Discussion
I've been looking at the Advanced Driving forum for a while and learned a lot, but this is my first post. I've been working at pull-push, using 180 degree sweeps with hands not passing 12 o'clock. But I am now reading John Lyon's Advanced Driving book and, for sharper turns, he floats the idea of making a 225 degree sweep in order to have hands at a quarter to three during the turn. I've not come across the idea of making the initial pull from beyond 12 o'clock before. I'm keen to know your views on this and, in particular, how IAM and RoSPA would view a 225 degree sweep on test.
Puzz2 said:
I'm keen to know your views on this
Try it and see if you like it.Puzz2 said:
and, in particular, how IAM and RoSPA would view a 225 degree sweep on test.
I think examiners vary in their rigidity on points like this. Observers/tutors in your local group probably know your local examiner's foibles. I don't recall either my RoSPA or IAM examiner being particularly rigid about it.'Pull-push with an extended first sweep' as I believe it is known, can be very useful for 90-degree turns in my car. Conventional PP puts both hands together at the bottom of the wheel during the turn which doesn't give the best control. For a right turn, moving the right hand round to 9 O'clock to start means the hands are in a much better position mid-manoeuvre.
As long as you're not just about to have an airbag-activating incident, I can't see any reason not to do it.
As long as you're not just about to have an airbag-activating incident, I can't see any reason not to do it.
Push-Pull, Rotational and Fixed Input: all have their place and I think any examiner who isn't operating in a mental dark cave will expect you to show that you know when each is appropriate and be able to justify your use of any approach at any given time.
Edit: I just read Reg's original piece. What he said
Edit: I just read Reg's original piece. What he said
Edited by Technomad on Monday 11th May 22:54
waremark said:
I do it by default - to turn the wheel anything between 180 and 360 degrees it is smooth, neat and certainly allows you to keep full control. But it's not a surprise that I do it - I was taught by John Lyon when I was young, and these things stick.
I should have added that I have taken many Rospa and IAM tests and always scored highly for steering - but I am aware that some examiners are more 'traditional' than others.S. Gonzales Esq. said:
'Pull-push with an extended first sweep' as I believe it is known, can be very useful for 90-degree turns in my car. Conventional PP puts both hands together at the bottom of the wheel during the turn which doesn't give the best control. For a right turn, moving the right hand round to 9 O'clock to start means the hands are in a much better position mid-manoeuvre.
As long as you're not just about to have an airbag-activating incident, I can't see any reason not to do it.
Funnily enough, I learned this particular technique from a drive with you! As long as you're not just about to have an airbag-activating incident, I can't see any reason not to do it.
EDIT: I think it depends on the scenario and the car as well as the driver. I've got relatively short arms so it works for me, but only in slow speed sharp angle turns, such as in multi-storey car parks. I don't think I do it on an open road at speed.
Edited by blearyeyedboy on Sunday 5th July 11:46
I do it when required - might as well take one big bite instead of a couple of nibbles ...
The IAM would have a fit though ... oh you can't do that, hands mustn't go past 12 o'clock ...
b
ks to that ...
I really only do it when for example, turning right into a side road from low speed, or stationary - I can get the car through 90 degrees in one movement of the wheel, instead of two.
Is 'it 'allowed' in 'advanced driving circles' ??? No idea, but as this method was introduced to me on by an (ex) police instructor and it works fine for me, I'm not going to worry about it.
The IAM would have a fit though ... oh you can't do that, hands mustn't go past 12 o'clock ...
b
ks to that ...I really only do it when for example, turning right into a side road from low speed, or stationary - I can get the car through 90 degrees in one movement of the wheel, instead of two.
Is 'it 'allowed' in 'advanced driving circles' ??? No idea, but as this method was introduced to me on by an (ex) police instructor and it works fine for me, I'm not going to worry about it.
Edited by mph999 on Sunday 5th July 20:35
There are times when say, reaching the left hand over to around 2-3 o'clock, or 10-11 o'clock makes for good steering ...... but the what ifs depend and vary all the time. So say you have your right hand at 3 and you reach over to 2 with your left .... and then what if you suddenly need to make a sharp right input? You have both hands committed on the right of the wheel and you're planning to turn left but have to swerve right for some reason. You'd end up unceremoniously grabbing the wheel to first hard right, then to correct it with some left, then a bit of both to correct a possible wobble or skid....... So yes there are times during steering when it won't be as safe as having hands PPing on opposite sides of the wheel. Depends.
Bigends said:
I still push and pull as taught. Never have both hands on the same side of the wheel at the same time
It depends. I don't like to have both hands at the bottom of the wheel mid-turn, as in push pull and that is why reaching over past 12, causes both hands to be opposite eachother at around 3:15 mid- turn. This is a safer input and allows for finer and further mid-turn input whereas push pull doesn't. There are several safe steering inputs and to dismiss them is to deny their validity. ZedLeppelin said:
Bigends said:
I still push and pull as taught. Never have both hands on the same side of the wheel at the same time
It depends. I don't like to have both hands at the bottom of the wheel mid-turn, as in push pull and that is why reaching over past 12, causes both hands to be opposite eachother at around 3:15 mid- turn. This is a safer input and allows for finer and further mid-turn input whereas push pull doesn't. There are several safe steering inputs and to dismiss them is to deny their validity. 
RobM77 said:
I think it depends what works for you and the speed of your car's rack. I cross my arms when I'm steering and therefore can get away with using pull-push via the standard method of not going beyond 12 o' clock.
Agreed that as long as the effect or output of the steering input is safe and smooth, unless there's some issue being caused by the steering style being used, best left alone. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that everyone should use just one steering input otherwise they cannot be driving safely, as it's highly patronising and incorrect.
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