Are driving standards in the UK getting worse?

Are driving standards in the UK getting worse?

Author
Discussion

bobbsie

26 posts

103 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
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TonyRPH said:
But how many unmarked cars have you not seen do you think?

Because there seems to be a massive trend toward unmarked cars for road policing now - especially here in West Yorkshire.
where are they? on Mway or B roads? I wonder if they're Mway & dual carriageway focused?
I do think we could do with more road policing as speed cameras are very one dimensional.

MGJohn

10,203 posts

182 months

Wednesday 2nd September 2015
quotequote all
bobbsie said:
TonyRPH said:
But how many unmarked cars have you not seen do you think?

Because there seems to be a massive trend toward unmarked cars for road policing now - especially here in West Yorkshire.
where are they? on Mway or B roads? I wonder if they're Mway & dual carriageway focused?
I do think we could do with more road policing as speed cameras are very one dimensional.
So true. They are revenue generators and there's not a single instance of any one of those passive devices identifying bad or dangerous drivers, only those that exceed certain speed limits which is far from the same thing.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
quotequote all
MGJohn said:
bobbsie said:
TonyRPH said:
But how many unmarked cars have you not seen do you think?

Because there seems to be a massive trend toward unmarked cars for road policing now - especially here in West Yorkshire.
where are they? on Mway or B roads? I wonder if they're Mway & dual carriageway focused?
I do think we could do with more road policing as speed cameras are very one dimensional.
So true. They are revenue generators and there's not a single instance of any one of those passive devices identifying bad or dangerous drivers, only those that exceed certain speed limits which is far from the same thing.
yes Plus there's the main gripe I have with them: they're always placed where the most number of speeding drivers will be caught, i.e. where it's safer to speed and the speed limit is questionable, compared with areas where speeding is highly dangerous.

As an example: every morning I pass a primary school in a 30mph limit and 30mph is way too fast - it's rural so there are no pavements and the road is only just wide enough for one car to drive past the parked cars dropping children off. Nevertheless, every morning the people I've been stuck behind at 35mph in the preceding 60mph limit continue on in the 30mph limit past the Mums and kids at 35mph (sometimes 40!) whilst I slow to 15mph-20mph, or even less. I have never seen a speed camera or policeman outside this school, yet two miles further down the road there's a 30mph limit that continues beyond a residential area and outstays its welcome before a 50mph limit. Probably twice a week there's a 'safety' camera van parked up where the 30mph turns to a 50mph limit. I don't think I'm generally cynical as a person, but that's just illogical and stupid. I've no problem with them policing any 30mph limit that they want to, but when there's a camera in that one and nothing outside the primary school something's seriously wrong. Not only is this showing a lack of care for true road safety, it seriously damages any respect for UK policing that people would have otherwise had.

Another thing that gets me is dangerously parked safety camera vans. The aforementioned van is completely blocking a pedestrian bridge over a stream, which he's clearly accessed by driving on the pavement that leads up to it. The other week I found a 'safety' camera van parked at the edge of the A303 in rush hour with two wheels in the road over the white line! Traffic was brushing mere centimetres from this van at 70mph!

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
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RobM77 said:
yes Plus there's the main gripe I have with them: they're always placed where the most number of speeding drivers will be caught, i.e. where it's safer to speed and the speed limit is questionable, compared with areas where speeding is highly dangerous.

<some good examples of the hypocrisy>
yes Indeed the place I pass most days is on a formerly NSL A road, not wide, not many opportunities for an overtake, only one decent straight with good visibility. It became a 50 which was not too bad as there are a few questionable places where it was a good idea to peg it back, now it's 40 which for most of the length is obviously too low. Even their stats to justify the 40 limit and cameras showed that the 85 percentile speed was 50.

Do they park in the eminently suitable spaces where there's a succession of entrances including one to an industrial estate with slow turning lorries just round a bend on the approach? Or the approach to a caravan site entrance again round a bend? Nope. Tucked into a miniscule corner one wheel half on half off the verge peeking down the one decent straight.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
quotequote all
FiF said:
RobM77 said:
yes Plus there's the main gripe I have with them: they're always placed where the most number of speeding drivers will be caught, i.e. where it's safer to speed and the speed limit is questionable, compared with areas where speeding is highly dangerous.

<some good examples of the hypocrisy>
yes Indeed the place I pass most days is on a formerly NSL A road, not wide, not many opportunities for an overtake, only one decent straight with good visibility. It became a 50 which was not too bad as there are a few questionable places where it was a good idea to peg it back, now it's 40 which for most of the length is obviously too low. Even their stats to justify the 40 limit and cameras showed that the 85 percentile speed was 50.

Do they park in the eminently suitable spaces where there's a succession of entrances including one to an industrial estate with slow turning lorries just round a bend on the approach? Or the approach to a caravan site entrance again round a bend? Nope. Tucked into a miniscule corner one wheel half on half off the verge peeking down the one decent straight.
yes This is clearly not a localised problem!

To get the thread back on topic, this sort of traffic enforcement does not send out the right message to the public about road safety, and that's particularly pertinent because I, like others, believe that driving standards are most definitely falling.

MGJohn

10,203 posts

182 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
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FiF said:
RobM77 said:
yes Plus there's the main gripe I have with them: they're always placed where the most number of speeding drivers will be caught, i.e. where it's safer to speed and the speed limit is questionable, compared with areas where speeding is highly dangerous.

<some good examples of the hypocrisy>
yes Indeed the place I pass most days is on a formerly NSL A road, not wide, not many opportunities for an overtake, only one decent straight with good visibility. It became a 50 which was not too bad as there are a few questionable places where it was a good idea to peg it back, now it's 40 which for most of the length is obviously too low. Even their stats to justify the 40 limit and cameras showed that the 85 percentile speed was 50.

Do they park in the eminently suitable spaces where there's a succession of entrances including one to an industrial estate with slow turning lorries just round a bend on the approach? Or the approach to a caravan site entrance again round a bend? Nope. Tucked into a miniscule corner one wheel half on half off the verge peeking down the one decent straight.
Yes, there's numerous examples of the public sector well paid non-jobs for life types responsible for these various forms of illogical madness. Whatever next, simple roundabouts with dozens, nay hundreds of traffic lights where in the past the roundabout alone enable traffic to flow safely. How about placing bus stops alongside traffic islands so that when dropping off or picking up passengers, long queues of traffic build up whilst passengers are process on-off the bus. Maybe the intention was to avoid bus passengers not being run over as the traffic has stopped. It also encourages folks to cross behind or in front of the bus and get hit by traffic in the opposite direction. Seen that twice in the last twenty years. If they waited until the bus moved on they would be better placed to see the traffic without a massive bus restricting their view in all directions and chancing their luck when crossing the road.

Couple decades ago, traffic calming devices all over the local roads at huge cost. Soon after, all had to be modified as their aggressive design affected Ambulances passing over them where for the well being of those being carried, a smooth transition to Hospital would be best policy. Further "taxpayer will provide" expense. Those re-profiled traffic calming devices placed near all the schools allow school run mum in her Monster Truck sized SUV, White Van Man and you name it to pass over them without the need for reducing speed well over the limits shown on the road signs, some showing 20 mph! Precisely the sort of vehicles which need to really reduce their speed in key areas like schools. For best beneficial effect, that's where the Revenue Generating Cameras need to be located! But, no ... Clueless jobs-for-life types paid silly high wages, obviously not earned, really doing a fine job in taxpayers' best interest ... Not!

Then there's another public-sector the taxpayer must provide form of madness ... Oh what's the point...

Their all too frequently misplaced focus often has negative impact for the rest of us on that all enveloping "The taxpayers will, nay must provide" mindset basis.

Cliftonite

8,406 posts

137 months

Thursday 3rd September 2015
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
yes Plus there's the main gripe I have with them: they're always placed where the most number of speeding drivers will be caught, i.e. where it's safer to speed and the speed limit is questionable, compared with areas where speeding is highly dangerous.

As an example: every morning I pass a primary school in a 30mph limit and 30mph is way too fast - it's rural so there are no pavements and the road is only just wide enough for one car to drive past the parked cars dropping children off. Nevertheless, every morning the people I've been stuck behind at 35mph in the preceding 60mph limit continue on in the 30mph limit past the Mums and kids at 35mph (sometimes 40!) whilst I slow to 15mph-20mph, or even less. I have never seen a speed camera or policeman outside this school, yet two miles further down the road there's a 30mph limit that continues beyond a residential area and outstays its welcome before a 50mph limit. Probably twice a week there's a 'safety' camera van parked up where the 30mph turns to a 50mph limit. I don't think I'm generally cynical as a person, but that's just illogical and stupid. I've no problem with them policing any 30mph limit that they want to, but when there's a camera in that one and nothing outside the primary school something's seriously wrong. Not only is this showing a lack of care for true road safety, it seriously damages any respect for UK policing that people would have otherwise had.

Another thing that gets me is dangerously parked safety camera vans. The aforementioned van is completely blocking a pedestrian bridge over a stream, which he's clearly accessed by driving on the pavement that leads up to it. The other week I found a 'safety' camera van parked at the edge of the A303 in rush hour with two wheels in the road over the white line! Traffic was brushing mere centimetres from this van at 70mph!
Surely these are matters that should be raised with the police and brought to the attention of the local press?


RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Friday 4th September 2015
quotequote all
Cliftonite said:
RobM77 said:
yes Plus there's the main gripe I have with them: they're always placed where the most number of speeding drivers will be caught, i.e. where it's safer to speed and the speed limit is questionable, compared with areas where speeding is highly dangerous.

As an example: every morning I pass a primary school in a 30mph limit and 30mph is way too fast - it's rural so there are no pavements and the road is only just wide enough for one car to drive past the parked cars dropping children off. Nevertheless, every morning the people I've been stuck behind at 35mph in the preceding 60mph limit continue on in the 30mph limit past the Mums and kids at 35mph (sometimes 40!) whilst I slow to 15mph-20mph, or even less. I have never seen a speed camera or policeman outside this school, yet two miles further down the road there's a 30mph limit that continues beyond a residential area and outstays its welcome before a 50mph limit. Probably twice a week there's a 'safety' camera van parked up where the 30mph turns to a 50mph limit. I don't think I'm generally cynical as a person, but that's just illogical and stupid. I've no problem with them policing any 30mph limit that they want to, but when there's a camera in that one and nothing outside the primary school something's seriously wrong. Not only is this showing a lack of care for true road safety, it seriously damages any respect for UK policing that people would have otherwise had.

Another thing that gets me is dangerously parked safety camera vans. The aforementioned van is completely blocking a pedestrian bridge over a stream, which he's clearly accessed by driving on the pavement that leads up to it. The other week I found a 'safety' camera van parked at the edge of the A303 in rush hour with two wheels in the road over the white line! Traffic was brushing mere centimetres from this van at 70mph!
Surely these are matters that should be raised with the police and brought to the attention of the local press?
You have a fair point, yes. The above is fairly standard though isn't it? i.e. not newsworthy? There are loads of videos on You Tube of safety camera vans blocking pavements and whenever you see them they're on long straight roads on clear sunny days, when people rightly think it's ok to drive a bit faster. I don't think I've ever seen one outside a school or shopping area actually, or in the rain (assuming they work in the rain?).

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Friday 4th September 2015
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
or in the rain (assuming they work in the rain?).
I asked that question a long while back and never got an answer.

It was prompted by a regular shuttle job during showery weather along an infested road. In the sunny intervals window open and in action, raining either sat in the front doing the crossword / refs break or packing up to move on.

g3org3y

20,606 posts

190 months

Sunday 6th September 2015
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
Cliftonite said:
RobM77 said:
yes Plus there's the main gripe I have with them: they're always placed where the most number of speeding drivers will be caught, i.e. where it's safer to speed and the speed limit is questionable, compared with areas where speeding is highly dangerous.

As an example: every morning I pass a primary school in a 30mph limit and 30mph is way too fast - it's rural so there are no pavements and the road is only just wide enough for one car to drive past the parked cars dropping children off. Nevertheless, every morning the people I've been stuck behind at 35mph in the preceding 60mph limit continue on in the 30mph limit past the Mums and kids at 35mph (sometimes 40!) whilst I slow to 15mph-20mph, or even less. I have never seen a speed camera or policeman outside this school, yet two miles further down the road there's a 30mph limit that continues beyond a residential area and outstays its welcome before a 50mph limit. Probably twice a week there's a 'safety' camera van parked up where the 30mph turns to a 50mph limit. I don't think I'm generally cynical as a person, but that's just illogical and stupid. I've no problem with them policing any 30mph limit that they want to, but when there's a camera in that one and nothing outside the primary school something's seriously wrong. Not only is this showing a lack of care for true road safety, it seriously damages any respect for UK policing that people would have otherwise had.

Another thing that gets me is dangerously parked safety camera vans. The aforementioned van is completely blocking a pedestrian bridge over a stream, which he's clearly accessed by driving on the pavement that leads up to it. The other week I found a 'safety' camera van parked at the edge of the A303 in rush hour with two wheels in the road over the white line! Traffic was brushing mere centimetres from this van at 70mph!
Surely these are matters that should be raised with the police and brought to the attention of the local press?
You have a fair point, yes. The above is fairly standard though isn't it? i.e. not newsworthy? There are loads of videos on You Tube of safety camera vans blocking pavements and whenever you see them they're on long straight roads on clear sunny days, when people rightly think it's ok to drive a bit faster. I don't think I've ever seen one outside a school or shopping area actually, or in the rain (assuming they work in the rain?).
yes

Wholeheartedly agree.

jbsportstech

5,069 posts

178 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
yes Plus there's the main gripe I have with them: they're always placed where the most number of speeding drivers will be caught, i.e. where it's safer to speed and the speed limit is questionable, compared with areas where speeding is highly dangerous.

As an example: every morning I pass a primary school in a 30mph limit and 30mph is way too fast - it's rural so there are no pavements and the road is only just wide enough for one car to drive past the parked cars dropping children off. Nevertheless, every morning the people I've been stuck behind at 35mph in the preceding 60mph limit continue on in the 30mph limit past the Mums and kids at 35mph (sometimes 40!) whilst I slow to 15mph-20mph, or even less. I have never seen a speed camera or policeman outside this school, yet two miles further down the road there's a 30mph limit that continues beyond a residential area and outstays its welcome before a 50mph limit. Probably twice a week there's a 'safety' camera van parked up where the 30mph turns to a 50mph limit. I don't think I'm generally cynical as a person, but that's just illogical and stupid. I've no problem with them policing any 30mph limit that they want to, but when there's a camera in that one and nothing outside the primary school something's seriously wrong. Not only is this showing a lack of care for true road safety, it seriously damages any respect for UK policing that people would have otherwise had.

Another thing that gets me is dangerously parked safety camera vans. The aforementioned van is completely blocking a pedestrian bridge over a stream, which he's clearly accessed by driving on the pavement that leads up to it. The other week I found a 'safety' camera van parked at the edge of the A303 in rush hour with two wheels in the road over the white line! Traffic was brushing mere centimetres from this van at 70mph!
Total agree on the a303 Near sparkford they park on a hill and bend just on the edge of the dual track with two wheels on the bank/filter drain and two wheels the other side of the white line into the carriageway I amazed this is allowed. I cant see its an accident black spot and 80mph is not as dangerous as 40mph passed my daughters school but I never see a camera van policing the 30 mph by her school funny that. Avon and Somerset like get people to on the two lanes going away from the m5 motorway as its a 30 mph limit. It often places 30 is to low but they like to enforce it anyway.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
To be honest I don't think I've ever seen a speed camera, or even a policeman, outside a school, shopping centre, church or even before dangerous bend etc, but I see them all the time in places where the speed limit's questionable and it's almost certainly safe to drive faster. The message is quite clear: they wait where they're likely to catch you, not where it'll make a difference to road safety. It wouldn't bother me if it wasn't my tax money funding it and people were still being seriously injured and killed in road accidents on a daily basis.

Incidentally, do you remember when Swindon announced they were getting rid of speed cameras? A couple of years later I checked the accident statistics for the year before that announcement and the year after. They never reported the results in the press, but accidents had actually fallen after the removal of speed cameras. I'm willing to accept that the change was within expected statistical variances and perhaps the true thing to say is that they didn't change, but accidents certainly didn't go up as 'road safety' groups like Brake would have expected.

jbsportstech

5,069 posts

178 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
RobM77 said:
To be honest I don't think I've ever seen a speed camera, or even a policeman, outside a school, shopping centre, church or even before dangerous bend etc, but I see them all the time in places where the speed limit's questionable and it's almost certainly safe to drive faster. The message is quite clear: they wait where they're likely to catch you, not where it'll make a difference to road safety. It wouldn't bother me if it wasn't my tax money funding it and people were still being seriously injured and killed in road accidents on a daily basis.

Incidentally, do you remember when Swindon announced they were getting rid of speed cameras? A couple of years later I checked the accident statistics for the year before that announcement and the year after. They never reported the results in the press, but accidents had actually fallen after the removal of speed cameras. I'm willing to accept that the change was within expected statistical variances and perhaps the true thing to say is that they didn't change, but accidents certainly didn't go up as 'road safety' groups like Brake would have expected.
They pick some odd places round the back of RNAS Yeovilton is a very small village and upon leaving the A303 at the cartgate round about you go from a 60 to 30mph into a village with a few houses and a pub. You get some runners and cyclist but nothing else. Most MOD staff use to access the base and will carry more than 30 until they get to the junction.

In july noticed a police motorcyclist with speedcamera bike. I mean could you couldn't get a less populated 30mph village if you tried it has about 9 houses and about 4 on the round he was doing. All you will get is MOD people on there way to the base.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
Mentioned on another thread that within earshot of our house is a stretch of road , two shortish straights joined by an off camber 90, in one direction straight onto a river bridge.

It's a 30 and whilst the straights are probably not 30 material the whole length of road is not that long, maybe a third of a mile, and the areas off it and at each end are definitely 30 areas. So understandable why this is 30. You have to be trying to get significantly OPL, it's not a stretch for oops drifted over a bit.

To be fair to the police I have certainly seen a biker on the bend stopping and giving words of advice, maybe more.

Yet one can listen at night and wait for the bang. Bridge has just been clobbered again from someone spinning backwards into it.

No camera van / bike so far.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Monday 7th September 2015
quotequote all
FiF said:
Mentioned on another thread that within earshot of our house is a stretch of road , two shortish straights joined by an off camber 90, in one direction straight onto a river bridge.

It's a 30 and whilst the straights are probably not 30 material the whole length of road is not that long, maybe a third of a mile, and the areas off it and at each end are definitely 30 areas. So understandable why this is 30. You have to be trying to get significantly OPL, it's not a stretch for oops drifted over a bit.

To be fair to the police I have certainly seen a biker on the bend stopping and giving words of advice, maybe more.

Yet one can listen at night and wait for the bang. Bridge has just been clobbered again from someone spinning backwards into it.

No camera van / bike so far.
Very similar to our location actually. We live in a small village right on a 90 degree bend in a 30 limit, with a straight each side of the bend. Since we moved in last year there have been two accidents, one involved a car ending up in our neighbour's living room! Apparently it's notorious and sees plenty of crunches. I've never seen a speed camera anywhere near it, or in fact anywhere in the village.

BURNIE

1,152 posts

239 months

Wednesday 9th September 2015
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I was a ADI for a good few years..
My thoughts are driving has become very very poor..
I now live back in Cornwall we have a road 12 miles from our village to the next town not sometimes every time I drive it nobody does much more than 44mph, braking on corners, cutting the corners so badly that traffic coming the opposite way have to brake to avoid them.this Road is national speed limit.
Drove through France this year and I never had one incident through out 2000 miles.What ever they are teaching is far better than we are today.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
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BURNIE said:
Drove through France this year and I never had one incident through out 2000 miles.What ever they are teaching is far better than we are today.
I posted something similar recently too. In June/July I drove 2,000 miles through France, Germany, Austria and Belgium. Yes, each country has its quirks, but in that whole time we were never held up due to an accident, or indeed saw any driving that we thought was unsafe. In the UK, unsafe driving is completely normal, as are huge hold ups due to accidents. In just the last two weeks and 1,000 miles of UK driving I've seen the aftermath of one fatal and one very bad accident, the latter of which left me sat on a closed dual carriageway for over two hours. I've also passed the scene of a few minor accidents. Going back to that 2,000 miles holiday, on our journey from Folkestone back to home we were caught in two big queues caused by accidents, the first we'd seen since leaving the UK two weeks previously. The UK does indeed appear to be a bit of a hot spot for crap driving and yes, from my point of view at least it does appear to be getting worse.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Thursday 10th September 2015
quotequote all
Agreed, except my main areas of ops have been Netherlands, Germany, up through Denmark into Sweden, plus forays into France, Belgium, Germany, Spain, Austria and Switzerland. Given that some of those countries the traffic density is fairly sparse one can expect a difference. Apart from one collision in Sweden, which needed an air ambulance, the only other times I've been seriously held up has been in Germany at the tunnel under the Elbe at Hamburg.

If I go back a lot of years the driving in France was quite amusing, admittedly, with various close shaves dismissed with a Gallic shrug, but recently, even allowing for the rose tinted specs of being on a road trip, holiday or work, as soon as one gets back this side of the water then there's a sea change in terms of poorer behaviour. Sometimes it results in nothing than poor form from somebody, other times you have to save idiots from themselves. It's not quite as bad coming in from Harwich as it is the Channel ports.

Yes I'm sure the driving is nowhere as bad as downtown Ankara, or Delhi, to pick two places at complete random, but in essence things here are worse which is the topic.

waremark

3,241 posts

212 months

Friday 11th September 2015
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FiF said:
Yes I'm sure the driving is nowhere as bad as downtown Ankara, or Delhi, to pick two places at complete random, but in essence things here are worse which is the topic.
After a few days taxying round Istanbul, driving here seems sublime.

simondv

2 posts

91 months

Thursday 25th August 2016
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I took my driving test 42 years ago at age 17, driving standards are much worse than then. This is caused by many things - A more selfish society, very busy roads, less police, in car distractions like loud music, phones etc, some people think they can drive like Lewis Hamilton on a public road because engines and brakes are better. There are some who have not taken a driving test at all, or not in the UK. The worst recent incident I saw was a younger Asian male driver texting on his phone on the busy M6 near Warrington, his car was wandering about, we just kept out of his way. Dangerous driving is commonplace when it used to be rare, and I think driving standards are now better in most of Western Europe compared to the UK, when the reverse was true 30 or 40 years ago.