Modern gearing + BGOL

[Nigel_O]

There's been a couple of mentions in this thread about achieving smoothness in driving - I'm all for this, as it saves fuel, wear & tear on the car and simply makes driving easier.

I once had to make very good progress on a journey from Southampton to Birmingham in a diesel Ford Galaxy, with three female colleagues on board, in order for one of them to get home by a certain time. I needed to average over 60mph, which for anyone that knows the M27 / M3 / A34 and M40 is a bit of a task. However all three fell asleep for most of the journey, which I'd like to think means that whilst I was driving pretty quickly, I was also fairly smooth.

However, another thought has occurred to me - driving smoothly can help with lateral and longitudinal movement, but the general state of UK roads means that even the best driver can do nothing about vertical movement. I guess one answer is to drive a floaty barge (Citroen C6 anyone?) but I can't imagine that many UK journeys can ever be classed as "smooth", regardless of how gentle the driving.

Finally, I was thinking about BGOL as I carried on with my preferred method of changing down the gears as I brake. Whilst I accept that the gearchange can be felt in the car (and is thus less smooth than not changing gear), I found I was actually modulating the brake pedal to account for the additional deceleration caused by engaging the clutch - didn't really realise I was doing it until I thought about it, but its proof (in my mind, anyway) that BGOL isn't a pre-requisite to smooth and safe driving

[dvenman]

When ZedLeppelin says "What we need are thinking drivers, not pattern matchers" he's absolutely right.

Most drivers though don't even think, whereas some sort of system/methodology to approach individual hazards then tie the approaches together into a coherent whole does, to me at least, make sense. And drivers who "cars crash, nearly crash, swerve to avoid" aren't thinking about their driving to any great degree...

[ZedLeppelin]

There is a big difference between a driver's ability and their behaviour. Creating drivers who can copy imposed technical abilities, does not necessarily create drivers whose attitudes, responses, emotions or behaviour will match their ability to, for example, corner as stated in a book.

Coaching is different to training for this reason.

[ORD]

I agree completely. There is, however, a positive correlation between being a technically capable driver and being a good driver in a broader sense. I would also expect that training aimed at improving technical skills like smoothness would help adjust the driver's attitude, too - I imagine it is hard to drive very smoothly, with plenty of anticipation, and still be an irritable and impatient driver.

[R_U_LOCAL]

ORD said:

I imagine it is hard to drive very smoothly, with plenty of anticipation, and still be an irritable and impatient driver.

Not at all. I'm able to do this on an almost daily basis with very little effort.

[ORD]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Not at all. I'm able to do this on an almost daily basis with very little effort.

I thought you might say that.

Maybe the converse is true - you will be far more likely to be irritable if you are not anticipating and driving smoothly. Nothing can be done about people who wake up irritable.

[Nigel_O]

ORD said:

I imagine it is hard to drive very smoothly, with plenty of anticipation, and still be an irritable and impatient driver.

Yup, me too - managed almost 55mpg on the commute this morning (normal sub-50), due to chilling out, driving gently and smoothly. Still got wound up by the muppet at the J4 M42 roundabout that stopped 3+ car lengths from the white line at the traffic lights. He waited until the green light before trying to pull away in neutral, then slowly put it in gear and tried again, only to find the handbrake on, and THEN pulled away so slowly that a mobility scooter would have out-dragged him..... I might have sworn a bit....

[creampuff]

Okey, I passed the ROSPA bike test. I'd just like to know why you get taught to BGOL and downshift as you go on a bike but this is a no-no in a car?

[R_U_LOCAL]

creampuff said:

Okey, I passed the ROSPA bike test. I'd just like to know why you get taught to BGOL and downshift as you go on a bike but this is a no-no in a car?

I'm not a motorcyclist, so I cannot write with much authority on this subject, but I did once ask a motorcycle instructor colleague this question.

He told me that sequential motorcycle gearboxes mean that some overlap of the brake & gear phases is almost inevitable when riding a bike, but he taught his students to leave the gearchange until the braking phase was almost complete. So they would brake, and then, once the braking was almost complete, they'd go down through the gears all at once, rather than change down individually throughout the braking phase (if that makes sense?).

[ZedLeppelin]

ORD said:

I agree completely. There is, however, a positive correlation between being a technically capable driver and being a good driver in a broader sense. I would also expect that training aimed at improving technical skills like smoothness would help adjust the driver's attitude, too - I imagine it is hard to drive very smoothly, with plenty of anticipation, and still be an irritable and impatient driver.

I don't necessarily see any causal links between good technique and good attitude or a stable healthy emotional state but there are benefits from learning to control both sides of that equation.

[ZedLeppelin]

creampuff said:

Okey, I passed the ROSPA bike test. I'd just like to know why you get taught to BGOL and downshift as you go on a bike but this is a no-no in a car?

BGOL is not a no-no in a car. Planned BGOL is acceptable. I know, I don't make the rules.....

There has been a great deal made out of BGOL and I believe this is because if you take a gung-ho copper on a shout and put them in control of a car ( a 1970s Ford Escort), the result is likely to be carnage. One way to ensure this carnage is minimised, is to systematise it all and teach it like square bashing ie dogmatically eg. The Hendon way. Emergency service drivers need to know how to corner at speed but civilians rarely exceed 10mph when turning into a side road, so it's far less relevant.

The thing is, that if a standard police driver wants to pass the advanced course, they will find it far easier to adapt to needs and speeds which require a license exemption, if they have made full separation an unconscious competence and they won't pass the course unless they can demonstrate full separation, though this is changing. So at high speeds, the more refined the technique, the less likely the driver will be to slide the car off the road on a bend or corner. Civilians do not require such finely tuned technique because for the most part, they won't be anywhere near to their limits of grip and whether or not they change gear at the same time as braking, the effects on the overall outcome is unlikely to be anywhere near carnage. This is why I argue against the links between police driving and civilian driving.

I think full separation is going to be practiced like a historical reenactment within a few years because automatic cars cause BGOL all the time yet aren't more dangerous to drive and with the rise of electric cars (gearless), there's less need to know about such things and more need to be able to control the car with more/ less power inputs to the electric motors which move the wheels.

Edited by ZedLeppelin on Friday 11th September 08:35

[creampuff]

R_U_LOCAL said:

creampuff said:

Okey, I passed the ROSPA bike test. I'd just like to know why you get taught to BGOL and downshift as you go on a bike but this is a no-no in a car?

I'm not a motorcyclist, so I cannot write with much authority on this subject, but I did once ask a motorcycle instructor colleague this question.

He told me that sequential motorcycle gearboxes mean that some overlap of the brake & gear phases is almost inevitable when riding a bike, but he taught his students to leave the gearchange until the braking phase was almost complete. So they would brake, and then, once the braking was almost complete, they'd go down through the gears all at once, rather than change down individually throughout the braking phase (if that makes sense?).

Both block changing gears and sequential downshifting are both in the bike version of the handbook. Although there is a lot of engine braking on bikes and you tend to ride them in lower gears than you would drive a car anyway so if you sequential change down gears you may not even need to use the brake at all ( though you may want to show a brake light anyway). It seems to be a point of pride among some advanced bikers that they never show a brake light when riding a twisty road. But then my examiner (a former bike copper) was of the opinion that this just meant you were brutalising your gearbox. Who knows which is right!!

[R_U_LOCAL]

creampuff said:

Who knows which is right!!

Definitely not me - bikes are almost a complete mystery to me. I can get on one and make it move, but that's the limit of my skills at the moment I'm afraid.

Although there are some rough plans for me and my mate Daft Andy to do a very long distance charity run on Honda C90s some time in the next couple if years, which will be educational.

[R_U_LOCAL]

creampuff said:

Who knows which is right!!

Definitely not me - bikes are almost a complete mystery to me. I can get on one and make it move, but that's the limit of my skills at the moment I'm afraid.

Although there are some rough plans for me and my mate Daft Andy to do a very long distance charity run on Honda C90s some time in the next couple if years, which will be educational.

[xpc316e]

For me an advantage of not BGOL is that one can then double declutch with ease. If one can double declutch, then one can drive many more vehicles. There are still quite a few vehicles on the road which demand no BGOL.

[MC Bodge]

xpc316e said:

For me an advantage of not BGOL is that one can then double declutch with ease. If one can double declutch, then one can drive many more vehicles. There are still quite a few vehicles on the road which demand no BGOL.

If you can heel-toe properly, you can do both....

[xpc316e]

MC Bodge said:

If you can heel-toe properly, you can do both....

I would love to see what your ankle joint looks like if you can heel and toe in a LGV equipped with a twin-split gearbox.