Indicating on motorways advice needed

[Dr Jekyll]

H4r1s said:

To all those saying they don't indicate when there is a safe gap, either moving out or back into the left lane on the motorway.

What happens when you overtake a vehicle in lane 2, leave a safe gap and without indicating move over back into lane 2. At the same time someone in lane 1 has seen there is a safe gap to pull out into lane 2 and again without indicating will move over.

If either had indicated they would know the other person had the intention to move into lane 2.

Sorry if this has already been covered I didn't read all 10 pages.

It that case it isn't a safe gap. That's why I invariably signal when moving from 3 to 2.

All these arguments for unnecessary signaling. 'It doesn't do any harm and there might be someone there you haven't seen'. Are the same arguments used by those who never exceed 40 in an NSL or ignore perfectly good overtaking opportunities.

[Ahbefive]

For me it is natural to signal when changing lanes or turning into the correct junction and not to signal until I am past any previous junction and on to the one that I want to turn into.

It comes very naturally to me but it seems some struggle with this as I often do see people as you say signalling too early. Unfortunately there are lots of bad drivers doing lots of bad things but I can't do much about other peoples poor awareness or driving standards.

[Vipers]

H4r1s said:

To all those saying they don't indicate when there is a safe gap, either moving out or back into the left lane on the motorway.

What happens when you overtake a vehicle in lane 2, leave a safe gap and without indicating move over back into lane 2. At the same time someone in lane 1 has seen there is a safe gap to pull out into lane 2 and again without indicating will move over.

If either had indicated they would know the other person had the intention to move into lane 2.

Sorry if this has already been covered I didn't read all 10 pages.

Happened a few times, there's where you need to apply anticipation and observation, and allow for idiots. In this situation there is nothing stopping you indication to pull left, (never is), although it's not mandatory. That action should make your intentions clear.

Edited by Vipers on Wednesday 11th January 10:47

[RobM77]

Dr Jekyll said:

H4r1s said:

To all those saying they don't indicate when there is a safe gap, either moving out or back into the left lane on the motorway.

What happens when you overtake a vehicle in lane 2, leave a safe gap and without indicating move over back into lane 2. At the same time someone in lane 1 has seen there is a safe gap to pull out into lane 2 and again without indicating will move over.

If either had indicated they would know the other person had the intention to move into lane 2.

Sorry if this has already been covered I didn't read all 10 pages.

It that case it isn't a safe gap. That's why I invariably signal when moving from 3 to 2.

All these arguments for unnecessary signaling. 'It doesn't do any harm and there might be someone there you haven't seen'. Are the same arguments used by those who never exceed 40 in an NSL or ignore perfectly good overtaking opportunities.

I think what was meant is that the situation could change in an instant, and unless you drive along looking over your left shoulder permanently, it could happen without your knowledge. The key point here is that you need to signal to people whilst they're planning their moves, not when they're actually moving. No amount of observation is going to tell you what others are thinking about doing, unless it's obvious like a slow vehicle in front of them etc.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 11th January 10:56

[Ahbefive]

Quite simply. Indicators are for indicating just like the steering wheel is for steering and the brakes for stopping. Use them for such.

[waremark]

Ahbefive said:

For me it is natural to signal when changing lanes .....

If you really mean that, I strongly disagree with what you do. If anyone is going to be affected it is better to signal several seconds before changing lanes. Once you start to change lanes there is no point in a signal.

I am one of those who does not signal if no-one is going to be affected. Teaching people to adopt this practice is very helpful in getting people to increase their overall awareness and the extent of their planning.

[RobM77]

There is absolutely no point in signalling if your manoeuvre has started, and that includes any change of speed. Mirror signal manoeuvre is the most basic form of driving and anyone not capable of that (sadly about 99% of drivers!) shouldn't have a license in my opinion.

I completely agree about re-programming the way people think. The difference with me is that I end up signalling most of the time out of courteousy and out of doubt that my observation is perfect.

[Ahbefive]

waremark said:

Ahbefive said:

For me it is natural to signal when changing lanes .....

If you really mean that, I strongly disagree with what you do. If anyone is going to be affected it is better to signal several seconds before changing lanes. Once you start to change lanes there is no point in a signal.

I am one of those who does not signal if no-one is going to be affected. Teaching people to adopt this practice is very helpful in getting people to increase their overall awareness and the extent of their planning.

No, I signal before the manouver has begun to indicate of my intentions to othervroad users, this os what indictors are dor and you should too.

[NuddyRap]

It's just a matter of observation and common sense.

If the information is potentially useful to someone, provide it. If it isn't, don't.

The internal debate about whether or not you should be doing something, or whether or not what you intend to do could be relevant to anyone else on the road at a particular moment causes you to focus more on your driving, assess the situation, and that's a good thing.

Blindly indicating every time you shuffle the car around doesn't make you a good driver as it can be nothing more than a habitual finger twitch.

Being a good driver is about understanding, communication and efficiency. It is not necessarily about steadfastly obeying a set of rules regardless of the situation like a primary school prefect in search of another sticker. Contrary to the IAM's stance, sometimes I see that it is indeed beneficial to be slightly wide of the highway code in the wider interests of communication or safety.

The enemy is lack of thought.

[pim]

Ok I see your point.

But if you tend to indicate when you feel like it becomes a habit.

It is a bit like regular speeding be it a few miles over.Hence the authorities making plenty of money out of it.

[NuddyRap]

pim said:

Ok I see your point.

But if you tend to indicate when you feel like it becomes a habit.

It is a bit like regular speeding be it a few miles over.Hence the authorities making plenty of money out of it.

It's a conscious assessment of relevance - e.g. "Will I be taking any space they might like soon?" "Do they need to know?". If yes, do it. It's not a case of feeling/not feeling like it.

Regular speeding is different, it is a feeling. "Could I be going faster?" on a motorway could often be answered with "yes". A few mph will never have any impact on anyone else if you're driving with due care. But it's illegal of course.

[Vipers]

pim said:

Ok I see your point.

But if you tend to indicate when you feel like it becomes a habit.

It is a bit like regular speeding be it a few miles over.Hence the authorities making plenty of money out of it.

Isn't Mirror, Signal, Manouevour a habit?. Although many cant even manage that.

What ever drivers say, including advanced drivers, indicating to move left on a motorway, although not mandatory, can't be wrong.

[yellowjack]

Not a motorway, I know, but my wife made an observation on my driving this morning on a roundabout. Two lane entry, two lane exit going south to north, with an additional third lane to take traffic off to the right. Left turning traffic doesn't actually enter the roundabout because there's a dedicated left turn lane.

So I cross the roundabout, as usual, in the left of the two available 'straight over' lanes. To which the wife asks "why do you never indicate off the roundabout here?"

So I said "because there's no need", as I don't think there is a need. I can turn left, but I don't want to. By the time I've passed the possible (oops! missed the dedicated left turn!) 1st exit I'm right on the corresponding entry point,which has three lanes, and for the most part it's hard enough staying 'in lane' (marked lanes to guide circulating traffic) because morons have 'crept' forward over the give way line forcing me to be closer to the lane on my offside (also going straight ahead) than I'd like to be.

It also doesn't help anyone to signal left off the roundabout there. I'd have to cross another lane and push into a third to actually go right. I'm hoping this is correct behaviour at this particular roundabout, but also I'm intrigued. You see, my wife pointed this out to me because it's unusual for me to not signal at a roundabout. That's why she'd noticed it many times before. But she only actually mentioned it this morning. Which suggests that I'm making a subconscious decision to not signal in particular circumstances, despite previously seeing myself as a 'signal anyway' sort of driver.

No idea where this is going, other than a simple observation that it takes someone else to notice subtle differences in the way you behave in a particular set of circumstances...

[NuddyRap]

yellowjack said:

Not a motorway, I know, but my wife made an observation on my driving this morning on a roundabout. Two lane entry, two lane exit going south to north, with an additional third lane to take traffic off to the right. Left turning traffic doesn't actually enter the roundabout because there's a dedicated left turn lane.

So I cross the roundabout, as usual, in the left of the two available 'straight over' lanes. To which the wife asks "why do you never indicate off the roundabout here?"

So I said "because there's no need", as I don't think there is a need. I can turn left, but I don't want to. By the time I've passed the possible (oops! missed the dedicated left turn!) 1st exit I'm right on the corresponding entry point,which has three lanes, and for the most part it's hard enough staying 'in lane' (marked lanes to guide circulating traffic) because morons have 'crept' forward over the give way line forcing me to be closer to the lane on my offside (also going straight ahead) than I'd like to be.

It also doesn't help anyone to signal left off the roundabout there. I'd have to cross another lane and push into a third to actually go right. I'm hoping this is correct behaviour at this particular roundabout, but also I'm intrigued. You see, my wife pointed this out to me because it's unusual for me to not signal at a roundabout. That's why she'd noticed it many times before. But she only actually mentioned it this morning. Which suggests that I'm making a subconscious decision to not signal in particular circumstances, despite previously seeing myself as a 'signal anyway' sort of driver.

No idea where this is going, other than a simple observation that it takes someone else to notice subtle differences in the way you behave in a particular set of circumstances...

I wouldn't signal here.

There's realistically no other option but to take the exit ahead, therefore signalling just confirms an apparent inevitability, benefiting nobody.

[titian]

It comes back to, signal if any other road user will benefit from that signal. A "breakaway signal" to the left when leaving a rounabout WILL benifit those waiting to join the roudabout at the next entry point, and those following you.

If there is no one waiting to join nor any following traffic - don't signal.

[Bennet]

The problem with this idea of not signalling when it "isn't necessary" is as follows:

A significant proportion of motorists do not signal. Not out of an intelligent or a considered approach to driving, but out of laziness and apathy. No doubt if I were to chase one down and pin him to the wall and force him to explain himself, he would tell me he doesn't see why it's necessary, or that there was no one who needed any clarification of his intentions.

As advanced motorists (aspiring or actual), one way we can differentiate ourselves from the masses by consistent clear and well timed signalling. My approach is to signal every manoeuvre unless I believe doing so is likely to lead to confusion or encourage someone else to do something unsafe. I do this to primarily to uphold the principals of good signalling.

I realise that a more advanced motorist might correctly recognise occasions when signalling isn't actually necessary, but to other road users, this will appear as lazy and apathetic as it does when carried out by the genuinely lazy and apathetic, and reinforces the modern, lackadaisical approach.

That, I believe, makes a better case for signalling than can be made from the school of thought that signalling habitually might lead to complacent driving. (I would contend rather that complacent driving may include habitual signalling, but certainly isn't caused by it.)

(Apologies if I'm repeating well trodden ground. I did not read the entire thread.)

[Dr Jekyll]

I don't regard myself as an 'Advanced driver'. Despite having passed tests which are 'Advanced' in the relative sense of being a step above the basic test. So I use signals to help or warn other road users not to teach a lesson to the 'masses'. I am as much the masses as anyone else. If no other road user would be helped or warned, then no signal.

[cmaguire]

Bennet said:

The problem with this idea of not signalling when it "isn't necessary" is as follows:

A significant proportion of motorists do not signal. Not out of an intelligent or a considered approach to driving, but out of laziness and apathy. No doubt if I were to chase one down and pin him to the wall and force him to explain himself, he would tell me he doesn't see why it's necessary, or that there was no one who needed any clarification of his intentions.

As advanced motorists (aspiring or actual), one way we can differentiate ourselves from the masses by consistent clear and well timed signalling. My approach is to signal every manoeuvre unless I believe doing so is likely to lead to confusion or encourage someone else to do something unsafe. I do this to primarily to uphold the principals of good signalling.

I realise that a more advanced motorist might correctly recognise occasions when signalling isn't actually necessary, but to other road users, this will appear as lazy and apathetic as it does when carried out by the genuinely lazy and apathetic, and reinforces the modern, lackadaisical approach.

That, I believe, makes a better case for signalling than can be made from the school of thought that signalling habitually might lead to complacent driving. (I would contend rather that complacent driving may include habitual signalling, but certainly isn't caused by it.)

(Apologies if I'm repeating well trodden ground. I did not read the entire thread.)

Well said, it would just be better for all if everybody indicated all the time. Not just the ones who aren't 'advanced drivers' or lazy and apathetic.

[JM]

cmaguire said:

Well said, it would just be better for all if everybody indicated all the time. Not just the ones who aren't 'advanced drivers' or lazy and apathetic.

All the time, every time.

Would you fine or otherwise sanction a driver on a deserted (no following or visible vehicles ahead) motorway for not indicating he was leaving at the upcoming junction?

Why?

[cmaguire]

JM said:

All the time, every time.

Would you fine or otherwise sanction a driver on a deserted (no following or visible vehicles ahead) motorway for not indicating he was leaving at the upcoming junction?

Why?

The idea that not indicating occurs as a conscious decision AFTER performing any necessary other actions prior to changing direction/lane makes me wonder why an individual would not just indicate anyway.
Are you worried about wearing your bulbs/LEDs or the indicator stalk out?

I wonder how many of the drivers that pull out on me without indicating are 'advanced drivers'. Maybe they are just lazy and apathetic. Who knows?

As far as the law and fines goes, I'd rather they buggered off and left us to it. They micro-manage way too much already.