Differences between mainland Europe & UK - roads and drivers

[Robert Elise]

Portugal is not a role model.... yes they overtake a lot, but their risk assessment of on-coming traffic and how they are going to cut back in again is frightening.
And when it rains in the Algarve it's not unusual to see several crashed cars in just a few miles of driving. combination of bravado, sand on the roads and lack of ESC. They're not even unfamiliar with rain (getting twice as much as London btw).
Statistically they're not good, though i believe the Dominican Republic is even worse.

[Red 5]

Almost everywhere has a worse safety record than the UK.

Almost everywhere else has a more relaxed attitude to overtaking.

Almost everywhere we've been discussing, is more sparsely populated than most of the U.K. so should be safer!

I'll state it again.....because I really believe it.....Drivers and driving in the UK is boring and orderly compared to almost everywhere in Europe.
I know there's always one numpty, but on the whole, we sit in lines and take our turn. Dull but safer in the main.

MOIC

[minimatan]

I have driven throughout Europe for a number of years with both car and motorcycle. I have always been pleased with the greater awareness and lane discipline demonstrated by French autoroute drivers. Some of my favourite examples are when vehicles in lane two accelerate a bit faster in order to complete their overtake and enter lane one so that the vehicles in lane three that is being approached by a faster vehicle can enter lane two swiftly.

German drivers on the autobahn are a horrible bunch. The overtaking parties can be aggressive tailgating types with ludicrous closIng speeds and conversely the cars in slower lanes will simply pull out in order to complete a lower speed overtake in spite of the extremely high closing speeds of the vehicle already in that lane.

Italians drivers are very impatient and discourteous in the main and Belgian drivers have demonstrated consistently that they are by far the worst drivers one would expect to encounter.

I have encountered serious motorway accidents in mainly France and Germany and I appreciate the fact that they set up screen so as to prevent rubbernecking, which is a problem in the UK as it slows traffic down unnecessarily.

Perhaps familiarity breeds contempt, but middle lane hogging is such a large problem throughout the UK that I am surprised that the government doesn't run prime time adverts to communicate how a lack of discipline slows everyone down. The large majority of them just seem oblivious to any fluctuations of traffic movement! On a motorcycle, the ludicrousness of the wasted space unused for appropriate lane discipline becomes very apparent.

I am not sure whether familiarity

[monamimate]

RobM77 said:

Red 5 said:

RobM77 said:

Red 5 said:

When it gets really busy, you soon realise that drivers in the UK are on the whole, more predictable, orderly and safe.

I've never found that, not even in Belgium! UK drivers are mostly completely incompetent and often extremely aggressive as well.

In the UK, in a busy / jam on the motorway, there's always one
That person being aggressive and creating their own little traffic battle!
Mostly you can see what they're doing.

In Belgium though, there's a strange drone like tailgating and bunching of vehicles. One or more of the drivers can wake up at any moment and perform an unsignalled lane change akin to the elk test in severity!
There just seems to be greater uniformity in the galactic incompetence, so you can be dive bombed from seemingly impossible positions at any time.

I must admit that I've not found that about Belgium, but we can probably agree that Germany for example is leagues ahead of the UK in those terms.

With regard to what you say about the UK, yes, I totally agree. I commute on the A34 and you can guarantee that every time there's a queue of people overtaking a lorry that someone's going to dive up the inside at a 30mph closing speed and try and cut in. I really mean that you can guarantee it; it happens virtually every time! Approximately once a month there's a serious accident that causes miles of tailbacks. Last month the road was closed with me sat on it stationary from 8am till nearly 11am. Perhaps I've been lucky, but after working (Germany) and holidaying (Germany, France, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland) in mainland Europe over the years I think I've only been stuck in one or two hold ups like that. On our recent 2,000 mile road trip through all the aforementioned countries we had no hold ups at all, but on returning to the UK we got stuck in two major queues due to accidents. Our neighbours coincidentally took a similar holiday and had a similar experience - no accidents causing hold ups until they got back here in the UK.

Sorry, but you're basing your whole point of view of purely subjective anecdotal "evidence" - just because you've had the luck not to have been caught in a hold-up doesn't mean they don't happen!

Coming back from Paris last week: one hour to do 12km due to accident on m'way. This week in Antwerp: one and a half hours to do 8 km, due to an accident... (that's equivalent to 66.6% of my motorway journeys in the one week). Last time in Germany, averaged 30km/h on the m'way for 2 hours due to congestion following 2 separate accidents...

You are suffering a severe case of rose-tinted spectacles/ grass always greener...

Edited by monamimate on Sunday 11th October 17:44

Edited by monamimate on Sunday 11th October 17:47

[minimatan]

Well , I have just driven from Calais to Cologne. The whole drive was pretty normal, Belgians were inoffensive and there was a diversion before Aachen because there was a jackknifed lorry and a huge hold up on the A4 involving four vehicles. The Germans are can be stupid to the point of irresponsibility on the Autobahns. The disparity in speeds is scary sometimes.

[Kawasicki]

I commute on the A9 autobahn. Usually drive at an indicated 190-200 km/h. Still have people regularly overtaking me with a solid speed differential, more dangerous than the UK, but massively less boring.

[RobM77]

monamimate said:

RobM77 said:

Red 5 said:

RobM77 said:

Red 5 said:

When it gets really busy, you soon realise that drivers in the UK are on the whole, more predictable, orderly and safe.

I've never found that, not even in Belgium! UK drivers are mostly completely incompetent and often extremely aggressive as well.

In the UK, in a busy / jam on the motorway, there's always one
That person being aggressive and creating their own little traffic battle!
Mostly you can see what they're doing.

In Belgium though, there's a strange drone like tailgating and bunching of vehicles. One or more of the drivers can wake up at any moment and perform an unsignalled lane change akin to the elk test in severity!
There just seems to be greater uniformity in the galactic incompetence, so you can be dive bombed from seemingly impossible positions at any time.

I must admit that I've not found that about Belgium, but we can probably agree that Germany for example is leagues ahead of the UK in those terms.

With regard to what you say about the UK, yes, I totally agree. I commute on the A34 and you can guarantee that every time there's a queue of people overtaking a lorry that someone's going to dive up the inside at a 30mph closing speed and try and cut in. I really mean that you can guarantee it; it happens virtually every time! Approximately once a month there's a serious accident that causes miles of tailbacks. Last month the road was closed with me sat on it stationary from 8am till nearly 11am. Perhaps I've been lucky, but after working (Germany) and holidaying (Germany, France, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland) in mainland Europe over the years I think I've only been stuck in one or two hold ups like that. On our recent 2,000 mile road trip through all the aforementioned countries we had no hold ups at all, but on returning to the UK we got stuck in two major queues due to accidents. Our neighbours coincidentally took a similar holiday and had a similar experience - no accidents causing hold ups until they got back here in the UK.

Sorry, but you're basing your whole point of view of purely subjective anecdotal "evidence" - just because you've had the luck not to have been caught in a hold-up doesn't mean they don't happen!

Coming back from Paris last week: one hour to do 12km due to accident on m'way. This week in Antwerp: one and a half hours to do 8 km, due to an accident... (that's equivalent to 66.6% of my motorway journeys in the one week). Last time in Germany, averaged 30km/h on the m'way for 2 hours due to congestion following 2 separate accidents...

You are suffering a severe case of rose-tinted spectacles/ grass always greener...

With respect that's your interpretation of what I've written that results in your conclusion. I actually didn't say that. Try reading exactly what I've written, rather than inferring all sorts of other things between the lines

I'm not trying to make definitive statements, and my anecdotal stories do not replace evidence (that applies just as much to your experiences as it does mine!). This is a discussion forum, and I've simply contributed to the discussion by saying that in my experience of driving in the UK and Europe the traffic flows much better in Europe due to, in my anecdotal and subjective experiences, drivers on mainland European roads on average being vastly better at driving than the average driver on UK roads. That's my opening remark, and it's now your opportunity to reply to that with your own remarks - we're here to discuss things aren't we?

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 12th October 13:40

[Foppo]

I'm not sure who is better or worse.I have driven on the continent off and on for the last thirty years.It often depends on the lay out of the town also.I like driving in Rotterdam there is often a escape road next to flowing traffic to stop.

Agression has increased over the years I have noticed.Less patience.

Our roads are getting fuller and not enough room to move.London is a prime example where I have driven regulary.

[monamimate]

RobM77 said:

With respect that's your interpretation of what I've written that results in your conclusion. I actually didn't say that. Try reading exactly what I've written, rather than inferring all sorts of other things between the lines

I'm not trying to make definitive statements, and my anecdotal stories do not replace evidence (that applies just as much to your experiences as it does mine!). This is a discussion forum, and I've simply contributed to the discussion by saying that in my experience of driving in the UK and Europe the traffic flows much better in Europe due to, in my anecdotal and subjective experiences, drivers on mainland European roads on average being vastly better at driving than the average driver on UK roads. That's my opening remark, and it's now your opportunity to reply to that with your own remarks - we're here to discuss things aren't we?

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 12th October 13:40

Without wishing to unleash a great polemic here, I am actually reading what you wrote, as I am responding to your last comment. Furthermore, my point in referring to those Continental hold-ups was precisely to point out that one can find anecdotal evidence anywhere.

And yes, it is indeed a discussion forum, so it's fun to disagree a little!

My point of view here is that I have lived and worked on the Continent since 1985, in Belgium, Austria and France, following 8 years of driving in the UK. I therefore think it's reasonably fair for me to claim a certain actual day to day experience of road conditions and driving styles, at different times of the day, week and indeed year.

Drivers here fall into all sorts of categories from great to awful, just like in the UK.

Most of my Continental friends remark that driving in the UK (except for motorways) is a far more pleasant, polite, safer affair than at home. I agree.

Accident statistics bear this out, with the UK at the top (or near to) of the rankings (in the good sense!)

Roads conditions are also highly varied, from superb motorways to narrow broken lanes in France or from majestic A-roads to frankly shoddy concrete autobahns in Germany, Belgium is fairly uniformly bad. The UK has a mix of incredibly good surfaces (including the use of higher grip tarmac in bends, which I have found nowhere else) to very sorry main roads and highways. It's very difficult to generalise that one country is better than another.

It's great that you feel so positive about Continental driving. Only, as I said, I think this is down to a pink filter rather than reflecting reality.

[RobM77]

How I feel about driving in mainland Europe is open to bias and looking through rose tinted glasses. I don't think it is me looking through rose tinted glasses, because my friends and work colleagues all feel the same way and even our next door neighbours said the same when they returned from a big trip to the alps and back. Nevertheless, it is a subjective opinion, so indeed it could be the rose tinted glasses at work, yes.

However, the number of times I've been on hold ups due to accidents (or possibly even see people do really stupid things) is an absolute fact, surely? If you want to disagree with it, the way to do that is to say that I've just been very lucky, which perhaps I have been? I've no way of knowing that. My point above is that I'm not trying to say that my recent 2,000 mile road trip is indicative of the whole of Europe (it's too small a sample size, obviously), I'm simply asking if anyone else has found this too because I'm interested.

[Hugo a Gogo]

I live in Germany, have done millions of miles here, regularly drive back through Belgium and/or Netherlands

Belgium is awful, terrible surfaces, terrible drivers

Netherlands, great road quality, terrible drivers, very slow

Germany is OK, mixed really, some good some bad
what you have to remember is that the autobahns are ubiquitous, practically every main road is an autobahn, there aren't the equivalent of A road dual carriageways
I used to live in the North East, and go back there regularly - if roads like the A66 or A19 or the A1 (all improved lately) were added to UK's motorway accident record, it wouldn't look so good
Proper M roads in the UK are very high standard, wide and safe

I do think drivers' awareness is poor in the UK though, and there is lots more aggression

[monamimate]

RobM77 said:

How I feel about driving in mainland Europe is open to bias and looking through rose tinted glasses. I don't think it is me looking through rose tinted glasses, because my friends and work colleagues all feel the same way and even our next door neighbours said the same when they returned from a big trip to the alps and back. Nevertheless, it is a subjective opinion, so indeed it could be the rose tinted glasses at work, yes.

However, the number of times I've been on hold ups due to accidents (or possibly even see people do really stupid things) is an absolute fact, surely? If you want to disagree with it, the way to do that is to say that I've just been very lucky, which perhaps I have been? I've no way of knowing that. My point above is that I'm not trying to say that my recent 2,000 mile road trip is indicative of the whole of Europe (it's too small a sample size, obviously), I'm simply asking if anyone else has found this too because I'm interested.

On holiday, one will often not be involved in rush hour traffic, you are not in a hurry to get anywhere etc, so generally in a very relaxed and positive frame of mind. That already puts a little tint on the viewpoint.

In addition, as I said above, I am basing my views on daily experience of driving here, doing at least 25,000 km each year in a car and, in years gone by, on a m'bike too. So over the last 30 years, that comes to some 750,000 km, a little more than the 2000 or so that a British holiday-maker might have accumulated.

And, indeed, when I disagreed with you, I specifically said you must have been lucky.

Nevertheless, I wish your views did in fact reflect the reality here - it would make my daily driving a lot more enjoyable!

[RobM77]

monamimate said:

On holiday, one will often not be involved in rush hour traffic, you are not in a hurry to get anywhere etc, so generally in a very relaxed and positive frame of mind. That already puts a little tint on the viewpoint.

As I mentioned before, I often drive in rush hour traffic abroad, and that includes both work and holidays. On the aforementioned road trip we crossed Stuttgart in rush hour (as well as a large French city, whose name escapes me). As I said before, it was busy, yes, but there was an awful lot less aggression and argy-bargy. The French city had a road closure with no diversion (a common feature in Europe it seems!), so we must have spent two hours trying to get out of the place, but again, not really any aggression at all, just a lot of cars. That's my most recent experience, but in the past I've worked around Europe as well, which has involved regular rush hour driving.

At home I'm rarely in a hurry. I have a low stress job which is largely solo with very few meetings and flexible working hours (I can turn up any time between 8 and 10, then I work 7½ hours and go home between 4ish and 6ish).

[monamimate]

RobM77 said:

monamimate said:

On holiday, one will often not be involved in rush hour traffic, you are not in a hurry to get anywhere etc, so generally in a very relaxed and positive frame of mind. That already puts a little tint on the viewpoint.

As I mentioned before, I often drive in rush hour traffic abroad, and that includes both work and holidays. On the aforementioned road trip we crossed Stuttgart in rush hour (as well as a large French city, whose name escapes me). As I said before, it was busy, yes, but there was an awful lot less aggression and argy-bargy. The French city had a road closure with no diversion (a common feature in Europe it seems!), so we must have spent two hours trying to get out of the place, but again, not really any aggression at all, just a lot of cars. That's my most recent experience, but in the past I've worked around Europe as well, which has involved regular rush hour driving.

At home I'm rarely in a hurry. I have a low stress job which is largely solo with very few meetings and flexible working hours (I can turn up any time between 8 and 10, then I work 7½ hours and go home between 4ish and 6ish).

Now you're just making me jealous!! Sounds like a nice job.

I guess we will have to settle on having different experiences and perceptions - keep safe and enjoy the drive, wherever it might be!

[RobM77]

monamimate said:

RobM77 said:

monamimate said:

On holiday, one will often not be involved in rush hour traffic, you are not in a hurry to get anywhere etc, so generally in a very relaxed and positive frame of mind. That already puts a little tint on the viewpoint.

As I mentioned before, I often drive in rush hour traffic abroad, and that includes both work and holidays. On the aforementioned road trip we crossed Stuttgart in rush hour (as well as a large French city, whose name escapes me). As I said before, it was busy, yes, but there was an awful lot less aggression and argy-bargy. The French city had a road closure with no diversion (a common feature in Europe it seems!), so we must have spent two hours trying to get out of the place, but again, not really any aggression at all, just a lot of cars. That's my most recent experience, but in the past I've worked around Europe as well, which has involved regular rush hour driving.

At home I'm rarely in a hurry. I have a low stress job which is largely solo with very few meetings and flexible working hours (I can turn up any time between 8 and 10, then I work 7½ hours and go home between 4ish and 6ish).

Now you're just making me jealous!! Sounds like a nice job.

I guess we will have to settle on having different experiences and perceptions - keep safe and enjoy the drive, wherever it might be!

It's not massively well paid and it's very boring, but for me life's about finding a balance between work time and free time and I believe I've got that just right at the moment.

Oh yes, it's funny how experiences of similar things can vary.

[watchnut]

So we are agreed then?......

The Belgium's are the the worst drivers in Europe?....or are they?

I have been involved recently with training and testing Romanians who come over here to try and get a better life as Taxi drivers......let's say it has been "Interesting"......I need never to get an adrenaline rush again going to something as soft as Thorpe park or Alton towers.....

They all comment on how great our roads are, how considerate our driving is..........one bloke on Tuesday kept insisting on driving around every manhole cover/drain "In case it collapses ...like at home"

Some of them are truly terrifying

Before we moan and get wound up by some very poor driving we see over here every day, our roads are some of the safest in the world...fact. some of the comments over the last 3 pages back that up, I have driven all Europe, and yes the payage roads in France are a joy to drive on...until the 106 mad man or gitnes sucking rep comes up an inch behind you as you over take one of the few lorries on these roads, but the French roads off the D/C's are as bad as most if not worse than many of ours, Belgium is poor, Holland ditto, and some roads where I have family in the Stuttgart area equally as poor, the autobahnns around Stuttgart are nearly all as bad as any around my part of the M27/M3 for traffic jams....or anywhere else I here "Sally Traffic" talking about. (mind you you can at times get some decent speed up heading south east ish away from Stuttgart)

[RobM77]

I think there's probably two things of note when appraising a country's driving:

1) How good they are at driving on average.

2) How good they are at driving on average, relative to the density of cars on the road.

For example, all's well and good for number 1 on a tiny Greek island, but put those people on the rush hour M25 and it'd be a very different matter.

I think it's number 2 where Brits fall down. Belgium, as mentioned above, is a good example. It's a very different experience in the crowded north and centre compared to the Ardennes for example.

The other thing is how you appraise good and bad. Everyone finds that different things wind them up. For example, virtually no Brits indicate correctly - I reckon I see one or two cars a week following mirror signal manoeuvre, if that, and about a third who don't signal at all. People also can't seem to position their car at a junctions properly either. Those things winds me up as they cause congestion and aggravation. In Germany, virtually everyone signals properly and positions their cars correctly at junctions, changes lanes without affecting others etc. However, if speed annoys you then you'll have a very different impression of driving in the UK vs Germany and France. I hardly ever see cars being driven quickly on our roads.

[veccy208]

Spanish Drivers!! I recently drove in Tenerife, if anyone else has they will know exactly what I mean.
- Overtaking on hairpin bends
- Up your boot when driving at around 40mph on a road with a 3ft gully on one side and a 500ft drop on the other with no barriers.
- No regard for roundabout rules, indications, sides of road
- red orange and green means go
- meeting cars on blind corners on the wrong side of the road
- Unbelievably slick and almost vertical streets that when it rains you cant start off uphill.

I enjoyed the experience but the wife's nerves were permanently damage.

[anonymous-user]

I've just come back from 2 weeks driving in the UK, from Cornwall to Sutherland is Scottish Highlands, there is a huge difference in driving between the South and North of the UK, North of Shap it is much better/nicer, I put it down to the improvement in traffic density, a huge proportion of the UK population live in the S half of the island.

[mph1977]

tivver500 said:

In Germany when you exit the Autobahn you'll see a small sign with the letter 'U' followed by a number.
This the Umleitung (or Diversion) number. Follow the signs with the same number and they'll take you to the next Autobahn junction.
So - German efficiency and 'permanent' diversion signs - simples!!
(Why can't we do that here???)

we do ...