors are compelled to use pink livery and strobes while using the telletubbies theme song as a siren there's little to suggest who is approaching you at warp factor 9.

[glasgowrob]

Byteme said:

This thought never occurred to me when I put up the original post however who they are/work for doesn't make much difference when they're driving like they just stole it.

Unless private contractors are compelled to use pink livery and strobes while using the telletubbies theme song as a siren there's little to suggest who is approaching you at warp factor 9.

world of difference in training and standards in fairness though,

I can honestly say I've yet to see a bad nhs fast response or ambulance driver,

[Byteme]

glasgowrob said:

world of difference in training and standards in fairness though,

I can honestly say I've yet to see a bad nhs fast response or ambulance driver,

Apologies if I got this wrong but in my defence I've always said I believed that training was never an issue. My initial remarks seem to have have opened a topic that needs wider discussion.

PCSO's on foot are one issue but do we really have plastic paramedics in charge of the same missiles/vehicles as the highest level of Police drivers?

If so, I never realised this, and I'm sure neither do 99% of the public put at risk by these lunatics.

[mph1977]

glasgowrob said:

Byteme said:

This thought never occurred to me when I put up the original post however who they are/work for doesn't make much difference when they're driving like they just stole it.

Unless private contractors are compelled to use pink livery and strobes while using the telletubbies theme song as a siren there's little to suggest who is approaching you at warp factor 9.

world of difference in training and standards in fairness though,

I can honestly say I've yet to see a bad nhs fast response or ambulance driver,

you really are talking several shades of rot there

the standards across the ambulance sector as a whole are considerably better than they were a few yearsago, CQC regulation in England has seen to that by removing significant numbers of the W Mitties as has organisational change in a number of the major Private and third sector providers - meaning that attitudes towards training have really improved, in no small part due to the fear that S 19 of the road safety act would either be enacted or repealed and replaced with another piece of primary or secondary legislation which actually addresses and formalises the training of emergency drivers..

I've seen a number of poorly judged actions by NHS crews as I have from crews working for private and third sector services.

it is also important to note that there is a vanishingly small number of Paramedics in the UK who haven;t been trained by the NHS at some point in their careers , as all the HE courses are run in partnership with NHS services providing the the vastest majority of the placements which leaves a very small number of people who 'grandfathered' on shaky evidence in 1999.

As Far as I am aware all the suib contractors used on 999 work have ot show driving training that is either the IHCD/ Edexcel award or equivalent

[Byteme]

mph1977 said:

glasgowrob said:

Byteme said:

This thought never occurred to me when I put up the original post however who they are/work for doesn't make much difference when they're driving like they just stole it.

Unless private contractors are compelled to use pink livery and strobes while using the telletubbies theme song as a siren there's little to suggest who is approaching you at warp factor 9.

world of difference in training and standards in fairness though,

I can honestly say I've yet to see a bad nhs fast response or ambulance driver,

you really are talking several shades of rot there

the standards across the ambulance sector as a whole are considerably better than they were a few yearsago, CQC regulation in England has seen to that by removing significant numbers of the W Mitties as has organisational change in a number of the major Private and third sector providers - meaning that attitudes towards training have really improved, in no small part due to the fear that S 19 of the road safety act would either be enacted or repealed and replaced with another piece of primary or secondary legislation which actually addresses and formalises the training of emergency drivers..

I've seen a number of poorly judged actions by NHS crews as I have from crews working for private and third sector services.

it is also important to note that there is a vanishingly small number of Paramedics in the UK who haven;t been trained by the NHS at some point in their careers , as all the HE courses are run in partnership with NHS services providing the the vastest majority of the placements which leaves a very small number of people who 'grandfathered' on shaky evidence in 1999.

As Far as I am aware all the suib contractors used on 999 work have ot show driving training that is either the IHCD/ Edexcel award or equivalent

Why do fast responders scare the st out of me? Increasingly because of insider postings like this.

WTF! An "expert" unable to put a single sentence together.

I despair!

[anonymous-user]

We live about 300yds from a busy police station. One of the main route's out for the police traffic is along a busy, narrow high street which during the daytime is busy with kids attending the two primary schools along it's length, elderly persons crossing the road to get to the local hospital, and during the night time is full of parked cars to one side and lots of inebriated young folk frequenting the many bars and restaurants.

Yet frequently the police hammer up and down this road at 50mph + when responding to some incident !!!!!

I phoned the police station to ask if they could 'keep a lid on things' along this section before a pedestrian gets maimed or killed, but was completely fobbed off with "all out drivers are well trained and stick to ACPO guidelines which permits them to do 50mph in a 30mph zone" and "these cars are normally responding to an incident where someone could be in danger, e.g. a woman being threatened by her violent husband etc". So it seems in order to respond quicker to some 'low life' scum having a barney in the council estate up the road, the police are prepared to put in danger the lives of the innocent and the most vulnerable in our community?

We'll I'm sorry, but how ever well trained or observant you are as a driver, however flashy your blue light are, 50mph in close proximity to children and drunk people is downright unacceptable in my book. Absolutely disgusting and they should show some restraint.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 14th October 16:57