Automatics - my driving is worse!
Discussion
I don't think I'd qualify anywhere as an advanced driver, but I do try to pay attention, read the situation in advance and control the car as best I can.
For a while now, I've been driving an auto (DSG actually), and I think I have come to the realisation that my driving is worse for it. In a manual, somehow the gears act as a "foundation" to planning and preparation. It's not so much that I don't perceive the potential hazards in an Auto, or consider how they might develop. It's just that without the need to plan gears, engine response etc, I find myself thinking "I'll wait a bit more and see how it evolves". In the cases where it evolves to something I need to act on, everything - position, speed, secondary checks etc - just get a bit more bunched up and hurried. In a manual I know I wont have the time to do all those plus a smooth change or two, so I start making preparations in case.
Does this make sense? Anyone else experienced what I mean?
And most importantly, any good tips on how to avoid it???
Thanks!
For a while now, I've been driving an auto (DSG actually), and I think I have come to the realisation that my driving is worse for it. In a manual, somehow the gears act as a "foundation" to planning and preparation. It's not so much that I don't perceive the potential hazards in an Auto, or consider how they might develop. It's just that without the need to plan gears, engine response etc, I find myself thinking "I'll wait a bit more and see how it evolves". In the cases where it evolves to something I need to act on, everything - position, speed, secondary checks etc - just get a bit more bunched up and hurried. In a manual I know I wont have the time to do all those plus a smooth change or two, so I start making preparations in case.
Does this make sense? Anyone else experienced what I mean?
And most importantly, any good tips on how to avoid it???
Thanks!
I regularly switch between my cars (manual and auto) and don't have that problem - I have however done quite a bit of advanced driver training...
I would suggest that if you are aware that this is an issue for you, you are ahead of most drivers in being quite perceptive.
To try and sort this out it would be really worth some training - why not speak to your local IAM / RoSPA organisation and do a course - that sounds as though it would be quite a simple thing to sort out
I would suggest that if you are aware that this is an issue for you, you are ahead of most drivers in being quite perceptive.
To try and sort this out it would be really worth some training - why not speak to your local IAM / RoSPA organisation and do a course - that sounds as though it would be quite a simple thing to sort out
I had been thinking about getting in touch with the local RoSPA group for a while - probably a good catalyst to do that. Also very interesting remark about switching between cars made me think - this is not by any means my first auto, but is the first time I've only had an auto - I don't recall this ever happening when I had both and regularly switched. So maybe that's another solution - get another car!
Regarding "ploughing on regardless" - it's not like that! I am not barreling on when I should be doing otherwise, or wouldn't be in a manual. Its just that some of the pre-preparation setup is left a little. I'm not braking or manoeuvring later, just that I might overlap a couple of actions in a way I wouldn't in a manual. I fear now that this will get blown out of all proportion, people envisaging me screeching to a halt in last-ditch efforts to avoid collisions.
Regarding "ploughing on regardless" - it's not like that! I am not barreling on when I should be doing otherwise, or wouldn't be in a manual. Its just that some of the pre-preparation setup is left a little. I'm not braking or manoeuvring later, just that I might overlap a couple of actions in a way I wouldn't in a manual. I fear now that this will get blown out of all proportion, people envisaging me screeching to a halt in last-ditch efforts to avoid collisions.
To pick up on another part of your post:
People usually do all those things sub-consciously - I know that's not always good, but they certainly shouldn't require the degree of specific thought that you indicate.
As such, as other have said, automatics suit most people better. The right gear, engine response, smooth changes etc all go away as the auto-box takes care of them.
RedSwede said:
It's just that without the need to plan gears, engine response etc, I find myself thinking "I'll wait a bit more and see how it evolves". In the cases where it evolves to something I need to act on, everything - position, speed, secondary checks etc - just get a bit more bunched up and hurried. In a manual I know I wont have the time to do all those plus a smooth change or two, so I start making preparations in case.
You're making it sound like you're a pilot, running through a check-list.People usually do all those things sub-consciously - I know that's not always good, but they certainly shouldn't require the degree of specific thought that you indicate.
As such, as other have said, automatics suit most people better. The right gear, engine response, smooth changes etc all go away as the auto-box takes care of them.
I'm having difficulty picturing this. Perhaps an example or two would help. What happens when you're approaching, say, a roundabout on a fast ring road where you're going to turn right? Or joining at a scissors junction?
I'm wondering whether, perhaps, in your manual car, you've been over-deliberate with your gear changes, and now the car does them for you, you have more free time than you know what to do with! With most hazards - take my roundabout example - you need only make one set of preparations for each gearchange: move to right lane (mirror, signal etc), adjust speed, decide it's a Go, drop from 5th to 3rd and away. The rest is observation. The automatic doesn't fundamentally change this - although I find that 5-3 change oddly satisfying.
What am I missing?
I'm wondering whether, perhaps, in your manual car, you've been over-deliberate with your gear changes, and now the car does them for you, you have more free time than you know what to do with! With most hazards - take my roundabout example - you need only make one set of preparations for each gearchange: move to right lane (mirror, signal etc), adjust speed, decide it's a Go, drop from 5th to 3rd and away. The rest is observation. The automatic doesn't fundamentally change this - although I find that 5-3 change oddly satisfying.
What am I missing?
I think I understand the issue. Without having to plan for a "physical" gearchange phase, you're subconsciously going directly from the speed (slowing) phase to the acceleration phase. This approach has led to you leaving the speed phase a little later because there is no need for you to leave enough time to change gear before moving on to the acceleration phase.
The net result being, in simple terms, you're decelerating or braking later than you would in a manual car. This makes you feel as though you're doing everything a bit last-minute because there isn't the brief pause for gearchange between the speed and acceleration phases.
There are a couple of easy solutions to this.
Firstly, you're driving a DSG equipped car. Use it in manual mode for a few weeks - manual mode only.
Instead of overlapping the braking and gearchanging phases (something which is generally quite acceptable in paddle-change semi-autos), try driving it like a normal manual. Brake first for a hazard, then come off the brakes and change gear with the paddles. If the hazard requires a block change down two or three gears, it will allow you to do so with two or three quick flicks of the paddle.
If you're struggling to do this using the paddles, most DSG boxes will allow you to use the gear selector to change up and down the box, so use that - it'll make it even more like a traditional manual.
Do this for a few weeks and you'll probably start to feel like you're no longer rushing into hazards and your diving will be a little more relaxed and balanced - even if you're pressing on.
When you go back to using it in automatic mode, the second tip is to subconsciously continue including the gear phase. Give the car time to get the gear before accelerating. Using it in manual mode for a bit will give you the feel for how long the car needs to get the gear.
If you find you're slipping back into your old ways again, stick it back in manual for a couple of days.
I'm conscious I've never written a proper guide to using automatic gearboxes - I'll stick it on the list.
The net result being, in simple terms, you're decelerating or braking later than you would in a manual car. This makes you feel as though you're doing everything a bit last-minute because there isn't the brief pause for gearchange between the speed and acceleration phases.
There are a couple of easy solutions to this.
Firstly, you're driving a DSG equipped car. Use it in manual mode for a few weeks - manual mode only.
Instead of overlapping the braking and gearchanging phases (something which is generally quite acceptable in paddle-change semi-autos), try driving it like a normal manual. Brake first for a hazard, then come off the brakes and change gear with the paddles. If the hazard requires a block change down two or three gears, it will allow you to do so with two or three quick flicks of the paddle.
If you're struggling to do this using the paddles, most DSG boxes will allow you to use the gear selector to change up and down the box, so use that - it'll make it even more like a traditional manual.
Do this for a few weeks and you'll probably start to feel like you're no longer rushing into hazards and your diving will be a little more relaxed and balanced - even if you're pressing on.
When you go back to using it in automatic mode, the second tip is to subconsciously continue including the gear phase. Give the car time to get the gear before accelerating. Using it in manual mode for a bit will give you the feel for how long the car needs to get the gear.
If you find you're slipping back into your old ways again, stick it back in manual for a couple of days.
I'm conscious I've never written a proper guide to using automatic gearboxes - I'll stick it on the list.
It mostly is subconscious - the detail/checklist is just so it can be put down in words on a forum... Probably the subconscious element is giving partial rise to the issue.
Taking the roundabout example, mostly it would be as you say. But lets factor in a roundabout with bad visibility for what is coming round. Maybe this is wrong, but the difference is I would be selecting the gear before my final decision (probably 2nd in this case due to low visibility). As I am selecting the gear, I would be getting a feel (not a checklist!) for the opportunities where I would be happiest accelerating onto the roundabout, slowing and feeding onto it or stopping and waiting. In an auto, without the need to make a (probably too deliberate) gear change, this may come slightly later and I just didn't have the same satisfaction with the manoeuvre.
Never mind! I don't think I am going to be able to explain this properly (or have it solved) by words alone. And it probably comes from changing gear too early/deliberately in a manual, so it's probably equally that element of my driving that is wrong.
EDIT: Was writing this as R_U_Local was responding. My goodness - that is exactly IT!!! And yes, I did try it in manual, but with full BGOL - so error there! I think that is a great idea - drive it exactly as I would a manual. But probably also shows how much value some lessons would be with an advanced driver if they can see straight to my issues like that. Very impressed that with two paragraphs you describe exactly what is going wrong, in a way I didn't quite see!
Taking the roundabout example, mostly it would be as you say. But lets factor in a roundabout with bad visibility for what is coming round. Maybe this is wrong, but the difference is I would be selecting the gear before my final decision (probably 2nd in this case due to low visibility). As I am selecting the gear, I would be getting a feel (not a checklist!) for the opportunities where I would be happiest accelerating onto the roundabout, slowing and feeding onto it or stopping and waiting. In an auto, without the need to make a (probably too deliberate) gear change, this may come slightly later and I just didn't have the same satisfaction with the manoeuvre.
Never mind! I don't think I am going to be able to explain this properly (or have it solved) by words alone. And it probably comes from changing gear too early/deliberately in a manual, so it's probably equally that element of my driving that is wrong.
EDIT: Was writing this as R_U_Local was responding. My goodness - that is exactly IT!!! And yes, I did try it in manual, but with full BGOL - so error there! I think that is a great idea - drive it exactly as I would a manual. But probably also shows how much value some lessons would be with an advanced driver if they can see straight to my issues like that. Very impressed that with two paragraphs you describe exactly what is going wrong, in a way I didn't quite see!
Edited by RedSwede on Thursday 9th April 13:14
Just picking up on your comment regarding roundabouts, the phrase "planning to stop but looking to go" is very much the case. On the approach you are checking the traffic to your right and coming from 12 o'clock (who may well aid you as they become blockers of other traffic entering from 3 o'clock), in order to plan if you can go or need to slow or stop on or before the give way lines.
Getting that approach view is pretty much the same as limit point analysis where you continue to run down your speed on the approach until the limit point point moves - and extends your view - from where you are able to accelerate safely. Planning to stop, looking to go.
You know, despite what is commonly said about driving an automatic gearbox vehicle, to do it well is an art in itself, as you appear to have found out!
Getting that approach view is pretty much the same as limit point analysis where you continue to run down your speed on the approach until the limit point point moves - and extends your view - from where you are able to accelerate safely. Planning to stop, looking to go.
You know, despite what is commonly said about driving an automatic gearbox vehicle, to do it well is an art in itself, as you appear to have found out!
james_gt3rs said:
In theory an auto should make your driving better as it removes complexity so you can focus on everything else...
Since changing from a manual-equipped car to one with an autobox, I think the above is more true. Whilst I still enjoy driving with a manual box, now that I'm used to my auto I feel that it's just as much of an 'extension of my body' and I know exactly how it'll react and what to do in order to get it to do what I want. Constantly being able to have both hands on the wheel is nice, as is the more relaxed way you can accelerate when you're in heavier traffic and whatnot.It's also nice to be able to just mash my right foot and it'll accelerate for as long as I want, should I be in the mood
Howard- said:
It's also nice to be able to just mash my right foot and it'll accelerate for as long as I want, should I be in the mood
Yep, that's nice when that's what you want 
. I do find my auto annoying though in that I can't demand, for example, maximum acceleration available in third gear. If I put my manual in third and mash the pedal, that's what I get, but the auto will kick down to second because it thinks full pedal travel means I want the most acceleration it can possible provide, but that's not what I'm after. I've driven various autos, DSGs, tiptronics and so on. They all offer different ways of controlling gears but I don't think I've come across one yet that offers a means of suppressing kick down.I think you're right - they all kick down when fully mashed. Then the "sportier" cars don't change up at the limiter - meaning potentially an up change almost immediately which you weren't expecting. I tend to very rarely go full kickdown even overtaking - I just press to the before the click - though so that's not a particular issue for me.
I think there are a lot of upsides to a DSG, and my title was probably hyperbole. In truth, here is one aspect of driving an automatic that I sometimes feel less than satisfied/comfortable about, but couldn't quite explain. I'm certainly not one of the vocal auto-bashers on here. I will work on my problem and for my daily driver almost certainly go auto again.
I actually think it can be less stressful for passengers, especially for overtakes. In a manual I will sometimes select a lower gear in preparation and then decide against it. I feel this kind of thing can put passengers at slight unease. Often they don't notice the positional/observation preparation, so with an auto you can be halfway past before they notice (not to mention removing any doubts about which gear and whether a mid-overtake change is a "good" idea)
I think there are a lot of upsides to a DSG, and my title was probably hyperbole. In truth, here is one aspect of driving an automatic that I sometimes feel less than satisfied/comfortable about, but couldn't quite explain. I'm certainly not one of the vocal auto-bashers on here. I will work on my problem and for my daily driver almost certainly go auto again.
I actually think it can be less stressful for passengers, especially for overtakes. In a manual I will sometimes select a lower gear in preparation and then decide against it. I feel this kind of thing can put passengers at slight unease. Often they don't notice the positional/observation preparation, so with an auto you can be halfway past before they notice (not to mention removing any doubts about which gear and whether a mid-overtake change is a "good" idea)
Having driven a traditional auto for 4 years and changed to a DSG which I've had for 3 weeks I can relate a little to what the OP is saying - I never felt I had the issue in the traditional auto and I think the difference may be the lack of engine braking and smoothness of the DSG compared to the auto box in my old car (Freelander 2 so perhaps not the most refined).
I'm assuming it's just a familiarity thing and I'll get used to it.
I'm assuming it's just a familiarity thing and I'll get used to it.
RedSwede said:
I think you're right - they all kick down when fully mashed.
No. I have driven many autos with manual modes and not one has done as you suggest when in its manual mode. My main reason for using manual modes in such vehicles is to be able to use large throttle openings away from a hazard without the box kicking down. That's how it works (examples from BMW, Mercedes, Jag, Audi, Porsche and McLaren come to mind immediately). Even when in auto mode, I always consider gear - but I also consider that the ability to brake right up to the slowest part of a hazard and be in the most suitable gear without the need for H&T is one of the benefits of an auto with manual mode. waremark said:
No. I have driven many autos with manual modes and not one has done as you suggest when in its manual mode. My main reason for using manual modes in such vehicles is to be able to use large throttle openings away from a hazard without the box kicking down. That's how it works (examples from BMW, Mercedes, Jag, Audi, Porsche and McLaren come to mind immediately). Even when in auto mode, I always consider gear - but I also consider that the ability to brake right up to the slowest part of a hazard and be in the most suitable gear without the need for H&T is one of the benefits of an auto with manual mode.
AgreedRedSwede said:
I think you're right - they all kick down when fully mashed. Then the "sportier" cars don't change up at the limiter - meaning potentially an up change almost immediately which you weren't expecting. I tend to very rarely go full kickdown even overtaking - I just press to the before the click - though so that's not a particular issue for me.
That doesn't solve my problem. Not all autos have kickdown switches anyway, but in those I've driven that do (including my current car) pressing through the switch is a guarantee that the car will change down - that's the point - but pressing up to but not through the switch is no guarantee that the car won't change down, which is what I'm after. I clearly need to widen my experience though because a couple of other posters seem to have driven two-pedal cars that can do what I'm talking about.RedSwede said:
I actually think it can be less stressful for passengers, especially for overtakes. In a manual I will sometimes select a lower gear in preparation and then decide against it.
You don't select a lower gear in preparation in autos too?Edited by SK425 on Monday 13th April 17:00
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