Modern gearing + BGOL
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
What is wrong with changing down and using the brakes?
It depends who you ask.My view is that almost every aspect of driving is far too complex to be boiled down simply to a list of things which are "right" and "wrong". Even Roadcraft reflects the fact that, on some occasions, it's preferable to ghange gear whilst braking.
Avoiding BGOL does have a number of benefits though and its important that you should understand these benefits and weigh them up against the benefits of your own approach before dismissing the 5 phase system.
TartanPaint said:
Looking forward to the gopro vids! Most of the videos I use for educational purposes are getting on a bit, and feel very dated. I think you'll make some half-decent revenue by being the go-to channel for up-to-date driving demos.
We'll see. You'll have to try to get past my fat bald head and cloggy accent without laughing first!R_U_LOCAL said:
Avoiding BGOL does have a number of benefits though and its important that you should understand these benefits and weigh them up against the benefits of your own approach before dismissing the 5 phase system.
To avoid me jumping off the deep end, could you summarize one or two? More than happy to learn new stuff.300bhp/ton said:
To avoid me jumping off the deep end, could you summarize one or two? More than happy to learn new stuff.
To avoid repeating myself, have a read of my post on the previous page, in which I describe the two main advantages (in my view, anyway) to avoiding BGOL.It's also a mistake to get too caught up in the transition between braking and changing gear without considering how it fits in with the rest of the five phases. Have a read of my previous post on how to apply the Roadcraft system to negotiating a roundabout:
Reg's previous post on how to apply the Roadcraft system to negotiating a roundabout.
R_U_LOCAL said:
To avoid repeating myself, have a read of my post on the previous page, in which I describe the two main advantages (in my view, anyway) to avoiding BGOL.
Apologies, where you meaning this?R_U_LOCAL said:
SPEED
The speed phase can overlap with the position phase and starts as soon as we lift off the throttle and the car starts to lose speed. At 70mph+, wind resistance will bring the car's speed down quite a bit before we start to brake. Remember that the information phase runs throughout the system, so as we start to brake, we're continuing to assess the movements of vehicles at, and on the approach to the roundabout.
It's at this point where we really don't want to commit one way or the other. If you only plan to stop at this stage, you're adopting an inflexible approach which will only work if you actually do have to stop. But if you've committed to stopping, taken an intermediate gear and traffic then starts moving up ahead, you have to quickly change your plan to suit, which may mean that the intermediate gear you've just taken is too low or too high and you'll need to fluff around for a more appropriate gear.
So the Roadcraft system advises that, wherever possible, we treat the speed phase as a single phase, and we try to keep it seperated from the gear phase, which will allow us to keep our options more open in situations like this.
So we'd brake down, planning to stop but looking to go, and hold back on choosing a gear until we know we'll be able to definitely go.
This may be when we're down to 30, 20, 10, or stopped, but by delaying the decision on which gear to take - even if that means dipping the clutch in 6th at a speed which may, at first, feel wrong, then we're keeping our options open until we know it's time for the fourth phase...
I can sort of see what you are saying, but surely using the gears while you slow down is no more hassle?The speed phase can overlap with the position phase and starts as soon as we lift off the throttle and the car starts to lose speed. At 70mph+, wind resistance will bring the car's speed down quite a bit before we start to brake. Remember that the information phase runs throughout the system, so as we start to brake, we're continuing to assess the movements of vehicles at, and on the approach to the roundabout.
It's at this point where we really don't want to commit one way or the other. If you only plan to stop at this stage, you're adopting an inflexible approach which will only work if you actually do have to stop. But if you've committed to stopping, taken an intermediate gear and traffic then starts moving up ahead, you have to quickly change your plan to suit, which may mean that the intermediate gear you've just taken is too low or too high and you'll need to fluff around for a more appropriate gear.
So the Roadcraft system advises that, wherever possible, we treat the speed phase as a single phase, and we try to keep it seperated from the gear phase, which will allow us to keep our options more open in situations like this.
So we'd brake down, planning to stop but looking to go, and hold back on choosing a gear until we know we'll be able to definitely go.
This may be when we're down to 30, 20, 10, or stopped, but by delaying the decision on which gear to take - even if that means dipping the clutch in 6th at a speed which may, at first, feel wrong, then we're keeping our options open until we know it's time for the fourth phase...
If you are in the ops example 6th and wait and wait and wait and finally need 2nd. Is it really any quicker then slowing using the brakes and gears and say be in 2nd already at the point you wanted to accelerate. And if you decided to stop, it again would be no more hassle than stopping in 6th.
R_U_LOCAL said:
It's also a mistake to get too caught up in the transition between braking and changing gear without considering how it fits in with the rest of the five phases. Have a read of my previous post on how to apply the Roadcraft system to negotiating a roundabout:
Reg's previous post on how to apply the Roadcraft system to negotiating a roundabout.
Yep read it. Unless I missed your mention of it, I didn't see anything about not using the gears.Reg's previous post on how to apply the Roadcraft system to negotiating a roundabout.
Not saying it's wrong, as evidently it's something taught. But I fail to see where any advantage could be gained? And I guess that's what I'm asking, which the above text doesn't cover.
Under what circumstances would not changing gear being better than being in the right gear?
300bhp/ton said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
To avoid repeating myself, have a read of my post on the previous page, in which I describe the two main advantages (in my view, anyway) to avoiding BGOL.
Apologies, where you meaning this?In his post on the previous page Reg said:
There are two fundamental advantages to keeping (wherever possible) the braking and gearchanging phases seperate.
The first is that it allows the driver time to make the gearchange smoothly by raising or lowering the revs as appropriate to match engine speed to road speed in the new gear.
The second is that it encourages a consistant mental approach to every hazard - the driver stays on the brakes until their speed is correct for the hazard before selecting the appropriate gear. In other words, if a hazard requires a reduction in speed from braking, the driver will remain on the brakes until they are certain their speed is correct. Only when they're sure their speed is correct will they know which gear is appropriate, so they then come off the brakes, select that gear and accelerate.
The first is that it allows the driver time to make the gearchange smoothly by raising or lowering the revs as appropriate to match engine speed to road speed in the new gear.
The second is that it encourages a consistant mental approach to every hazard - the driver stays on the brakes until their speed is correct for the hazard before selecting the appropriate gear. In other words, if a hazard requires a reduction in speed from braking, the driver will remain on the brakes until they are certain their speed is correct. Only when they're sure their speed is correct will they know which gear is appropriate, so they then come off the brakes, select that gear and accelerate.
R_U_LOCAL said:
300bhp/ton said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
To avoid repeating myself, have a read of my post on the previous page, in which I describe the two main advantages (in my view, anyway) to avoiding BGOL.
Apologies, where you meaning this?In his post on the previous page Reg said:
There are two fundamental advantages to keeping (wherever possible) the braking and gearchanging phases seperate.
The first is that it allows the driver time to make the gearchange smoothly by raising or lowering the revs as appropriate to match engine speed to road speed in the new gear.
The second is that it encourages a consistant mental approach to every hazard - the driver stays on the brakes until their speed is correct for the hazard before selecting the appropriate gear. In other words, if a hazard requires a reduction in speed from braking, the driver will remain on the brakes until they are certain their speed is correct. Only when they're sure their speed is correct will they know which gear is appropriate, so they then come off the brakes, select that gear and accelerate.
The first is that it allows the driver time to make the gearchange smoothly by raising or lowering the revs as appropriate to match engine speed to road speed in the new gear.
The second is that it encourages a consistant mental approach to every hazard - the driver stays on the brakes until their speed is correct for the hazard before selecting the appropriate gear. In other words, if a hazard requires a reduction in speed from braking, the driver will remain on the brakes until they are certain their speed is correct. Only when they're sure their speed is correct will they know which gear is appropriate, so they then come off the brakes, select that gear and accelerate.
The 2nd, well what difference does it make? If you are changing gear, you are changing gear. Arguably if the final gear you need is 2nd, then if you'd slowed up using the gears and where in 3rd, it's an easier quicker shift than going 6th -> 2nd, which is just a clunky physical movement.
See there's this thing that happens when everything is done in a particular order and at a particular time and speed. Using the term 'smoothness', doesn't really do it justice because it's far more than just smoothness, which is a feeling. What happens (see Car Balance, Advanced and Performance Driving, Reg Local, ch.13,p.77) is the car doesn't roll or tilt as much as if someone simply plants their foot on the brake (nose dips), changes gear (see Brake-Gear Overlap), turns the wheel while braking causing a sensation of being pulled off the apex of the bend and then accelerates which forces the weight backwards onto the rear wheels.
If you imagine it as like trying to balance a snookerball on a round metal tray, which is being held up above your head just by your fingertips of one hand, you'll soon see that the points of balance very much depend upon what you're doing while holding said tray and ball. The lesser and fewer the forces on you, the more likely it is that you'll hold the tray flat and the ball won't move as much. But add in trying to do this while standing on the top deck of a bus (i'm exaggerating because sometimes it helps to amplify things a bit) and you'll soon find the ball flying off the front of the tray when the bus brakes, flying off the front left of the tray when the bus brakes and turns right and then flying off the back left of the tray when the bus is still turning right and accelerating around the bend. Or worse still falling off the left side of the tray because the cornering and braking forces destabilised the ball so much that it went flying off sideways....as you'll find many bikes and cars do mid bend and into the scenery.
So if you're driving well within your grip limits and nothing else happens while cornering a right hander, you'll go into and around the bend and exit out the other side, with your passenger's face squashed against their window and they will have moved back and forth with the braking, gear changing, cornering forces and accelerating. If, however, you already chose the position you'd like to take the right hand bend (Position), then slowed down before the bend(Speed), selected the right gear (Gear)after slowing down and then enter the bend while holding the car at a constant speed with the accelerator (Accelerate)pedal, you've broken the whole thing down into separate sections (IPSGA) and no two things overlap (Brake Gear OverLap or BGOL). Of course, how you steer also matters and so if you can smoothe the whole thing out, you'll be able to take bends at no less than the same speed, if not a higher speed than had you charged into it.
I think that sort of covers it.
If you imagine it as like trying to balance a snookerball on a round metal tray, which is being held up above your head just by your fingertips of one hand, you'll soon see that the points of balance very much depend upon what you're doing while holding said tray and ball. The lesser and fewer the forces on you, the more likely it is that you'll hold the tray flat and the ball won't move as much. But add in trying to do this while standing on the top deck of a bus (i'm exaggerating because sometimes it helps to amplify things a bit) and you'll soon find the ball flying off the front of the tray when the bus brakes, flying off the front left of the tray when the bus brakes and turns right and then flying off the back left of the tray when the bus is still turning right and accelerating around the bend. Or worse still falling off the left side of the tray because the cornering and braking forces destabilised the ball so much that it went flying off sideways....as you'll find many bikes and cars do mid bend and into the scenery.
So if you're driving well within your grip limits and nothing else happens while cornering a right hander, you'll go into and around the bend and exit out the other side, with your passenger's face squashed against their window and they will have moved back and forth with the braking, gear changing, cornering forces and accelerating. If, however, you already chose the position you'd like to take the right hand bend (Position), then slowed down before the bend(Speed), selected the right gear (Gear)after slowing down and then enter the bend while holding the car at a constant speed with the accelerator (Accelerate)pedal, you've broken the whole thing down into separate sections (IPSGA) and no two things overlap (Brake Gear OverLap or BGOL). Of course, how you steer also matters and so if you can smoothe the whole thing out, you'll be able to take bends at no less than the same speed, if not a higher speed than had you charged into it.
I think that sort of covers it.
ORD said:
The 'by-the-book' way seems obviously worse to me than changing down into an intermediate gear that may well be good for the obstacle.
The most common example is braking for a roundabout. I will brake down to an appropriate speed for 4, 3 or 2 depending on the size of the roundabout and visibility. I then select that gear and am ready to either accelerate or brake more when I see whether or not I can join the roundabout. I don't see the sense at all in waiting until the last moment to choose an appropriate gear. Separating braking and gears would mean being in a gear you can't use at the moment when you take the decision to stick or twist. Why not select a useful gear before you have to use it?
A lot of the difficulties people experience come from not getting observations out early enough .The most common example is braking for a roundabout. I will brake down to an appropriate speed for 4, 3 or 2 depending on the size of the roundabout and visibility. I then select that gear and am ready to either accelerate or brake more when I see whether or not I can join the roundabout. I don't see the sense at all in waiting until the last moment to choose an appropriate gear. Separating braking and gears would mean being in a gear you can't use at the moment when you take the decision to stick or twist. Why not select a useful gear before you have to use it?
As soon as you see the roundabout ahead , you should have decided on your course through it and positioned the car accordingly , then you are looking at the traffic flow and looking for the gap to proceed - this will determine your approach speed and , in turn , the correct gear for the hazard ( see the video I posted earlier , where I talk about the gap in the traffic from more than 100 yds back ) on that free flowing road it was easy to come up to the roundabout and proceed without any interruption ; sometimes there is no gap and you have to stop ( in which case the gear is neutral , or one if you anticipate moving off imminently ) .
Either way , though , the decision to go or not go is taken some way back from the roundabout ( other hazard ) and not at the last moment .
Extra gear changes are needless actions and a waste of effort , it just comes down to observation and planning .
Edited by Pontoneer on Monday 17th August 18:18
ZedLeppelin said:
There are only two ways by which I can tell if my driving is safe. Either I have driven for decades without a single contact incident/ constant near misses/ people having to run in order to avoid me.... you get the picture. Or I need some form of assessment such as that offered by IAM or RoSPA because, as I have been told by the evangelists, I was "lucky". I'd hire a coach with your enlightened attitude, if I could turn back time.
Through sheer curiosity, I opted to voluntarily be taught and assessed by both the IAM and RoSPA. At no point was I ever told that as long as whatever I do is safe, that's fine, carry on, nothing to see here. Much as I'd wished they had. I was told that I was dangerous for BGOL, mis- holding the steering wheel for 3:15, not driving fast enough.....I passed one test with their top grade after all but a few observed drives.
Now I'm in complete agreement that the most efficient way to teach drivers to a certain standard, is to work to a system and as long as the person requires an altered technique due to bad outcomes, fine. The Met designed Roadcraft because their drivers couldn't chase and catch baddies without killing innocent people along the way, so they systemised their technique. Fine. But for those organisations to treat every single driver who doesn't drive exactly to IPSGA as dangerous hooligans, who are lucky to still be alive etc, is way out of line. So while I can see the validity of systemised approaches, as we agree, sometimes, if it's not causing any issues, the driver should be left alone to do it their way. It's likely that sometimes they do incidentally stumble into IPSGA and let's be fair, all drivers take and give Information, all except a few occasionally misjudge their Speed, their Gear and their Acceleration one way or the other. But the outcomes are hardly continual carnage, are they, except for rare occasions. Millions of drivers who haven't done anything harmful when driving are to understand that unless they can quote Roadcraft, that they're just plain lucky?!
The other thing I'd like to say is that the business model of getting every driver to be systemised, is bonkers because it simply won't happen. So instead, why not adopt your attitude towards this and let sleeping dogs lie unless alteration is required due to poor outcomes?
As you can see, I'm not grinding an axe because I accept that there are drivers who need to hold a steering wheel differently but only those for whom serious issues arise. Examine outcomes, it's a much more sane way to go about this.
Well said. Through sheer curiosity, I opted to voluntarily be taught and assessed by both the IAM and RoSPA. At no point was I ever told that as long as whatever I do is safe, that's fine, carry on, nothing to see here. Much as I'd wished they had. I was told that I was dangerous for BGOL, mis- holding the steering wheel for 3:15, not driving fast enough.....I passed one test with their top grade after all but a few observed drives.
Now I'm in complete agreement that the most efficient way to teach drivers to a certain standard, is to work to a system and as long as the person requires an altered technique due to bad outcomes, fine. The Met designed Roadcraft because their drivers couldn't chase and catch baddies without killing innocent people along the way, so they systemised their technique. Fine. But for those organisations to treat every single driver who doesn't drive exactly to IPSGA as dangerous hooligans, who are lucky to still be alive etc, is way out of line. So while I can see the validity of systemised approaches, as we agree, sometimes, if it's not causing any issues, the driver should be left alone to do it their way. It's likely that sometimes they do incidentally stumble into IPSGA and let's be fair, all drivers take and give Information, all except a few occasionally misjudge their Speed, their Gear and their Acceleration one way or the other. But the outcomes are hardly continual carnage, are they, except for rare occasions. Millions of drivers who haven't done anything harmful when driving are to understand that unless they can quote Roadcraft, that they're just plain lucky?!
The other thing I'd like to say is that the business model of getting every driver to be systemised, is bonkers because it simply won't happen. So instead, why not adopt your attitude towards this and let sleeping dogs lie unless alteration is required due to poor outcomes?
As you can see, I'm not grinding an axe because I accept that there are drivers who need to hold a steering wheel differently but only those for whom serious issues arise. Examine outcomes, it's a much more sane way to go about this.
ZedLeppelin said:
I think that sort of covers it.
If this was a reply to me. No it doesn't cover it at all.ZedLeppelin said:
If, however, you already chose the position you'd like to take the right hand bend (Position),
ZedLeppelin said:
then slowed down before the bend(Speed),
It's this bit. What advantage do you have by not going down the gears at the same time? Or what benefit do you gain by keeping it in a gear you know you don't want?ZedLeppelin said:
selected the right gear (Gear)after slowing down
If you use engine braking in combination with pedal braking, you will either already be in the right gear, probably smoother. And worst case you will have the gear stick closer to the gear you want, so if you still have to change gear, it will be a quicker smoother action than having held it in the wrong gear.ZedLeppelin said:
and then enter the bend while holding the car at a constant speed with the accelerator (Accelerate)pedal, you've broken the whole thing down into separate sections (IPSGA) and no two things overlap (Brake Gear OverLap or BGOL). Of course.
I'm not objecting to people wanting to drive like this. But what I can't see is the advantage of doing so or the disadvantage of not. Smoothness certainly can't be the answer, as you can be more smooth using engine braking. And you won't have the potential clunky gearchange at the last min (ops example of 6th down to maybe 2nd gear).300bhp/ton said:
If you use engine braking in combination with pedal braking, you will either already be in the right gear, probably smoother. And worst case you will have the gear stick closer to the gear you want, so if you still have to change gear, it will be a quicker smoother action than having held it in the wrong gear.
Are you heel toeing when changing down the box? If not, then when you release the clutch, the clutch drag adds additional braking force whilst it's dragging the engine speed up to the right speed. That means that to maintain a constant braking force (i.e smooth braking), you have to fade out the foot brake whilst bringing up the clutch and then increase the foot brake pressure again once the engine is up to speed. It's a lot easier to maintain a fixed deceleration when the engine is providing a constant braking force. IcedKiwi said:
Are you heel toeing when changing down the box? If not, then when you release the clutch, the clutch drag adds additional braking force whilst it's dragging the engine speed up to the right speed. That means that to maintain a constant braking force (i.e smooth braking), you have to fade out the foot brake whilst bringing up the clutch and then increase the foot brake pressure again once the engine is up to speed. It's a lot easier to maintain a fixed deceleration when the engine is providing a constant braking force.
Not all cars have pedals suitable for heel and toe. So no, not on every car and not every time. Yes I'd modulate the brake pedal. That said, even without doing this, so long as you aren't changing down to early or too many gears at a time, there will be hardly any change to the smoothness. Certainly not enough to make people bob back and forth in their seats.Not using engine braking certainly isn't how I see race/rally cars being driven, even when smoothly done. And on cars with rubbish brakes, old cars or something heavy, you'd welcome the additional engine braking. Not only to make the whole thing smoother, but safer.
And I'm not sure you can just apply a static pressure on a brake pedal to achieve constant braking force anyhow. Maybe in some cars, but heat and friction will change during the braking manoeuvre. Especially if it is a repeated exercise over several round abouts.
I'm assuming that the system does not teach the same approach for an automated manual 'box, which generally can't block-shift - this would then require the driver to make five separate gear changes at the OP's roundabout when coming to a halt - clearly not a good idea and certainly puts the driver in a position where he can't make a decision to pull onto the roundabout into a safe gap, as he's still in 6th gear (preparing to stop), but now has to flap his paddles or his gearlever four or five times in order to be in the right gear. On a mid-90s BMW SMG, or worse still, an Alfa/Fiat Selespeed, this will take several minutes ('orrible devices....)
I can see that done badly, BGOL would be undesirable. However, in 35 years of riding / driving, I don't believe its ever caused me or my passengers any issue and I've certainly never got close to losing control of a car while doing it
Its this final point that I think Reg is agreeing to - if it works for you and is safe, carry on. However if you're being examined under a system that frowns on it, then you should be prepared to abandon BGOL, at least until the examiner is out of the car....
I can (partly) understand why the system teaches that BGOL shouldn't happen, but with some cars, it creates a new set of problems that are actually less easy to cope with than the perceived problem with BGOL in the first place - is it time for an updating of the guidance?
I can see that done badly, BGOL would be undesirable. However, in 35 years of riding / driving, I don't believe its ever caused me or my passengers any issue and I've certainly never got close to losing control of a car while doing it
Its this final point that I think Reg is agreeing to - if it works for you and is safe, carry on. However if you're being examined under a system that frowns on it, then you should be prepared to abandon BGOL, at least until the examiner is out of the car....
I can (partly) understand why the system teaches that BGOL shouldn't happen, but with some cars, it creates a new set of problems that are actually less easy to cope with than the perceived problem with BGOL in the first place - is it time for an updating of the guidance?
Nigel_O said:
However if you're being examined under a system that frowns on it, then you should be prepared to abandon BGOL,
That's one of the key bits I don't get. There so far doesn't seem to be any advantage to avoiding BGOL but plenty of risk of being in the wrong gear if you do avoid BGOL.I'm not against either way, have used both on the road. But I struggle to see how anything "advanced" driving can so heavily promote one and shun the other, so much that shouldn't even use it?
If there was a clear advantage, then that's fine. But I'm still waiting to be enlightened to what it is.
And driving something like this corncart with 10 tonne of corn behind you, would frankly be hugely dangerous if you avoided BGOL.
I know it's not exactly the same thing, but surely good driving practices, driving smoothness and safety should transcend almost any vehicle, as they all adhere to the same laws of physics.
Nigel_O said:
I'm assuming that the system does not teach the same approach for an automated manual 'box, which generally can't block-shift - this would then require the driver to make five separate gear changes at the OP's roundabout when coming to a halt - clearly not a good idea and certainly puts the driver in a position where he can't make a decision to pull onto the roundabout into a safe gap, as he's still in 6th gear (preparing to stop), but now has to flap his paddles or his gearlever four or five times in order to be in the right gear. On a mid-90s BMW SMG, or worse still, an Alfa/Fiat Selespeed, this will take several minutes ('orrible devices....)
I can see that done badly, BGOL would be undesirable. However, in 35 years of riding / driving, I don't believe its ever caused me or my passengers any issue and I've certainly never got close to losing control of a car while doing it
Its this final point that I think Reg is agreeing to - if it works for you and is safe, carry on. However if you're being examined under a system that frowns on it, then you should be prepared to abandon BGOL, at least until the examiner is out of the car....
I can (partly) understand why the system teaches that BGOL shouldn't happen, but with some cars, it creates a new set of problems that are actually less easy to cope with than the perceived problem with BGOL in the first place - is it time for an updating of the guidance?
In my Skoda with DSG as I slow down the gearbox changes down. I never arrive at 20mph and still in 6th. Even if I am in manual mode (very rare for me) the gearbox will not stay in a gear which the software considers too high for the current speed. I can see that done badly, BGOL would be undesirable. However, in 35 years of riding / driving, I don't believe its ever caused me or my passengers any issue and I've certainly never got close to losing control of a car while doing it
Its this final point that I think Reg is agreeing to - if it works for you and is safe, carry on. However if you're being examined under a system that frowns on it, then you should be prepared to abandon BGOL, at least until the examiner is out of the car....
I can (partly) understand why the system teaches that BGOL shouldn't happen, but with some cars, it creates a new set of problems that are actually less easy to cope with than the perceived problem with BGOL in the first place - is it time for an updating of the guidance?
Glosphil said:
In my Skoda with DSG as I slow down the gearbox changes down. I never arrive at 20mph and still in 6th. Even if I am in manual mode (very rare for me) the gearbox will not stay in a gear which the software considers too high for the current speed.
I guessed that more modern systems, especially twin-clutch jobbies, have an "auto-mode", where the box changes down for the driver when the ECU mapping decides the current gear is not the most appropriate.Either way, my point is still that an automated manual will nearly always have to go down through the gears one at a time, because there is no other way to do it. Some boxes will force BGOL and other less intelligent types will leave the driver furiously flapping his paddles as he comes to a standstill.
Admittedly, a forced or voluntary BGOL on a DSG box removes two of the key perceived problems with BGOL - the removal of a hand from the wheel and the removal of drive to the wheels
Lets condense a lot of the above into a simple question - which of these three is worse:-
1) Coasting clutch-in from (say) 25-30mph in 6th gear in a tall-geared diesel?
2) Being in the wrong gear?
3) BGOL?
None are particularly life-threatening, I'll grant you, but I seem to remember being coached that coasting was a definite non-no, I should always be in the right gear, and I should never overlap brakes and gears.
Its clear that 3) causes either 1) or 2)
I'd also add an observation - I reckon most drivers will be faster, smoother and more reliable at gearchanges when they are "natural" - ie going from whatever gear they are in, to the next one, whether its up or down. Asking a driver to perform a gearchange that isn't "normal" (ie a block-change) is asking for an incorrect gear to be selected.
I've done it on my leggy Alfa GT, where the gearchange cables are a bit stretched and there's side-to-side play in the selection mechanism - in 6th, go for 4th and get either 6th again or 2nd
I also did it in a Ferrari F355 cruising at 60-ish in 6th gear, gap opens - go for 4th and I got 2nd. Thankfully, the F355 has an 8,500rpm redline, so it'll do 70+ in 2nd anyway, but it woke the passenger up a bit....
300bhp/ton said:
And driving something like this corncart with 10 tonne of corn behind you, would frankly be hugely dangerous if you avoided BGOL.
I know it's not exactly the same thing, but surely good driving practices, driving smoothness and safety should transcend almost any vehicle, as they all adhere to the same laws of physics.
Nice MB Trac !I know it's not exactly the same thing, but surely good driving practices, driving smoothness and safety should transcend almost any vehicle, as they all adhere to the same laws of physics.
A farmer friend has one just like it .
Nigel_O said:
I'd also add an observation - I reckon most drivers will be faster, smoother and more reliable at gearchanges when they are "natural" - ie going from whatever gear they are in, to the next one, whether its up or down. Asking a driver to perform a gearchange that isn't "normal" (ie a block-change) is asking for an incorrect gear to be selected.
For some (most?) drivers block changing is more normal and natural than going through every intermediate gear. In any case you're selecting the gear from neutral irrespective of what gear you were in before, and if you're that worried about an incorrect gear selection that's all the more reason for minimising the number of gear changes.Dr Jekyll said:
and if you're that worried about an incorrect gear selection that's all the more reason for minimising the number of gear changes.
You've missed the point - when I change sequentially, I rarely, if ever fluff a gearchange. However, when I block-change, I occasionally get it wrongI'd be surprised if block-changing is the norm, but seeing as both of us are guessing, I suppose we'll have to wait until someone comes along with some hard facts
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