You can't just tell a driver to drive better
Discussion
Having spent the last 16 years or so professionally Instructing racers and track day drivers,
it is always frustrating when the going gets 'interesting', to see public road drivers
in ditches and through fences with little idea of how they got there.
To help rectify this I have been delivering through R3Rockingham, measured and professional
skid training which along with on-road instruction truly provides drivers with an unforgettable
memory that (if they are in any way human) they shoud not want to repeat on the public roads.
It seems there are some ADIs and others in places of influence that disagree with this.
In fact 'skills-based' training is frowned upon.
On that basis maybe we should not teach our children to swim, just in case they swim
somewhere dangerous. (God forbid if they ever fall in a canal/river etc.)
Driving is a skill.
And like any skill, done well it can be enjoyed with a sense of achievement and pride.
You wouldn't learn to ride a bike or hanglide online would you?
Only by physically experiencing something will most drivers really 'get-it'.
Especially if backed up by suitable workshop style learning.
As the discussion says…
'You can't just TELL a driver to drive better'
it is always frustrating when the going gets 'interesting', to see public road drivers
in ditches and through fences with little idea of how they got there.
To help rectify this I have been delivering through R3Rockingham, measured and professional
skid training which along with on-road instruction truly provides drivers with an unforgettable
memory that (if they are in any way human) they shoud not want to repeat on the public roads.
It seems there are some ADIs and others in places of influence that disagree with this.
In fact 'skills-based' training is frowned upon.
On that basis maybe we should not teach our children to swim, just in case they swim
somewhere dangerous. (God forbid if they ever fall in a canal/river etc.)
Driving is a skill.
And like any skill, done well it can be enjoyed with a sense of achievement and pride.
You wouldn't learn to ride a bike or hanglide online would you?
Only by physically experiencing something will most drivers really 'get-it'.
Especially if backed up by suitable workshop style learning.
As the discussion says…
'You can't just TELL a driver to drive better'
Edited by Steve Lewis on Thursday 5th March 17:21
Steve Lewis said:
Having spent the last 16 years or so professionally Instructing racers and track day drivers,
it is always frustrating when the going gets 'interesting', to see public road drivers
in ditches and through fences with little idea of how they got there.
To help rectify this I have been delivering through R3Rockingham, measured and professional
skid training which along with on-road instruction truly provides drivers with an unforgettable
memory that (if they are in any way human) they shoud not want to repeat on the public roads.
It seems there are some ADIs and others places of influence that disagree with this.
In fact 'skills-based' training is frowned upon.
On that basis maybe we should not teach our children to swim, just in case they swim
somewhere dangerous. (God forbid if they ever fall in a canal/river etc.)
Driving is a skill.
And like any skill, done well it can be enjoyed with a sense of achievement and pride.
You wouldn't learn to ride a bike or hanglide online would you?
Only by physically experiencing something will most drivers really 'get-it'.
Especially if backed up by suitable workshop style learning.
As the discussion says…
'You can't just TELL a driver to drive better'
I think you are misunderstanding (or perhaps they are) the basic message.it is always frustrating when the going gets 'interesting', to see public road drivers
in ditches and through fences with little idea of how they got there.
To help rectify this I have been delivering through R3Rockingham, measured and professional
skid training which along with on-road instruction truly provides drivers with an unforgettable
memory that (if they are in any way human) they shoud not want to repeat on the public roads.
It seems there are some ADIs and others places of influence that disagree with this.
In fact 'skills-based' training is frowned upon.
On that basis maybe we should not teach our children to swim, just in case they swim
somewhere dangerous. (God forbid if they ever fall in a canal/river etc.)
Driving is a skill.
And like any skill, done well it can be enjoyed with a sense of achievement and pride.
You wouldn't learn to ride a bike or hanglide online would you?
Only by physically experiencing something will most drivers really 'get-it'.
Especially if backed up by suitable workshop style learning.
As the discussion says…
'You can't just TELL a driver to drive better'
It's not that experiential learning of a skill is a bad thing, it's how it's accessed & delivered that is important.
It shouldn't be the learning of a physical skill in isolation. it should be the learning of a physical skill in a way that addresses & is sympathetic to the development of positive attitudes & beliefs around the use of the physical skills.
And you're right "You can't just TELL a driver to have a good attitude & beliefs".
It requires an understanding of the psychology involved to assist in positive development during the learning process.
Sounds like a good thing to me. Alone it won't make you a good driver, but it will surely help people to understand the consequence of losing control better. Most people have no idea of the momentum and energy they are carrying, which is why so many lose control as soon as there's the tiniest bit of snow. It's not until you have a slide that you can comprehend the forces involved, I don't think.
Do you really want the first time you experience the car understeering on a wet or icey road to be the drive to work on a busy road near a bus stop, or on the safe environment of a skid pan with an instructor next to you.
I know which i'd prefer.
if skills based training is such a bad idea why to airline pilots spend hours every year in simulators training for when things go wrong. its so you can instinctively react to what is happening rather than going WTF Bang.
When I bought my first TVR all those years ago the first thing i did was book a day on the wet handling course at MIRA, certainly kept me out of the hedge a few times.
My Daughter isnt at driving age yet, but when she is I'll make sure she knows how to handle a car when things go wrong as well as how to drive in traffic ( her mother can do the road teaching as an ex Driving instructor!)
Which reminds me Steve How old does she need to be to come and see you.
I know which i'd prefer.
if skills based training is such a bad idea why to airline pilots spend hours every year in simulators training for when things go wrong. its so you can instinctively react to what is happening rather than going WTF Bang.
When I bought my first TVR all those years ago the first thing i did was book a day on the wet handling course at MIRA, certainly kept me out of the hedge a few times.
My Daughter isnt at driving age yet, but when she is I'll make sure she knows how to handle a car when things go wrong as well as how to drive in traffic ( her mother can do the road teaching as an ex Driving instructor!)
Which reminds me Steve How old does she need to be to come and see you.
Graham said:
if skills based training is such a bad idea why to airline pilots spend hours every year in simulators training for when things go wrong. its so you can instinctively react to what is happening rather than going WTF Bang.
That simulator training is primarily about coping with mechanical failures, not recovering from exceeding the aircraft's limits.At one time trainee private pilots, at least in the US, were given a small amount of training on how to recover from spins. This was changed to training on how to avoid spins and the number of spin accidents actually dropped.
I'm not actually against Skid training providing it doesn't get in the way of roadcraft. But you can't learn road driving on a track.
Driving skills are both physical and cerebral.
Our courses are designed to cater for this.
Sadly we are being tarred with the same brush as a corporate experience/thrill, by people who have not been and seen.
Skidding/spinning alone is not sufficient for best learning purposes and needs to be put in true context of general road driving.
That is why we combine training with road tuition.
We sit beside drivers almost every day and it is only once they have lost control that they truly realise how quickly and easily this
can happen because of their input to the vehicle.
By actually feeling the sensation of fear and loss of control, (but in a controlled environment), really provides the driver with a true
respect for their actions in the car. Believe me it certainly gets their attention better than a video or words can.
As to sitting in traffic jams all the time…
We still seem to be crashing.
Sadly, Killed and seriously injured road stats are up 4% as of Sept 2014.
Over 6,000 drivers were killed or seriously injured last year while driving as part of their working day.
Cars may be built safer these days but we are not driving them any better.
Our courses are designed to cater for this.
Sadly we are being tarred with the same brush as a corporate experience/thrill, by people who have not been and seen.
Skidding/spinning alone is not sufficient for best learning purposes and needs to be put in true context of general road driving.
That is why we combine training with road tuition.
We sit beside drivers almost every day and it is only once they have lost control that they truly realise how quickly and easily this
can happen because of their input to the vehicle.
By actually feeling the sensation of fear and loss of control, (but in a controlled environment), really provides the driver with a true
respect for their actions in the car. Believe me it certainly gets their attention better than a video or words can.
As to sitting in traffic jams all the time…
We still seem to be crashing.
Sadly, Killed and seriously injured road stats are up 4% as of Sept 2014.
Over 6,000 drivers were killed or seriously injured last year while driving as part of their working day.
Cars may be built safer these days but we are not driving them any better.
I agree with you: I'm involved with young driver training - http://www.under17-carclub.co.uk/ & http://www.under17driver.co.uk/ - & we include dealing with loss of control or "skid pan" training in our syllabus. The kids won't progress until/unless they do it, although we've never had anyone object anyway. Perhaps it's about how it's marketed? Skid might seem glamorous, dangerous & exciting, whereas the reality is often very different...except the potentially dangerous bit...
And you're right, you can't "tell" anyone to "do something better" - you either show them, help them or shut up, in my view.
And you're right, you can't "tell" anyone to "do something better" - you either show them, help them or shut up, in my view.
Driving is not respected as a skill by most drivers and even the stupidest, least aware and most agressive idiots can obtain driving licences.
Driving has come to be regarded as some kind of basic human right and not a privilege to be earned by safe, competent behaviour behind the wheel.
The standard of the driving test is too low (no motorway driving requirement, no driving after dark) and examiners are too reluctant to fail candidates.
Coupled with an almost complete lack of traffic policing to catch lawbreakers it's hardly surprising standards of driving are so lousy in the UK.
It kind of mirrors a more general attitude in society of accommodating feckless, stupid, irresponsible people who do what they like without holding them to account for the consequences of their behaviour.
Driving has come to be regarded as some kind of basic human right and not a privilege to be earned by safe, competent behaviour behind the wheel.
The standard of the driving test is too low (no motorway driving requirement, no driving after dark) and examiners are too reluctant to fail candidates.
Coupled with an almost complete lack of traffic policing to catch lawbreakers it's hardly surprising standards of driving are so lousy in the UK.
It kind of mirrors a more general attitude in society of accommodating feckless, stupid, irresponsible people who do what they like without holding them to account for the consequences of their behaviour.
Graham said:
Do you really want the first time you experience the car understeering on a wet or icey road to be the drive to work on a busy road near a bus stop, or on the safe environment of a skid pan with an instructor next to you.
I know which i'd prefer.
if skills based training is such a bad idea why to airline pilots spend hours every year in simulators training for when things go wrong. its so you can instinctively react to what is happening rather than going WTF Bang.
When I bought my first TVR all those years ago the first thing i did was book a day on the wet handling course at MIRA, certainly kept me out of the hedge a few times.
My Daughter isnt at driving age yet, but when she is I'll make sure she knows how to handle a car when things go wrong as well as how to drive in traffic ( her mother can do the road teaching as an ex Driving instructor!)
Which reminds me Steve How old does she need to be to come and see you.
It's interesting that you mention the aircraft industry. Aviation insurers have been looking at this & the results aren't what people would traditionally have thought. They are finding that attitudes etc are a better indicator of risk than traditional skills/flying time. I know which i'd prefer.
if skills based training is such a bad idea why to airline pilots spend hours every year in simulators training for when things go wrong. its so you can instinctively react to what is happening rather than going WTF Bang.
When I bought my first TVR all those years ago the first thing i did was book a day on the wet handling course at MIRA, certainly kept me out of the hedge a few times.
My Daughter isnt at driving age yet, but when she is I'll make sure she knows how to handle a car when things go wrong as well as how to drive in traffic ( her mother can do the road teaching as an ex Driving instructor!)
Which reminds me Steve How old does she need to be to come and see you.
Flying hours experience make you less likely to have a small bump, but they don't equate with you being a lower risk of having a big one.
The mistakes made when it comes to big bumps are down to attitudes/beliefs/personal management as opposed to skill set & experience.
Some Scandinavian countries thought adding skid control to the curriculum would be a good thing in reducing collisions. They've found that there's far more required for any additional skill to be of value than the physical skill itself.
[i]Skid training - a symbol for change of educational focus
The Swedish national curriculum of the mandatory skid training has since it became mandatory focused on skill training to handle skids, to perform evasive manoeuvres, optimal use of the brakes etc., heavily focused on critical situations. In 1988 a Norwegian report was published (Glad 1988) which showed that a similar skid training program in Norway increased the accident involvement among male drivers. This warning was the introduction of more than 15 years of research and development, which now has resulted in a new set of regulations concerning skid-training. The set comprises a new curriculum for skid training, demands for special education of skid-pan instructors etc. The goals of the curriculum is still to provide some elementary skills in driving on low friction but to focus on risk awareness and the need to drive with large safety margins in order to prevent critical situations to occur. [/i]
Look up HERMES.
There is a realisation & sea change across Europe in respect of how people are educated in car use & what the primary focus in training needs to be. That doesn't mean the physical skill set is ignored, but they are lower level skills in the total skill set required for good road driving.
Also look at the Goals For Drive Education (GDE) matrix.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 12th March 06:28
BGarside said:
Driving is not respected as a skill by most drivers and even the stupidest, least aware and most agressive idiots can obtain driving licences.
Driving has come to be regarded as some kind of basic human right and not a privilege to be earned by safe, competent behaviour behind the wheel.
The standard of the driving test is too low (no motorway driving requirement, no driving after dark) and examiners are too reluctant to fail candidates.
Coupled with an almost complete lack of traffic policing to catch lawbreakers it's hardly surprising standards of driving are so lousy in the UK.
It kind of mirrors a more general attitude in society of accommodating feckless, stupid, irresponsible people who do what they like without holding them to account for the consequences of their behaviour.
Examiners are too reluctant to fail candidates?Driving has come to be regarded as some kind of basic human right and not a privilege to be earned by safe, competent behaviour behind the wheel.
The standard of the driving test is too low (no motorway driving requirement, no driving after dark) and examiners are too reluctant to fail candidates.
Coupled with an almost complete lack of traffic policing to catch lawbreakers it's hardly surprising standards of driving are so lousy in the UK.
It kind of mirrors a more general attitude in society of accommodating feckless, stupid, irresponsible people who do what they like without holding them to account for the consequences of their behaviour.
The figures show they fail more than they pass doesn't it?
About 47% pass rates for cars at the moment.
It does depend on how it's taught but also how frequently you can practice those skills so they remain 'instinctive'. I've done a couple of traditional skid-pan days but while fun in themselves I am under no illusion I would react instantly in the right way should things go soft-fruit shaped.
It does sound like you do more to address attitude than most of these training sessions but is it enough? I can quite appreciate the value in shocking the otherwise cocky driver who thinks 'he can handle it'.
Oh and by the way...in aviation part of the basic Private Pilots course used to include recovery from spins...until the CAA realised it was better to teach and practice recovery from incipient spins (i.e. the very early symptoms). Is that something you focus on?
It does sound like you do more to address attitude than most of these training sessions but is it enough? I can quite appreciate the value in shocking the otherwise cocky driver who thinks 'he can handle it'.
Oh and by the way...in aviation part of the basic Private Pilots course used to include recovery from spins...until the CAA realised it was better to teach and practice recovery from incipient spins (i.e. the very early symptoms). Is that something you focus on?
Folks, please be clear here.
There is skid control and skid avoidance.
To be blunt it is obvious which is best and most logical.
Skills-based training (and the Swedish results) were based on schools teaching skid control.
To be again very honest, most skids are not controllable but ARE avoidable.
It is lack of awareness, experience and driver attitude that causes loss of control.
We are not delivering a 'corporate' drift jolly.
We have feedback that confirms everyone who leaves our courses will never forget the feeling of
impotence and fear while they were out of control of their vehicle, vowing that they would never
want to repeat that on the public roads.
As we say…
You can't just tell a driver to drive better.
As a parent I well remember the feeling of handing over the car keys to my Son who had just
passed his driving test. Can you honestly say we are sending these novice drivers out there
for the first time with the best possible knowledge and awareness of how things can go sadly wrong.
To answer an earier question, ANY driver will learn something and we can teach from 14yrs old in the
belief that the earlier a young driver realises they are not immortal the better.
We have had some youngsters leave and report back that they have told their parents off for tailgating
and driving too quickly in poor weather conditions. That is surely a step in the right direction for
Road Risk Reduction.
There is skid control and skid avoidance.
To be blunt it is obvious which is best and most logical.
Skills-based training (and the Swedish results) were based on schools teaching skid control.
To be again very honest, most skids are not controllable but ARE avoidable.
It is lack of awareness, experience and driver attitude that causes loss of control.
We are not delivering a 'corporate' drift jolly.
We have feedback that confirms everyone who leaves our courses will never forget the feeling of
impotence and fear while they were out of control of their vehicle, vowing that they would never
want to repeat that on the public roads.
As we say…
You can't just tell a driver to drive better.
As a parent I well remember the feeling of handing over the car keys to my Son who had just
passed his driving test. Can you honestly say we are sending these novice drivers out there
for the first time with the best possible knowledge and awareness of how things can go sadly wrong.
To answer an earier question, ANY driver will learn something and we can teach from 14yrs old in the
belief that the earlier a young driver realises they are not immortal the better.
We have had some youngsters leave and report back that they have told their parents off for tailgating
and driving too quickly in poor weather conditions. That is surely a step in the right direction for
Road Risk Reduction.
BGarside said:
Driving is not respected as a skill by most drivers and even the stupidest, least aware and most agressive idiots can obtain driving licences.
Driving has come to be regarded as some kind of basic human right and not a privilege to be earned by safe, competent behaviour behind the wheel.
The standard of the driving test is too low (no motorway driving requirement, no driving after dark) and examiners are too reluctant to fail candidates.
Coupled with an almost complete lack of traffic policing to catch lawbreakers it's hardly surprising standards of driving are so lousy in the UK.
It kind of mirrors a more general attitude in society of accommodating feckless, stupid, irresponsible people who do what they like without holding them to account for the consequences of their behaviour.
I have not read the entire thread as yet, but this post does seem to agree with my experiences/observations on the roads.Driving has come to be regarded as some kind of basic human right and not a privilege to be earned by safe, competent behaviour behind the wheel.
The standard of the driving test is too low (no motorway driving requirement, no driving after dark) and examiners are too reluctant to fail candidates.
Coupled with an almost complete lack of traffic policing to catch lawbreakers it's hardly surprising standards of driving are so lousy in the UK.
It kind of mirrors a more general attitude in society of accommodating feckless, stupid, irresponsible people who do what they like without holding them to account for the consequences of their behaviour.
I have long said "if you 'legislate for idiots' you will only generate more idiots". In various industries there are so many "safety" systems (guards with cut out switches etc) now that stop you doing something stupid you no longer have to think "am I about to do something stupid?" it is now assumed that if what you are doing is stupid the "system" will take care of you. (AKA Health and Safety gone mad), there is an element of this with modern drivers and cars IMHO.
I'm not saying that these systems are a bad thing in themselves, but it does stop the Human having to think about what they are doing? Some one (jokingly?) suggested the best safety system would be a spike on the steering wheel so if you had an accident you would be impaled on it, this would have the effect of concentrating the drivers mind on doing everything possible to avoid an accident.
I personally think that the skid (aviodance etc) training can only be a good thing, When I was in my early 20's I almost formed a small rally team with a few mates, and spent a couple of winters (before the roads were routinely gritted) practising slow speed skid control, I have found this has stood me in very good stead for driving, about 5 years ago I went to Ireland over Christmas when they had the REALLY cold snap just before we got it in the January, during 5 days where the maximum air temp was minus 5C I did 1500 miles all on snow and ice, with no incidents. I even managed a 3 point turn on a road that when I got out of the car I had to hold onto the car to stay standing uprigt!
just my few quids worth.
martine said:
It does depend on how it's taught but also how frequently you can practice those skills so they remain 'instinctive'. I've done a couple of traditional skid-pan days but while fun in themselves I am under no illusion I would react instantly in the right way should things go soft-fruit shaped.
Yes, you need to condition yourself to consider weight transfer, without actually having to think about it. People knowing what could happen is important, if only to help prevent them getting into those situations.
-Drivers being surprised/caught out and losing control due to tail-gating/braking too late/sawing at or over-turning the wheel/lift off oversteer etc., (mostly through ignorance) is a problem.
BGarside said:
Driving is not respected as a skill by most drivers and even the stupidest, least aware and most agressive idiots can obtain driving licences.
Driving has come to be regarded as some kind of basic human right and not a privilege to be earned by safe, competent behaviour behind the wheel.
The standard of the driving test is too low (no motorway driving requirement, no driving after dark) and examiners are too reluctant to fail candidates.
Coupled with an almost complete lack of traffic policing to catch lawbreakers it's hardly surprising standards of driving are so lousy in the UK.
It kind of mirrors a more general attitude in society of accommodating feckless, stupid, irresponsible people who do what they like without holding them to account for the consequences of their behaviour.
I agree that driving education needs to be improved. In my opinion, road driving education should begin at school (as an essential 'life skill'), not the day after one becomes old enough to drive.Driving has come to be regarded as some kind of basic human right and not a privilege to be earned by safe, competent behaviour behind the wheel.
The standard of the driving test is too low (no motorway driving requirement, no driving after dark) and examiners are too reluctant to fail candidates.
Coupled with an almost complete lack of traffic policing to catch lawbreakers it's hardly surprising standards of driving are so lousy in the UK.
It kind of mirrors a more general attitude in society of accommodating feckless, stupid, irresponsible people who do what they like without holding them to account for the consequences of their behaviour.
Edited by Darsettian on Friday 10th April 01:34
Edited by Darsettian on Friday 10th April 01:39
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