Modern gearing + BGOL

[Granfondo]

My daughter has just passed her driving test and she was taught to leave the car in top gear coming up to roundabouts and junctions till the last moment.
Followed by selecting first while still moving!

It's total crap!

[Nigel_O]

Granfondo said:

Followed by selecting first while still moving!

Ouch.... Not many cars I've driven particularly liked going into first at anything other than standstill.

[Granfondo]

Nigel_O said:

Granfondo said:

Followed by selecting first while still moving!

Ouch.... Not many cars I've driven particularly liked going into first at anything other than standstill.

Correct, if it's moving then 2nd should be selected. IMO .

[SVS]

Block changing will be normal for many drivers, because block changing has been taught for the L-test since around the nineties (or possibly longer). In cars with a regular manual box, sequential changing has been outmoded for years!

Edited by SVS on Tuesday 18th August 23:08

[MC Bodge]

Nigel_O said:

Granfondo said:

Followed by selecting first while still moving!

Ouch.... Not many cars I've driven particularly liked going into first at anything other than standstill.

Double de clutching is the key. Combined with heel and toe, of course.

I suspect that the Driving test doesn't teach that, though.

[SVS]

Granfondo said:

It's total crap!

As with most things in driving, it depends, doesn't it? At low speed, 2nd gear could be better. At very low speed, 1st gear could be better. It depends just how low the speed is. It also depends on the car. Without being in the exact car at the exact speed, and judging the timing of the gear change, I'd argue that it's hard to judge if 1st or 2nd gear is better.

One of the problems with this thread is that so much depends on timing and feel, which are impossible to convey well in words. They are better conveyed in-car.

[Granfondo]

MC Bodge said:

Double de clutching is the key. Combined with heel and toe, of course.

I suspect that the Driving test doesn't teach that, though.

Rev matching maybe but double de cluching on a car with synchromesh seems redundant. Imo

[MC Bodge]

Granfondo said:

MC Bodge said:

Double de clutching is the key. Combined with heel and toe, of course.

I suspect that the Driving test doesn't teach that, though.

Rev matching maybe but double de cluching on a car with synchromesh seems redundant. Imo

Yes, it is fairly academic, although it does help the gears shift nicely,

It really does make it easier to shift down into first whilst moving.

[ORD]

Granfondo said:

Correct, if it's moving then 2nd should be selected. IMO .

Sooooooo wrong. If you are about to accelerate, selecting 2nd gear at (for example) less than 8mph is pretty damn unkind to the engine (for a lot of cars).

[Nigel_O]

ORD said:

Sooooooo wrong. If you are about to accelerate, selecting 2nd gear at (for example) less than 8mph is pretty damn unkind to the engine (for a lot of cars).

Depends entirely on the car - most modern turbo diesels with a manual box have a short 1st gear, its designed just to get the thing moving - in mine, if I'm moving at anything more than a trickle (ie up to slow walking pace), I'll always use second gear to move away. In fact if it wasn't for the outrageous cost of a dual mass flywheel and clutch, I'd probably never use 1st at all. The ultra short rev range of most diesels is a great advert for 7+ speed auto boxes which do all the cog-stirring work for you

By comparison, in my turbo-nutter car, 1st is good for well over 40, but it really doesn't like selecting 1st while its moving (draggy motorsport clutch) - if I could actually select 1st gear, I'd probably use it to accelerate even if I was doing 15-ish mph. Thankfully, I'm not bothered by standing start acceleration, so I usually leave it in 2nd and count to ten while the turbo spools up....

[ZedLeppelin]

300bhp/ton said:

ZedLeppelin said:

I think that sort of covers it.

If this was a reply to me. No it doesn't cover it at all.

ZedLeppelin said:

If, however, you already chose the position you'd like to take the right hand bend (Position),

ZedLeppelin said:

then slowed down before the bend(Speed),

It's this bit. What advantage do you have by not going down the gears at the same time? Or what benefit do you gain by keeping it in a gear you know you don't want?

ZedLeppelin said:

selected the right gear (Gear)after slowing down

If you use engine braking in combination with pedal braking, you will either already be in the right gear, probably smoother. And worst case you will have the gear stick closer to the gear you want, so if you still have to change gear, it will be a quicker smoother action than having held it in the wrong gear.

ZedLeppelin said:

and then enter the bend while holding the car at a constant speed with the accelerator (Accelerate)pedal, you've broken the whole thing down into separate sections (IPSGA) and no two things overlap (Brake Gear OverLap or BGOL). Of course.

I'm not objecting to people wanting to drive like this. But what I can't see is the advantage of doing so or the disadvantage of not. Smoothness certainly can't be the answer, as you can be more smooth using engine braking. And you won't have the potential clunky gearchange at the last min (ops example of 6th down to maybe 2nd gear).

One of the most under mentioned rules of driving is that there is a need for flexibility when considering 'rules'. In order to be able to apply them flexibly, its first necessary to know what the various techniques are and how to do them. These rules very much depend upon lots of varying factors, such as your example of not wanting to be in the way of a combine harvester when turning left in front of it. So there are occasions when Heel Toe and brake gear overlap do/don't make sense. The thing is that if you don't know how to apply these techniques when needed, you'll always drive the way you have in such situations and get the same outcomes.

Overall, most drivers never come close to the handling limits of their cars and so whenever other ways of doing things are insisted upon, as for training for advanced driving and police driving tests, they don't get what it's all about.

One thing that it's all about is balance. If it's interesting to you, find an advanced driving coach and find out about what's necessary to balance a car. When I say balance, what I mean is barely being able to perceive motion with your eyes closed, when driving at almost any speed, aside from uneven road surfaces. It's quite something to experience this and another to try to master it as a skill. Everything you do when driving your car, can be seen in terms of balance. Stopping, going, turning, changing gears all affect balance. I was hooked on smoothness after experiencing it and I'm still working at it.

Of course, you don't have to do any of this but it seems that you are interested in it, so why not go and learn more about it? There's only so much that can be learned through discussion, after all.

[ShaunTheSheep]

Nigel_O said:

but as I'm not braking heavily, the removal of drive from the wheels is never going to cause any issues. If I was braking so hard that changing gear would destabilise the car, I've probably got far bigger problems on my hands....

This makes a lot of sense to me but I got marked down for it.

I was on a long straight NSL A road and was to make a right onto a minor road about half way along.

As I slowed (with no one behind to show a brake light to) I came down through the gears. The argument was that I could have deferred slowing until later if I used only the brakes and that would have meant I spent more time at higher speed and so covered more ground in the same time.

[kev b]

Perhaps 6th gear in a Tdi could be equated to an old fashioned overdrive.

What technique is advised when driving a car with switch activated overdrive eg Scimitar, MGB,
Jaguar etc?

I have recently had a few driving lessons in preparation for a Taxi test and found the block changing and leaving the clutch up until the engine juddered totally alien, so much so that I really struggled as after 35 years it was very hard to alter what had become automatic for me.

Also I swap between different makes and models and the difference in gearing is marked, some will pull off comfortably in second whilst others judder or try and stall, some have very high third gears etc.

I am sure the manual would say to familiarise oneself with the vehicle on a quiet road but this is not always possible, I feel a lot safer "going down the gears" than trying to block change an unfamiliar car with passengers on board.

In addition I am sure the extra strain on the DMF will shorten its life considerably, not something that bothers the new buyer who will part with the vehicle before the damage shows but a time bomb for subsequent owners.

[ZedLeppelin]

And this is precisely the reason why Roadcraft is meant, as intended, to be used as a tuition guide for Police officers. Car stability is rarely so critical that changing gear while braking will cause a skid, so don't get hung up on it.

If, however, you are interested in how to balance a car to the point that it barely tilts or rolls about, then these techniques are very useful to be able to know how to do. Insisting on separating Braking and Gear changing is rarely useful, unless the driver is having issues with something as a result of this. So if they're entering corners or bends too quickly and at the same time as tearing around them while changing gear and braking, they'll be among those drivers who end up in the scenery not knowing what happened.

Seriously though, I am practising separating braking and gear changing and I am finding it adds more smoothness to the way the car handles. I was never unsafe when not separating but i'm learning this as a discipline, so for me it's necessary.

[waremark]

kev b said:

I have recently had a few driving lessons in preparation for a Taxi test and found the block changing and leaving the clutch up until the engine juddered totally alien,

.....

I am sure the manual would say to familiarise oneself with the vehicle on a quiet road but this is not always possible, I feel a lot safer "going down the gears" than trying to block change an unfamiliar car with passengers on board.

Should be 'leaving the clutch up until shortly before the engine judders', please.

And your passengers would get the smoothest ride if you use only acceleration sense and braking to slow. It is not difficult to make smooth block changes in unfamiliar cars if that is what you want to do and you concentrate on accurate rev matching.

[kev b]

I don't need to be concentrating on block changing, I need to concentrate on driving.

After driving perfectly smoothly for 35 years going down through the gears as I was taught I shall continue to do so, knowing I am in the correct gear all the time.

I've no axe to grind with people who choose another method but it suits me to use a technique that to me is automatic, leaving me free to steer, observe, signal etc, one less thing to think about.

For those who promote the "new" way as causing less wear to the transmission and brakes, I think they are mistaken, their release bearing and DMF will be toast long before I've worn out my clutch plate and driveshafts.

Maybe I'm too old to change now, I can live with that.

[Dr Jekyll]

kev b said:

I don't need to be concentrating on block changing, I need to concentrate on driving.

After driving perfectly smoothly for 35 years going down through the gears as I was taught I shall continue to do so, knowing I am in the correct gear all the time.

I've no axe to grind with people who choose another method but it suits me to use a technique that to me is automatic, leaving me free to steer, observe, signal etc, one less thing to think about.

For those who promote the "new" way as causing less wear to the transmission and brakes, I think they are mistaken, their release bearing and DMF will be toast long before I've worn out my clutch plate and driveshafts.

Maybe I'm too old to change now, I can live with that.

So should the rest of us, who have spent 30 odd years driving the way we were taught go over to the 'row the car along with the gear lever' method? Or is it OK for us to carry on we are? It isn't the 'new' method anyway, it's been the norm since approximately the time Borg first met Warner.

What effect block changing is suppose to have on the release bearing and flywheel I can't imagine. If the car isn't built to cope with the conventional gear changing method, then it should be.

[kev b]

I said I had no axe to grind with other peoples driving technique and I certainly do not think that changing your style of driving after 30 years is a good idea, which is why I shall continue to drive the way I do.

[Bigends]

Dont select a gear till you need it - I was always taught - therefore none of this down through the gears malarky

[davepoth]

I do work down through the gears with DDC and H'n'T. I only do it because it's the smoothest way I can drive the car. It does have other benefits (being in the power band at all times, especially when downshifting into first, does give you a bit more opportunity to react to gaps in traffic, for example) but that's by no means the principal reason.