Cornering Basics Part 5 - Controlling the Car
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree. I don't think anything in the original post was directly safety related (it wasn't unsafe either) it was about mechanical sympathy and understandung car balance. That indirectly leads to better safety but it would be a stretch to say that's why you posted. It would be nearer the mark to say it's a trailer for your book. 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You beat me with a crafty edit.I agreed that the original post was part of a series on the basics of cornering. i.e. All those who drift off (no pun intended) into posts about trail braking, limit handling etc have missed the point of the original post.
But like you say - whatever.
R_U_LOCAL said:
In operating these controls, the key aim is to maintain vehicle balance – we want to accelerate out of the corner as quickly as possible whilst maintaining grip with the road surface. This involves balancing the two main forces which are competing for the tyres grip – turning the car and accelerating the car.
I'm not convinced that accelerating out of a corner as quickly as possible is directly a safety message. As I said its indirectly about safety.
We'll have to agree to disagree then.
My opinion is that trail braking is generally not necessary on the road, whatever configuration of car you're driving.
If your corner entry requires braking to maximise front-end grip at turn-in, it may be an indication that your entry speed is too high and/or you haven't assessed the severity of the bend correctly.
Don't think, however, that I'm suggesting your technique is "wrong" - I usually try to avoid "right" and "wrong" in discussions on different techniques - if it works for you, then stick with it. For someone starting down the road of improving their driving, however, i believe my technique is a good, safe one which also, if executed well, feels like a good technique.
My opinion is that trail braking is generally not necessary on the road, whatever configuration of car you're driving.
If your corner entry requires braking to maximise front-end grip at turn-in, it may be an indication that your entry speed is too high and/or you haven't assessed the severity of the bend correctly.
Don't think, however, that I'm suggesting your technique is "wrong" - I usually try to avoid "right" and "wrong" in discussions on different techniques - if it works for you, then stick with it. For someone starting down the road of improving their driving, however, i believe my technique is a good, safe one which also, if executed well, feels like a good technique.
Yes, quite a bit.
The technique I'm advocating may not be for everyone - you need to think of it in the correct context.
For a driver who has only previously received training for licence aquisition, who has then gained some experience on their own, but is looking to improve, the principles of safe, quick cornering are much easier to master if they can be broken down into individual phases.
My objection to turning in on the brakes is that for someone who is developing their driving - going from everyday driver to something a bit more advanced - it requires too many seperate actions to be co-ordinated at once. Braking, changing down, matching revs, turning, smoothly releasing the brakes towards the apex, smoothly picking up the power and managing the shifting weight.
Try teaching that to a novice advanced driver and you'll completely lose them. One or two may have the natural ability to pick it up with some practice, but its far too much for most drivers to co-ordinate at once.
As I previously mentioned, these cornering posts, as with all the other stuff I write, is aimed at anyone - no matter what experience level they're at - who wants to improve their driving.
I could write seperate posts on how to drive all sorts of different vehicles with different engine and drive configurations, but I try to keep my advice as simple and straightforward as possible.
Do you have much experience with driver training/development?
The technique I'm advocating may not be for everyone - you need to think of it in the correct context.
For a driver who has only previously received training for licence aquisition, who has then gained some experience on their own, but is looking to improve, the principles of safe, quick cornering are much easier to master if they can be broken down into individual phases.
My objection to turning in on the brakes is that for someone who is developing their driving - going from everyday driver to something a bit more advanced - it requires too many seperate actions to be co-ordinated at once. Braking, changing down, matching revs, turning, smoothly releasing the brakes towards the apex, smoothly picking up the power and managing the shifting weight.
Try teaching that to a novice advanced driver and you'll completely lose them. One or two may have the natural ability to pick it up with some practice, but its far too much for most drivers to co-ordinate at once.
As I previously mentioned, these cornering posts, as with all the other stuff I write, is aimed at anyone - no matter what experience level they're at - who wants to improve their driving.
I could write seperate posts on how to drive all sorts of different vehicles with different engine and drive configurations, but I try to keep my advice as simple and straightforward as possible.
Do you have much experience with driver training/development?
R_U_LOCAL said:
For a driver who has only previously received training for licence aquisition, who has then gained some experience on their own, but is looking to improve, the principles of safe, quick cornering are much easier to master if they can be broken down into individual phases.
My objection to turning in on the brakes is that for someone who is developing their driving - going from everyday driver to something a bit more advanced - it requires too many seperate actions to be co-ordinated at once. Braking, changing down, matching revs, turning, smoothly releasing the brakes towards the apex, smoothly picking up the power and managing the shifting weight.
Try teaching that to a novice advanced driver and you'll completely lose them. One or two may have the natural ability to pick it up with some practice, but its far too much for most drivers to co-ordinate at once.
As I previously mentioned, these cornering posts, as with all the other stuff I write, is aimed at anyone - no matter what experience level they're at - who wants to improve their driving.
Ok, so the methods you describe are for people who might want to improve from "novice" level, but that doesn't mean that taking things further is somehow not correct.My objection to turning in on the brakes is that for someone who is developing their driving - going from everyday driver to something a bit more advanced - it requires too many seperate actions to be co-ordinated at once. Braking, changing down, matching revs, turning, smoothly releasing the brakes towards the apex, smoothly picking up the power and managing the shifting weight.
Try teaching that to a novice advanced driver and you'll completely lose them. One or two may have the natural ability to pick it up with some practice, but its far too much for most drivers to co-ordinate at once.
As I previously mentioned, these cornering posts, as with all the other stuff I write, is aimed at anyone - no matter what experience level they're at - who wants to improve their driving.
"Braking, changing down, matching revs, turning, smoothly releasing the brakes towards the apex, smoothly picking up the power and managing the shifting weight."
-is surely something for drivers to aspire to, non?
Surely if this thread was majoring on safety, we'd be advocating modest corner speeds in order that the driver CAN do almost anything mid-corner (lift off, accelerate, even brake pretty hard) without chucking the car into the scenery
Any cornering speed where an imbalance causes an off was clearly too quick in the first place
However, I agree that regardless of the cornering speed, its generally not a good idea to provoke an imbalance, unless your name begins with "K" and ends with "en Block"...
Going back to the OP, I have to agree that transitioning a bend under power can be hugely satisfying. I recently had a Quaife diff fitted to my FWD car in an attempt to quell understeer - booting it from the apex is now immense fun, especially in the wet
Any cornering speed where an imbalance causes an off was clearly too quick in the first place
However, I agree that regardless of the cornering speed, its generally not a good idea to provoke an imbalance, unless your name begins with "K" and ends with "en Block"...
Going back to the OP, I have to agree that transitioning a bend under power can be hugely satisfying. I recently had a Quaife diff fitted to my FWD car in an attempt to quell understeer - booting it from the apex is now immense fun, especially in the wet
Nigel_O said:
Surely if this thread was majoring on safety, we'd be advocating modest corner speeds in order that the driver CAN do almost anything mid-corner (lift off, accelerate, even brake pretty hard) without chucking the car into the scenery
Therein lies the paradox. "Advanced Driving" is notionally about safe driving, but the reality is that most driving enthusiasts like pressing on a bit. I certainly do.
Good observation and car control can aid safety in 99% of driving, but they also allow for good progress at a rate of knots to be made given the opportunity -and even the Advanced examiners I have encountered are keen on this.
MC Bodge said:
Therein lies the paradox.
"Advanced Driving" is notionally about safe driving, but the reality is that most driving enthusiasts like pressing on a bit. I certainly do.
Good observation and car control can aid safety in 99% of driving, but they also allow for good progress at a rate of knots to be made given the opportunity -and even the Advanced examiners I have encountered are keen on this.
And there are some, like me, who are too fond of their driving licence to drive fast on public roads. In that case, there is a lot to be said for taking enjoyment from driving very safely and keeping the car balanced and smooth. It's strangely fun to think 'I could have done that stretch way faster but certainly no smoother'."Advanced Driving" is notionally about safe driving, but the reality is that most driving enthusiasts like pressing on a bit. I certainly do.
Good observation and car control can aid safety in 99% of driving, but they also allow for good progress at a rate of knots to be made given the opportunity -and even the Advanced examiners I have encountered are keen on this.
ORD said:
And there are some, like me, who are too fond of their driving licence to drive fast on public roads. In that case, there is a lot to be said for taking enjoyment from driving very safely and keeping the car balanced and smooth. It's strangely fun to think 'I could have done that stretch way faster but certainly no smoother'.
Quite. Most of my driving is like that. The smoothness is enhanced by methods not advocated by Advanced courses.Have to agree with the above
I took my advanced test back in 2000 after I bought my first 150+ mph car - Wifey was concerned that I'd stack it within a month and suggested I sign up for the IAM test
Having come from 20 years on bikes, I'd like to think that I was already half-decent, but I was pleasantly surprised at the net effect of the IAM tuition - I became faster across the ground, but with far better observation and anticipation, which made my progress SEEM less frenetic
I also became better at knowing WHEN to push on a bit and when to back off
I also agree that the majority of instructors were more than happy to allow some leniency when dealing with certain speed limits. Indeed, on my test, the (serving) copper engineered it so that we ended up ten miles from home by the time he declared that I'd passed, and then made a point of telling me he wanted to "see what the car would really do" on the rather nice A road home - restored my faith in IAM instructors / examiners after having a session a month earlier where the instructor applied the rules with no flexibility for the circumstances and conditions
I took my advanced test back in 2000 after I bought my first 150+ mph car - Wifey was concerned that I'd stack it within a month and suggested I sign up for the IAM test
Having come from 20 years on bikes, I'd like to think that I was already half-decent, but I was pleasantly surprised at the net effect of the IAM tuition - I became faster across the ground, but with far better observation and anticipation, which made my progress SEEM less frenetic
I also became better at knowing WHEN to push on a bit and when to back off
I also agree that the majority of instructors were more than happy to allow some leniency when dealing with certain speed limits. Indeed, on my test, the (serving) copper engineered it so that we ended up ten miles from home by the time he declared that I'd passed, and then made a point of telling me he wanted to "see what the car would really do" on the rather nice A road home - restored my faith in IAM instructors / examiners after having a session a month earlier where the instructor applied the rules with no flexibility for the circumstances and conditions
Nigel_O said:
However, I agree that regardless of the cornering speed, its generally not a good idea to provoke an imbalance, unless your name begins with "K" and ends with "en Block"...
I think there's a very small number of drivers on UK roads who can perfectly safely choose a moment to provoke and indulge in an imbalance and to those people everything is taken into account for their car, but that is massively, massively advanced stuff and totally at the other end of the scale to what the original post is all about.bennyboysvuk said:
Nigel_O said:
However, I agree that regardless of the cornering speed, its generally not a good idea to provoke an imbalance, unless your name begins with "K" and ends with "en Block"...
I think there's a very small number of drivers on UK roads who can perfectly safely choose a moment to provoke and indulge in an imbalance and to those people everything is taken into account for their car, but that is massively, massively advanced stuff and totally at the other end of the scale to what the original post is all about.RobM77 said:
I agree on all your points, but I wouldn't say it's 'massively advanced' (quoting the above), just a different skill set. 'Advanced' makes me think of IAM style road driving, i.e. what this forum is mainly about. I'd also have caution in calling drifting 'massively advanced' in the more colloquial sense of the word, because I think it probably takes less skill and practise than, for example, reaching RoSPA Gold standard. That's not my words, but the words of a friend of mine who is a professional racing driver who also does drift displays several times a week. He often says that motor racing takes a lot more skill than maintaining an imbalance at a lower speed (which he says for him just took a few weeks of practise), so I'm presuming the same applies to advanced road driving.
I'd have to agree with your friend in that putting in consistently fast lap times takes far more skill than a basic drift from a roundabout on the road, but like you say, they're different skill sets. Having seen the trouble that some drivers have on wet skid-pans though, I'd still say that a controlled slide would take a lot more practice for the average road-driver, which is why I said it was massively advanced. I think some drivers pick up subtle nuances from the car, the way it grips, the weight transfer, the road surface etc and for those people, car control comes to them much more easily. Others simply have no idea how much grip they have to play with and how it might change from surface to surface and in different weather conditions and so on. It's those people that I feel this thread was aimed at. i.e. get braking and gears done in a straight line before adding a little throttle for the corner.
bennyboysvuk said:
RobM77 said:
I agree on all your points, but I wouldn't say it's 'massively advanced' (quoting the above), just a different skill set. 'Advanced' makes me think of IAM style road driving, i.e. what this forum is mainly about. I'd also have caution in calling drifting 'massively advanced' in the more colloquial sense of the word, because I think it probably takes less skill and practise than, for example, reaching RoSPA Gold standard. That's not my words, but the words of a friend of mine who is a professional racing driver who also does drift displays several times a week. He often says that motor racing takes a lot more skill than maintaining an imbalance at a lower speed (which he says for him just took a few weeks of practise), so I'm presuming the same applies to advanced road driving.
I'd have to agree with your friend in that putting in consistently fast lap times takes far more skill than a basic drift from a roundabout on the road, but like you say, they're different skill sets. Having seen the trouble that some drivers have on wet skid-pans though, I'd still say that a controlled slide would take a lot more practice for the average road-driver, which is why I said it was massively advanced. I think some drivers pick up subtle nuances from the car, the way it grips, the weight transfer, the road surface etc and for those people, car control comes to them much more easily. Others simply have no idea how much grip they have to play with and how it might change from surface to surface and in different weather conditions and so on. It's those people that I feel this thread was aimed at. i.e. get braking and gears done in a straight line before adding a little throttle for the corner.
With regard to track driving (we'll come to road driving in a minute), in my opinion the two core skills to 'get it' (not be very quick necessarily, but just to get the basics) are a particular sensitivity to the car's balance and grip and an inherent understanding of plotting a path of least resistance through a corner, like a skier taking a slalom course. For example, if people don't have the former they tend to just wind on more lock when the car understeers or perhaps do nothing until it's too late during oversteer (usually the first one followed by a lift, then the other! ...see most of the 'ring crash videos on You Tube for examples of this); and if people don't understand the idea of carving the path of least resistance they tend to be all over the track and just never really understand the whole principle of driving fast.
I think that applies to road driving because the whole point of motor racing is to create as high a limit as possible in a corner and then drive it - for example a really good driver may be capable of taking a corner at 104mph, whereas a not so good driver might find he can't go quicker than 90mph without the car sliding around and making him even slower. If you're on the public road taking that corner in the same car at a more sedate 60mph, the first driver has a much bigger margin of safety than the second driver.
The reason that advanced driving (e.g. RoSPA, IAM etc) doesn't really teach much or any car control is that the second (slower) driver in the above example can more than make up for this difference in safety margin with good observation, good judgement, and suitable restraint. However, if the former (faster) driver can show suitable restraint in terms of his speed, then with the same level of advanced road driving ability he or she should be safer still. That's a point of view I have received much opposition for stating on here, but I stand by it.
RobM77 said:
The reason that advanced driving (e.g. RoSPA, IAM etc) doesn't really teach much or any car control is that the second (slower) driver in the above example can more than make up for this difference in safety margin with good observation, good judgement, and suitable restraint. However, if the former (faster) driver can show suitable restraint in terms of his speed, then with the same level of advanced road driving ability he or she should be safer still. That's a point of view I have received much opposition for stating on here, but I stand by it.
I agree with the gist of this. The safety bit of the original post was being able to understand and control grip and balance and therefore be able to increase the safety margin as and when desired and more importantly should be about being able to deal with unplanned changes - I'm sure there are plenty of accidents because drivers have needed to respond to unforeseen events mid corner.The feel good factor of pushing a car through under a bit of power or increasing the cornering speed should be side effects on public roads. There are other benefits to those who 'listen' to the balance and corners of their car. I've been with plenty of drivers that haven't noticed a slow puncture or a badly wearing tyre through the wheel yet sometimes I can sitting in the passenger seat.
RobM77 said:
However, if the former (faster) driver can show suitable restraint in terms of his speed, then with the same level of advanced road driving ability he or she should be safer still. That's a point of view I have received much opposition for stating on here, but I stand by it.
I'm surprised that people are so opposed to that point of view as it does make sense. I imagine that people would argue that if you drive to a particular standard then more complex car control skills should never be necessary.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff