Are driving standards in the UK getting worse?
Discussion
All good points.
Although I think that "driving standards" are probably little different overall -as people don't really change that much- I do think that improvements in vehicles do allow for less attention from drivers. Standard modern cars do stop and turn far better than they did in the past, though.
There are a lot of fairly nervous-looking elderly drivers and a lot of innattentive (with inflated sense of entitlement) younger drivers.
Anybody who rents a vehicle in another country will know that there are always differences, even within Europe. Renting a car in a city centre in Argentina was quite an experience, for various reasons, as was renting a road-going quad bike in The Philippines!
The UK is a fairly orderly place, even if there is a tendency towards "taking offence" and being affronted at other people's perceived lack of "fair play".
The politics of the UK obsession with queuing causes a few problems on the roads due to misplaced views at all extremes.
Although I think that "driving standards" are probably little different overall -as people don't really change that much- I do think that improvements in vehicles do allow for less attention from drivers. Standard modern cars do stop and turn far better than they did in the past, though.
There are a lot of fairly nervous-looking elderly drivers and a lot of innattentive (with inflated sense of entitlement) younger drivers.
Anybody who rents a vehicle in another country will know that there are always differences, even within Europe. Renting a car in a city centre in Argentina was quite an experience, for various reasons, as was renting a road-going quad bike in The Philippines!
The UK is a fairly orderly place, even if there is a tendency towards "taking offence" and being affronted at other people's perceived lack of "fair play".
The politics of the UK obsession with queuing causes a few problems on the roads due to misplaced views at all extremes.
R_U_LOCAL said:
I've some theories on why these figures have gone the way that they have. They are only theories based on my own experience, but I'd put money on someone more clever than me being able to prove them via statistics.
Pedestrian accidents have, I believe, reduced due to four main factors - traffic volume, changing social habits, redesigned town centres and paedophiles (bear with me on this one!).
Traffic volume is an obvious one if you think about it - as the volume of traffic increases, the average speed of moving traffic decreases - particularly at peak times when there are more pedestrians on the road - and slower moving traffic is, of course, safer for pedestrians.
People's social habits have changed dramatically in the last 10 years, thanks mostly to the introduction of the Licensing Act 2003. The new act removed traditional licensing hours (11pm for pubs and 2am for clubs) and allowed premises to apply for whatever hours they wanted. If no-one objects under the new act, premises could potentially get 24 hour licences. 24 hour pub licences are actually quite rare, but town centre pubs and clubs now commonly stay open until 4, 5 and 6am.
These later licensing hours have encouraged people to drink at home until much later and then go out much later - its very common for people to only start arriving in town centres at 11pm, 12pm and even 1am, ready to start their night out.
In road accident terms, this means that drunken pedestrians (along with children, drunks are the most vulnerable pedestrians) are wandering around the roads much later in the night/morning when there are far fewer vehicles on the road. Less vehicles + drunken pedestrians = less pedestrian accidents.
Alongside the changes to licensing hours, more and more town centres have become traffic-free. Pedestrianising town centres has also made the night-time economy areas much safer for drunken pedestrians. In addition, the proliferation of out-of-town shopping centres, and the massive rise of internet shopping has seen people's shopping habits change dramatically, with a further seperation between traffic and pedestrians.
On to paedophiles - or to be more accurate, the increase in people's fear of paedophiles. I don't believe there has been a huge increase in the number of nonces, but their activity has been publicised much more in recent years and this has resulted in a perception that there has been a huge increase in nonce activity.
When I was a child, we'd be allowed to play out in the street in the evenings without any fear of being grabbed off the street by Jimmy Saville, and we'd be allowed to walk to school on our own without any thought that Gary Glitter might be hiding behind a hedge.
These days, parent's fears for their children mean that they simply do not let their little darlings walk to school any more, even if it's only a few hundred yards away. Its the same reason parking outside schools has become such an issue in recent years. Rightly or wrongly, parents are far more protective these days and this has dramatically reduced the number of children (and especially primary age children) walking to and from school or playing in the street. When you do see young children walking to school, it's often in the form of a "walking bus" where they're all together, wearing high-viz and accompanied by one or more adults.
So, a number of different social factors seem to me to have had the unintended consequences of reducing pedestrian casualties.
As for cyclists, I think it's just the one factor which has reduced fatalities - the increase in helmet use. My boss is a keen cyclist - the type who spends a couple of grand on a carbon bike and lycra and dosen't think twice about doing 100 miles in a day. 20 years ago, he'd have worn one of those daft little cotton caps with the folded-up peak which cyclists used to use. These days he wears a streamlined racing helmet.
On Christmas day he was knocked from his bike by an inattentive driver who turned right across his path. He was thrown over the car and landed on his head, splitting his helmet in two. If he'd worn a cap he'd be dead - no doubt. In fact, he chipped a couple of vertebrae and was back in work on 2 January. So the increased acceptability of cycle helmets has made a huge difference and I struggle to understand why successive governments have failed to legislate for compulsory cycle helmet use.
The subject of nationality and driving standards is a whole other world of opinion and I could probably write another book on that subject alone.
Your explanations for big reduction in pedestrian fatalities make sense.Pedestrian accidents have, I believe, reduced due to four main factors - traffic volume, changing social habits, redesigned town centres and paedophiles (bear with me on this one!).
Traffic volume is an obvious one if you think about it - as the volume of traffic increases, the average speed of moving traffic decreases - particularly at peak times when there are more pedestrians on the road - and slower moving traffic is, of course, safer for pedestrians.
People's social habits have changed dramatically in the last 10 years, thanks mostly to the introduction of the Licensing Act 2003. The new act removed traditional licensing hours (11pm for pubs and 2am for clubs) and allowed premises to apply for whatever hours they wanted. If no-one objects under the new act, premises could potentially get 24 hour licences. 24 hour pub licences are actually quite rare, but town centre pubs and clubs now commonly stay open until 4, 5 and 6am.
These later licensing hours have encouraged people to drink at home until much later and then go out much later - its very common for people to only start arriving in town centres at 11pm, 12pm and even 1am, ready to start their night out.
In road accident terms, this means that drunken pedestrians (along with children, drunks are the most vulnerable pedestrians) are wandering around the roads much later in the night/morning when there are far fewer vehicles on the road. Less vehicles + drunken pedestrians = less pedestrian accidents.
Alongside the changes to licensing hours, more and more town centres have become traffic-free. Pedestrianising town centres has also made the night-time economy areas much safer for drunken pedestrians. In addition, the proliferation of out-of-town shopping centres, and the massive rise of internet shopping has seen people's shopping habits change dramatically, with a further seperation between traffic and pedestrians.
On to paedophiles - or to be more accurate, the increase in people's fear of paedophiles. I don't believe there has been a huge increase in the number of nonces, but their activity has been publicised much more in recent years and this has resulted in a perception that there has been a huge increase in nonce activity.
When I was a child, we'd be allowed to play out in the street in the evenings without any fear of being grabbed off the street by Jimmy Saville, and we'd be allowed to walk to school on our own without any thought that Gary Glitter might be hiding behind a hedge.
These days, parent's fears for their children mean that they simply do not let their little darlings walk to school any more, even if it's only a few hundred yards away. Its the same reason parking outside schools has become such an issue in recent years. Rightly or wrongly, parents are far more protective these days and this has dramatically reduced the number of children (and especially primary age children) walking to and from school or playing in the street. When you do see young children walking to school, it's often in the form of a "walking bus" where they're all together, wearing high-viz and accompanied by one or more adults.
So, a number of different social factors seem to me to have had the unintended consequences of reducing pedestrian casualties.
As for cyclists, I think it's just the one factor which has reduced fatalities - the increase in helmet use. My boss is a keen cyclist - the type who spends a couple of grand on a carbon bike and lycra and dosen't think twice about doing 100 miles in a day. 20 years ago, he'd have worn one of those daft little cotton caps with the folded-up peak which cyclists used to use. These days he wears a streamlined racing helmet.
On Christmas day he was knocked from his bike by an inattentive driver who turned right across his path. He was thrown over the car and landed on his head, splitting his helmet in two. If he'd worn a cap he'd be dead - no doubt. In fact, he chipped a couple of vertebrae and was back in work on 2 January. So the increased acceptability of cycle helmets has made a huge difference and I struggle to understand why successive governments have failed to legislate for compulsory cycle helmet use.
The subject of nationality and driving standards is a whole other world of opinion and I could probably write another book on that subject alone.
For cyclists, I am not so sure. I say that as someone who has cycled a lot of miles, sometimes in a helmet and sometimes in one of those daft little cotton caps.
If I may say so, the question of whether cycling helmets contribute to cyclists' safety is far from being settled.
Although it is, I think, agreed that for certain specific accidents a helmet does benefit and could indeed save the life of the wearer, for other specific accidents, a helmet will increase the risk of serious or even fatal neck/upper spine injuries.
It seems that a greater problem with helmets is risk compensation. A study about 8 years ago found that drivers will tend to drive closer to helmeted cyclists than they will to un-helmeted cyclists.
Beyond what drivers may do, it is known that cyclists wearing helmets tend to ride less cautiously than they do when they are not wearing helmets.
The net result of these two phenomena is that, even if it is true that helmets on balance tend to reduce the severity of injury in the case of an accident, not wearing a helmet will tend to reduce the likelihood of an accident.
Which of those two tendencies has the greater effect I could not say.
SK425 said:
flemke said:
An open question, ISTM, is whether driving courtesy is part of driving standards.
Is that an open question? I can't imagine supporting a definition of "good driving" that didn't include courtesy.In Germany, you won't find many "nice" drivers. In America you will find a lot of nice drivers.
I feel safer driving in Germany than I do in the US because, although in Germany other drivers are not conceding position to me, I can be reasonably confident that they see me, they are aware of what my car might do, and they have control over their own vehicles.
The cultural mores in Germany are quite different from what they are in the US or in UK. I don't know that it is our place to judge what amount of courtesy is "right" - safety is vastly more important.
Should be no need for courtesy when driving if everyone would stick to the rules of the road. Giving way when they should. Keeping the correct following distance from other cars. Not using there horn or flashing there lights. Driving is such a simple thing but people make it complicated. the aggressive drivers are the worst Rather than pushing the car in front to go faster why not Overtake on a straight piece of road. I think sometimes It is because the driver of that car likes being in a aggressive mood, They can see the driver in front checking there mirror regularly and at that point they know they have power over them, So they will continue to bully that driver. It gives them a feeling of control. The best thing to do in that situation is to wait until there is a layby and pull into it and just drive normally keeping a eye on them until you can pull into it. The more tempting option if you have a powerful car is to leave them. But then they have won because they have forced you into a situation they want. A race. A race on the public roads is a bad idea.
flemke said:
SK425 said:
flemke said:
An open question, ISTM, is whether driving courtesy is part of driving standards.
Is that an open question? I can't imagine supporting a definition of "good driving" that didn't include courtesy.In Germany, you won't find many "nice" drivers. In America you will find a lot of nice drivers.
I feel safer driving in Germany than I do in the US because, although in Germany other drivers are not conceding position to me, I can be reasonably confident that they see me, they are aware of what my car might do, and they have control over their own vehicles.
The cultural mores in Germany are quite different from what they are in the US or in UK. I don't know that it is our place to judge what amount of courtesy is "right" - safety is vastly more important.
Another factor in the reduction of road casualties is probably the ageing population. Drivers in the first 2 years, particularly the first 6 months, after passing their test have a disproportionate number of accidents. And the number of new drivers has been declining since the early 90s IRRC.
R_U_LOCAL said:
... How can driving standards have improved, but there has also been an increase in bad drivers?
It's purely down to numbers...
It is, but while I agree that the proportion of inept and over-aggressive drivers hasn't increased, our more crowded roads mean those there are are more conspicuous. Take RUL's Scotland-M60 comparison: even the worst drivers usually manage to negotiate a quiet road without upsetting anyone else or getting in the way. While we cruise serenely through the Highlands they're still out there, but the situations in which they might inconvenience us just don't arise. If we come up behind a nervous brake-dabber, it's a simple matter to overtake on the next straight. It's purely down to numbers...
On the M60, on the other hand - or the London end of the M4, which is my regular patch - we're all short of road space, so there are far more opportunities to hog lanes, pull into closing gaps, mismanage sliproad merges and all the other things that might press the buttons of someone trying to do it properly.
In other words, it's not that bad drivers are more prevalent, but we see more bad driving because the road conditions are more likely to provoke it.
greygoose said:
flemke said:
SK425 said:
flemke said:
An open question, ISTM, is whether driving courtesy is part of driving standards.
Is that an open question? I can't imagine supporting a definition of "good driving" that didn't include courtesy.In Germany, you won't find many "nice" drivers. In America you will find a lot of nice drivers.
I feel safer driving in Germany than I do in the US because, although in Germany other drivers are not conceding position to me, I can be reasonably confident that they see me, they are aware of what my car might do, and they have control over their own vehicles.
The cultural mores in Germany are quite different from what they are in the US or in UK. I don't know that it is our place to judge what amount of courtesy is "right" - safety is vastly more important.
On the other hand, I am shocked to observe the degree to which London car drivers, and especially taxi drivers (including those total assh0les driving "Addison Lee" people carriers) will use their impregnable cars to bully pedestrians out of their way. In contrast to the selfish but harmless stupidity of tooting one's horn, bullying pedestrians is selfish, dangerous and downright disgraceful.
chaz1234 said:
Should be no need for courtesy when driving if everyone would stick to the rules of the road.
I can't see how that is true. I drive on busy motorways and dual carriageways and it's a daily occurrence to not be able to change lanes without somebody else's help. I ask for other people's help sometimes, I help other people out sometimes. There is nothing wrong with asking for help and if it's given one really ought to say thank you. Ditto for emerging from junctions or onto roundabout into heavy, solid traffic. People sometimes choose to help me out in situations like that and I think it would be remiss of me not to say thank you. Sometimes people take steps to help me overtake - seems reasonable to thank them. Even when someone is only doing what they jolly well ought to do - waiting behind the parked car on their side of the road as I'm oncoming for example, there is nothing to be lost and something to be gained by thanking them (it's what I would do if I could talk directly to them from inside my car). If we were able to simply talk to the other drivers around us, there are all sort of things we'd naturally be saying to each other without even thinking about it - "hello", "excuse me", "I'm going this way", "thank you", "sorry" etc. We aren't able to talk to each other from inside our personal metal boxes, but once you realise that all the different signals we are able to give - including courtesy signals - are just the imperfect substitute for the talking we would otherwise be doing, it becomes obvious how to use the signals and why they are a good idea.My observation is that society has changed and we live in the aforementioned instant gratification that is borne out of a culture of entitlement. Peoples true colours come out when they believe they cannot suffer any consequences, and when in a steel box on four wheels and everyone else is in the same position then they feel impervious to the consequences of their aggression, rudeness, inconsiderate actions and selfishness and that consequence would be confrontation in front of their peers and a dent in their pride.
If I’m in the supermarket queue, no one ever jams their trolley in front of mine to get to the checkout ten seconds earlier. Why? Because I would confront them (not powerfully built director) and they would likely be confronted by all those around them and they would stand in the uncomfortable situation, within the personal space of their peers until they have progressed through the checkout or retreated to another checkout.
If I’m running on the footpath and overtake someone, do I get the coffee beans, the finger or any other colourful sign language? No.
If I carelessly step out of a shop doorway without looking, do I get the finger and someone following me down the high street 2” from my back side? No.
If I’m in the supermarket queue, no one ever jams their trolley in front of mine to get to the checkout ten seconds earlier. Why? Because I would confront them (not powerfully built director) and they would likely be confronted by all those around them and they would stand in the uncomfortable situation, within the personal space of their peers until they have progressed through the checkout or retreated to another checkout.
If I’m running on the footpath and overtake someone, do I get the coffee beans, the finger or any other colourful sign language? No.
If I carelessly step out of a shop doorway without looking, do I get the finger and someone following me down the high street 2” from my back side? No.
Edited by stevesingo on Wednesday 22 April 13:53
I think that the "improvements" in modern cars should also have an element blame attached.
I noticed my driving standard drop off noticeably when I moved from a Westfield to a Fiat Coupe. The Fiat was so much less involving to drive that I took less notice, hence the drop off in my driving standards.
Modern cars get easier to drive and require much less attention from the driver so the act of "driving" plays second fiddle to whatever the driver is paying attention to at the moment, texting, applying makeup, listening to music, talking on the phone etc.
There was a study done in Canada (I believe) that showed people drive at an accepted level of risk. An experiment was done where they cleared the trees around an unmanned railway crossing to give drivers a better view of approaching trains. The upshot was the drivers just drove faster and the risk was brought back to the same level as before. If this is the case, everything done by manufacturers to make drivers safer is potentially wasted.
I noticed my driving standard drop off noticeably when I moved from a Westfield to a Fiat Coupe. The Fiat was so much less involving to drive that I took less notice, hence the drop off in my driving standards.
Modern cars get easier to drive and require much less attention from the driver so the act of "driving" plays second fiddle to whatever the driver is paying attention to at the moment, texting, applying makeup, listening to music, talking on the phone etc.
There was a study done in Canada (I believe) that showed people drive at an accepted level of risk. An experiment was done where they cleared the trees around an unmanned railway crossing to give drivers a better view of approaching trains. The upshot was the drivers just drove faster and the risk was brought back to the same level as before. If this is the case, everything done by manufacturers to make drivers safer is potentially wasted.
I have been driving for 42 years and I can say that "YES" driving standards have been worsening progressively during the whole of that time.
The changes?
Far more cars using the road. This number has, I believe, grown at a faster rate than the population and has far outgrown improvements to the road system.
When I started driving people would regard the driving licence as something special they had to work for and took pride in keeping a good standard of driving. These days most people seem to think that it is their god-given right be given a licence and when they have been given one they are instantly a driving god!
The standard of actual driving is very poor these days with very little regard given to other road users, safety gaps to the car in front, lane discipline, signalling, obstructing other driver's progress and assisting other drivers.
The single biggest change I have noticed is that now days there is almost zero courtesy between road users!
The changes?
Far more cars using the road. This number has, I believe, grown at a faster rate than the population and has far outgrown improvements to the road system.
When I started driving people would regard the driving licence as something special they had to work for and took pride in keeping a good standard of driving. These days most people seem to think that it is their god-given right be given a licence and when they have been given one they are instantly a driving god!
The standard of actual driving is very poor these days with very little regard given to other road users, safety gaps to the car in front, lane discipline, signalling, obstructing other driver's progress and assisting other drivers.
The single biggest change I have noticed is that now days there is almost zero courtesy between road users!
Reading the initial post I reasoned that the question was far too vague to have any meaning.
I started reading the thread intently but then started to skim a bit.
If asking if driving standards are now worse I would need to know what time period we are talking of. Worse than last year, worse than 1966 or worse than 1906?
There are too many external variables to factor in.
If serving standards were the same today as in 1915 there would be many times more accidents as there are over a hundred times more cars on the road.
A modern car with all round independent suspension and modern tyres will corner faster and with more stability driven by an idiotic novice than a Morris minor driven by an expert driver. The same type of rule applies for Cars with discs all round and ABS compared to an old rover with non servo'd drum brakes.
Drivers seem to know the Highway Code lees nowadays than even twenty years ago,but then the Highway Code has been dumbed down.
It could also be argued that motorists of yesteryear were better drivers due to understanding how their cars worked.
I have a suspicion though that a driver who could understand a dizzy cap and could polish the rotor arm would be just as clueless if asked to 'repair' a coil pack as a modern day driver.
We can discuss accident stats, but if a modern car will stop more quickly than an old non servo'd car there would be fewer collisions given the same attention level.
Driver aids also need to be factored in here. I can reverse my car to near enough 30cm away from an object with my eyes closed. I'm sure I could repeatedly do it within a few mm. I couldn't have been that accurate in an old Morris Marina even looking in the mirrors !
Even lights are making a huge difference. A poor driver is safer (IMHO) on unlit country roads in a modern car with halogen or xenon (which gives better colour perception) than a skilled driver was using normal incandescent bulbs in an old car at the same speed.
So, if asked if standards have changed, which standards are we talking about and over what time period?
Many posters will automatically say that yes standards have lowered. That of course means that someone like me who learned to drive with: no power steering, no servo on the brakes, no ABS, drums all round, old style bulbs, less cars on the road, not always fitted seat belts, no air bags, leaf spring suspension, no parking aids etc etc am now a worse driver despite having a much easier to drive car, and having thirty years experience.
Just a few thoughts to throw into the mix
One final thing to throw in: the fact that the average Britain is richer now than many decades ago also means that it's the norm to own a car, and so car ownership is felt to be a 'right' by some drivers. It's my personal opinion that drivers who feel they have a right to have a license and a car drive differently to those that see a license as a privilege or something to aspire to.
Oh no one more thing......sorry.
Germany was mentioned in this thread. I would love the UK to adopt the right of way system the Germans use as I feel it's far far safer than what the UK uses and removing guesswork from many junctions would make the roads safer IMHO.
I started reading the thread intently but then started to skim a bit.
If asking if driving standards are now worse I would need to know what time period we are talking of. Worse than last year, worse than 1966 or worse than 1906?
There are too many external variables to factor in.
If serving standards were the same today as in 1915 there would be many times more accidents as there are over a hundred times more cars on the road.
A modern car with all round independent suspension and modern tyres will corner faster and with more stability driven by an idiotic novice than a Morris minor driven by an expert driver. The same type of rule applies for Cars with discs all round and ABS compared to an old rover with non servo'd drum brakes.
Drivers seem to know the Highway Code lees nowadays than even twenty years ago,but then the Highway Code has been dumbed down.
It could also be argued that motorists of yesteryear were better drivers due to understanding how their cars worked.
I have a suspicion though that a driver who could understand a dizzy cap and could polish the rotor arm would be just as clueless if asked to 'repair' a coil pack as a modern day driver.
We can discuss accident stats, but if a modern car will stop more quickly than an old non servo'd car there would be fewer collisions given the same attention level.
Driver aids also need to be factored in here. I can reverse my car to near enough 30cm away from an object with my eyes closed. I'm sure I could repeatedly do it within a few mm. I couldn't have been that accurate in an old Morris Marina even looking in the mirrors !
Even lights are making a huge difference. A poor driver is safer (IMHO) on unlit country roads in a modern car with halogen or xenon (which gives better colour perception) than a skilled driver was using normal incandescent bulbs in an old car at the same speed.
So, if asked if standards have changed, which standards are we talking about and over what time period?
Many posters will automatically say that yes standards have lowered. That of course means that someone like me who learned to drive with: no power steering, no servo on the brakes, no ABS, drums all round, old style bulbs, less cars on the road, not always fitted seat belts, no air bags, leaf spring suspension, no parking aids etc etc am now a worse driver despite having a much easier to drive car, and having thirty years experience.
Just a few thoughts to throw into the mix
One final thing to throw in: the fact that the average Britain is richer now than many decades ago also means that it's the norm to own a car, and so car ownership is felt to be a 'right' by some drivers. It's my personal opinion that drivers who feel they have a right to have a license and a car drive differently to those that see a license as a privilege or something to aspire to.
Oh no one more thing......sorry.
Germany was mentioned in this thread. I would love the UK to adopt the right of way system the Germans use as I feel it's far far safer than what the UK uses and removing guesswork from many junctions would make the roads safer IMHO.
Biggest cause of trouble and stress for uk motorists is roundabouts. Too many people use the wrong lane or don`t understand how to signal correctly. I don`t think this is a decline in driving standards but it is due to roundabouts becoming more complicated with a lack of lane markings or signs on the approach to the roundabout. Many roundabouts require local knowledge of the area to navigate correctly. I dislike roundabouts I fear them more than any other aspect of driving.
Roundabouts were originally designed to enable drivers to negotiate junctions without stopping. Giving priority to the right it was intended that cars entering the roundabout could filter in with cars already on the roundabout with negligible delay, and they worked well!
Fast forward to today where there are far more cars on the road, with far better performance driven by people who have forgotten about courtesy and are always in a hurry. Surprise surprise, the roundabouts no longer work as intended! In fact, they now often require traffic lights which defeat their whole raison d'être!
Fast forward to today where there are far more cars on the road, with far better performance driven by people who have forgotten about courtesy and are always in a hurry. Surprise surprise, the roundabouts no longer work as intended! In fact, they now often require traffic lights which defeat their whole raison d'être!
I negotiate two really simple roundabouts on my daily commute and nobody knows which lane to be in or how to signal. It's not because they're complicated; they couldn't be simpler, people just don't know how to drive properly... Loads of people use the right hand lane for straight on, or the left lane and no signal for turning right etc etc.
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