Advice on switching to RWD
Discussion
Hello,
I've recently bought my first rear wheel drive car (a BMW 3 series) - after many years of exclusively driving front wheel drive cars.
My question to the advanced drivers on here is: what (if anything) should I be doing differently now I've got a RWD car?
I vaguely recall from when some point in my training that accelerating out of bends is OK in a FWD car (from which I assume it's not such a good idea when it is the other end pushing?). Anything else I should know?
Thanks,
a303
I've recently bought my first rear wheel drive car (a BMW 3 series) - after many years of exclusively driving front wheel drive cars.
My question to the advanced drivers on here is: what (if anything) should I be doing differently now I've got a RWD car?
I vaguely recall from when some point in my training that accelerating out of bends is OK in a FWD car (from which I assume it's not such a good idea when it is the other end pushing?). Anything else I should know?
Thanks,
a303
If you already have a decent technique, you shouldn't really need to change anything. Sort everything out before you get to the corner - position, speed and gear - then accelerate through the bend. The rearward weight transfer helps increase traction on the driven wheels, and because the front wheels are not driven, you'll find the steering feelback purer and more communicative.
Modern stability systems take all the fear out of RWD, so just go out and enjoy.
Modern stability systems take all the fear out of RWD, so just go out and enjoy.
You won't notice as much difference as you possibly expect. The steering will be nicer.
You will actually get better traction out of a bend in rwd under normal conditions. 3 series are fairly benign, especially newer models, and only serious abuse or abnormal road conditions will have it sideways.
Just drive normally and enjoy!
You will actually get better traction out of a bend in rwd under normal conditions. 3 series are fairly benign, especially newer models, and only serious abuse or abnormal road conditions will have it sideways.
Just drive normally and enjoy!
a303 said:
I've recently bought my first rear wheel drive car (a BMW 3 series) - after many years of exclusively driving front wheel drive cars.
My question to the advanced drivers on here is: what (if anything) should I be doing differently now I've got a RWD car?
I vaguely recall from when some point in my training that accelerating out of bends is OK in a FWD car (from which I assume it's not such a good idea when it is the other end pushing?). Anything else I should know?
Funny you should mention a BMW - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPCGnkApnDUMy question to the advanced drivers on here is: what (if anything) should I be doing differently now I've got a RWD car?
I vaguely recall from when some point in my training that accelerating out of bends is OK in a FWD car (from which I assume it's not such a good idea when it is the other end pushing?). Anything else I should know?
You only need a different technique if you get very seriously out of shape: which you shouldn't be doing on the road.
If your 3 series is modern and has traction control, the only difference you'll really notice if you overcook it, is the dashboard lighting up like a Christmas tree whilst the car corrects things for you.
If you don't have traction control, you are going to have to go through a learning cycle, the basic difference is overcook it, and the rear of the car will attempt to overtake the front (you could spin the car), or at the very least hang the rear out, which if on a traffic island for example, with cars alongside you, will mean you'll hit them, if on a bend you could present your car side on to oncoming traffic.
Apart from that, the car will feel much better balanced, one set of wheels to drive it (the correct ones), and one to steer it.
Front wheel drive only really came about as it is cheaper to produce.
You'll also never experience that god awful torque steering front wheel drives are famous for.
Can you guess which I prefer ?
If you don't have traction control, you are going to have to go through a learning cycle, the basic difference is overcook it, and the rear of the car will attempt to overtake the front (you could spin the car), or at the very least hang the rear out, which if on a traffic island for example, with cars alongside you, will mean you'll hit them, if on a bend you could present your car side on to oncoming traffic.
Apart from that, the car will feel much better balanced, one set of wheels to drive it (the correct ones), and one to steer it.
Front wheel drive only really came about as it is cheaper to produce.
You'll also never experience that god awful torque steering front wheel drives are famous for.
Can you guess which I prefer ?
Under normal driving, you'll mainly notice that the RWD car feels more balanced, has a tighter lock and and doesn't torque steer under acceleration. This is all good.
With 'spirited but sensible' road driving, you'll find that RWD generally has less turn-in understeer than an FWD car (all modern production cars are engineered with default understeer) - accelerating after turn-in will tend to tighten the cars line (the ultimate expression of which is oversteer) whereas accelerating in a FWD car tends to widen the line. I say 'tends' as modern suspension engineering can take the experience either way. That's probably going to be your biggest relearning experience. Once used to it, you'll realise that a RWD car can be steered from both ends, with considerable subtlety. This too is good.
Both are susceptible to lift-off oversteer, for slightly different reasons. RWD tends to be less severe. Unless you're in a 911, in which case a different set of laws of physics apply ;-)
If you drive in snow, ignore all claims that traction control on RWD cars will help - it just makes them sit and sulk. In fact, if you haven't got winter tyres in snow, you'll be crying for your FWD in very short order. Worst of the lot are RWD drive BMWs on low-profile M Sport setups - I know, I've had many and live in the Highlands. Winter tyres make a massive difference - between going nowhere and wondering what all the fuss was about.
There are some decent explanations here: http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/ - albeit mostly aimed at track drivers - many of the techniques discussed are inadvisable on the public road!
HTH and enjoy the ride…
With 'spirited but sensible' road driving, you'll find that RWD generally has less turn-in understeer than an FWD car (all modern production cars are engineered with default understeer) - accelerating after turn-in will tend to tighten the cars line (the ultimate expression of which is oversteer) whereas accelerating in a FWD car tends to widen the line. I say 'tends' as modern suspension engineering can take the experience either way. That's probably going to be your biggest relearning experience. Once used to it, you'll realise that a RWD car can be steered from both ends, with considerable subtlety. This too is good.
Both are susceptible to lift-off oversteer, for slightly different reasons. RWD tends to be less severe. Unless you're in a 911, in which case a different set of laws of physics apply ;-)
If you drive in snow, ignore all claims that traction control on RWD cars will help - it just makes them sit and sulk. In fact, if you haven't got winter tyres in snow, you'll be crying for your FWD in very short order. Worst of the lot are RWD drive BMWs on low-profile M Sport setups - I know, I've had many and live in the Highlands. Winter tyres make a massive difference - between going nowhere and wondering what all the fuss was about.
There are some decent explanations here: http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/ - albeit mostly aimed at track drivers - many of the techniques discussed are inadvisable on the public road!
HTH and enjoy the ride…
Technomad said:
Under normal driving, you'll mainly notice that the RWD car feels more balanced, has a tighter lock and and doesn't torque steer under acceleration. This is all good.
With 'spirited but sensible' road driving, you'll find that RWD generally has less turn-in understeer than an FWD car (all modern production cars are engineered with default understeer) - accelerating after turn-in will tend to tighten the cars line (the ultimate expression of which is oversteer) whereas accelerating in a FWD car tends to widen the line. I say 'tends' as modern suspension engineering can take the experience either way. That's probably going to be your biggest relearning experience. Once used to it, you'll realise that a RWD car can be steered from both ends, with considerable subtlety. This too is good.
Both are susceptible to lift-off oversteer, for slightly different reasons. RWD tends to be less severe. Unless you're in a 911, in which case a different set of laws of physics apply ;-)
If you drive in snow, ignore all claims that traction control on RWD cars will help - it just makes them sit and sulk. In fact, if you haven't got winter tyres in snow, you'll be crying for your FWD in very short order. Worst of the lot are RWD drive BMWs on low-profile M Sport setups - I know, I've had many and live in the Highlands. Winter tyres make a massive difference - between going nowhere and wondering what all the fuss was about.
There are some decent explanations here: http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/ - albeit mostly aimed at track drivers - many of the techniques discussed are inadvisable on the public road!
HTH and enjoy the ride…
Top post there, lots of good stuff.With 'spirited but sensible' road driving, you'll find that RWD generally has less turn-in understeer than an FWD car (all modern production cars are engineered with default understeer) - accelerating after turn-in will tend to tighten the cars line (the ultimate expression of which is oversteer) whereas accelerating in a FWD car tends to widen the line. I say 'tends' as modern suspension engineering can take the experience either way. That's probably going to be your biggest relearning experience. Once used to it, you'll realise that a RWD car can be steered from both ends, with considerable subtlety. This too is good.
Both are susceptible to lift-off oversteer, for slightly different reasons. RWD tends to be less severe. Unless you're in a 911, in which case a different set of laws of physics apply ;-)
If you drive in snow, ignore all claims that traction control on RWD cars will help - it just makes them sit and sulk. In fact, if you haven't got winter tyres in snow, you'll be crying for your FWD in very short order. Worst of the lot are RWD drive BMWs on low-profile M Sport setups - I know, I've had many and live in the Highlands. Winter tyres make a massive difference - between going nowhere and wondering what all the fuss was about.
There are some decent explanations here: http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/ - albeit mostly aimed at track drivers - many of the techniques discussed are inadvisable on the public road!
HTH and enjoy the ride…
IMO RWD is nicer, and probably a bit safer if you know what you're doing. The important thing is to not drive like a dick, but that's the same regardless of which end is driven.
If you do happen to own a skid pan I would recommend taking some time to approach the limit of cornering grip under acceleration, just to understand what it feels like so you don't get caught out later on.
My first car was a Dolomite Sprint (in 2004!) which was a bit of an experience after the 1.5 non-turbo diesel Corsa I learnt in.
Thanks all for taking the time to reply to my question.
I take the point that with modern ESP (which my car has) and a sensible attitude (which I have!) I'm unlikely to come majorly unstuck... However, I confess to feeling less confident in terms of dealing with RWD in inclement weather. Pehaps it is just the reputation RWD cars generally have for oversteering if you accidentally overdo it.
It is reassuring to hear there's not a great deal that I need to do differently; sounds like I do just need to go and enjoy it!
Thanks,
a303
I take the point that with modern ESP (which my car has) and a sensible attitude (which I have!) I'm unlikely to come majorly unstuck... However, I confess to feeling less confident in terms of dealing with RWD in inclement weather. Pehaps it is just the reputation RWD cars generally have for oversteering if you accidentally overdo it.
It is reassuring to hear there's not a great deal that I need to do differently; sounds like I do just need to go and enjoy it!
Thanks,
a303
One thing that has not been mentioned is how they handle in snow. While the electronics may help in normal driving, you may find it impossible to get up hills covered in snow as the rear wheels just spin up, resulting in a tail wag but not getting anywhere. In these circumstances a FWD would normally manage to scrabble up the slope.
Winter tyres help.
Steve
Winter tyres help.
Steve
The ultimate driving machine. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfmQ8tTIKXU
Winter tyres make a massive difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOv2g5qTpvA
The problem is, in most of England south of the Pennines, we hardly ever get enough snow on a regular basis to justify a separate set of wheels and tyres. Continental Europe has a very different climate which explains why winter tyres are compulsory in certain countries and highly recommended in others- http://conti-central.co.uk/winter-tyres/winter-dri...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfmQ8tTIKXU
Winter tyres make a massive difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOv2g5qTpvA
The problem is, in most of England south of the Pennines, we hardly ever get enough snow on a regular basis to justify a separate set of wheels and tyres. Continental Europe has a very different climate which explains why winter tyres are compulsory in certain countries and highly recommended in others- http://conti-central.co.uk/winter-tyres/winter-dri...
sjmmarsh said:
One thing that has not been mentioned is how they handle in snow. While the electronics may help in normal driving, you may find it impossible to get up hills covered in snow as the rear wheels just spin up, resulting in a tail wag but not getting anywhere. In these circumstances a FWD would normally manage to scrabble up the slope.
Winter tyres help.
Steve
True for most RWD (especially bmws). i find in mid or rear engine vehicles (like my mr2) this is not as much of a problem although you can still get caught out without winter tyres (and even with in rare cases).Winter tyres help.
Steve
I didnt find the switch to rwd to be as daunting as i'd anticipated. I heard many people talking about the mr2 being tail happy and snappy before i bought it. But get a decent set of tyres and its only really a problem if you're really dumb and drive exceptionally badly. Steering feels much purer and feel is much better in rwd.
TC ESP etc will probably save your bacon in most cases but i find even without any traction systems its still fine.
As mentioned before, advanced driver training or a skidpan day in your car will help you experience what its like when the back does let go in a safe environment.
I recently attended a skid pan day, for no other reason than it looked like fun.
It was, and also corrected a few things that I was doing wrong.
If a modern 3 series was notably hard to drive they'd be in hedges everywhere given their ubiquity.
However, a skid pan day may give you more confidence and can't be a bad thing.
It was, and also corrected a few things that I was doing wrong.
If a modern 3 series was notably hard to drive they'd be in hedges everywhere given their ubiquity.
However, a skid pan day may give you more confidence and can't be a bad thing.
Edited by Mr E on Sunday 14th December 22:20
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