Indicating on motorways advice needed

[vonhosen]

waremark said:

The main advantage of the 'only signal if useful' system is that it imposes a cognitive load. In the context of multilane lane changing, I hope it may result in reduction of inconsiderate lane changing.

VH, can you give a couple of examples of situations where there would be a lower cognitive load from the 'always signal unless it would mislead' system, but where there is no chance of adversely affecting another road user?

However, the choice between these two systems which both involve selective signalling is secondary to the debate. My concern is that a high proportion of the always signal fraternity think that if they signal it is fine to manoeuvre without consideration.

The cognitive load is always there in both systems to be considerate in the lane change.
The ability to survey your surroundings is not tied to or dependent on the use of a 'not giving signal unless there is somebody to benefit from it' system. It can't be assumed that because somebody signals when you don't consider there is anybody necessary that they haven't deployed adequate vision scans. It can just be a philosophical choice.
.
In the system that I am advocating the cognitive load in relation to the signal itself is in relation to the question 'having taken in everything around you, what is the optimum time of using the signal so that it will not mislead?'
In the alternate system there is that consideration, plus the extra load of 'I want to avoid signalling so who is there present that I can justify as benefitting from the signal if given'.

An example I often see is say coming down to a roundabout intending to turn left taking the first exit.

Using the system I'm advocating I checked there is nobody behind, I've also checked there are no junctions on the approach to the roundabout, so there will be nobody to suddenly appear in it & be misled by that left signal, so I give the left signal now. I am now free to concentrate on the roundabout approach (with less focus required on exit 1 to my left & more available for what's approaching from right), entry, gear change etc & if anybody looms into view on the roundabout or approaching it from my exit 1, they can have a good idea of my intention & the signal is visible immediately I am in their view.

Using the 'only signal if someone visible to benefit system' I've checked there is nobody behind. I've checked there are no junctions on the approach to the roundabout, but I am not going to be giving a signal at this stage as there is nobody visible to benefit from it yet. I am now concentrating on the roundabout approach (but I also have to use more of my focus than strictly necessary on exit 1 to the left), entry & gear change, but still having to also consider & be ready to signal if somebody appears & ask myself the question if they'll benefit from it from their position before I give it. That's an unnecessarily increased workload & increases the chance of me missing giving the signal that was needed because I'm busy with the other stuff, or the signal not being on as early as it could be for a vehicle that comes into view because it's not on when they first see me.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 29th October 17:20

[WD39]

Calling, calling, all PH posters...

Thank you for all the replies to the ever expanding conundrum of indicating.

I would suggest that there is a danger of over analysing what is a basic driving skill.

'Conscious thought process'...'cognitive load'...'nothing behind for half a mile'...'something might pop out'

No, I'll pass on all those.

Concluding with: Indicating at all times informs other drivers, pedestrians, cyclists, bikers, horse riders, parents with buggies, and others, what your intentions are.

Over and out.

[Vipers]

WD39 said:

Calling, calling, all PH posters...

Thank you for all the replies to the ever expanding conundrum of indicating.

I would suggest that there is a danger of over analysing what is a basic driving skill.

'Conscious thought process'...'cognitive load'...'nothing behind for half a mile'...'something might pop out'

No, I'll pass on all those.

Concluding with: Indicating at all times informs other drivers, pedestrians, cyclists, bikers, horse riders, parents with buggies, and others, what your intentions are.

Over and out.

And that is the bones of, can't be wrong there, my sentiments exactly. If you indicate and there is no one to see it, so what. Keep,to the KISS principle at all times.

Then again another 10 pages to go no doubt at least.

[johnao]

Vipers said:

And that is the bones of, can't be wrong there, my sentiments exactly. If you indicate and there is no one to see it, so what. Keep,to the KISS principle at all times.

It's the thought processes that are involved which are important. So, the real questions that follow from your assertion are... did you know that there was no one to see the signal before you gave it, or did you realise that there was no one there after you gave signal, or did you simply not know whether there was anyone there?

If, as I'm assuming, you knew there was no one there before you gave the signal, was your thought process... "there's no one there to see me signal, but I'm going to give one anyway, so what?"

[Vipers]

johnao said:

Vipers said:

And that is the bones of, can't be wrong there, my sentiments exactly. If you indicate and there is no one to see it, so what. Keep,to the KISS principle at all times.

It's the thought processes that are involved which are important. So, the real questions that follow from your assertion are... did you know that there was no one to see the signal before you gave it, or did you realise that there was no one there after you gave signal, or did you simply not know whether there was anyone there?

If, as I'm assuming, you knew there was no one there before you gave the signal, was your thought process... "there's no one there to see me signal, but I'm going to give one anyway, so what?"

Your bottom line is correct, check mirrors, as always, signal before manouevour, if there is no one there, nothing is lost, nothing is gained either, just the way I, and probably many others do it. If you choose not to do it, fine.

[shakotan]

JM said:

No need to indicate when returning to your lane after overtaking another vehicle.
(though at times it may be useful to do so)

To me, it depends on the lane. L2 to L1, I never indicate left, as it's not serving as useful to any other road user. The traffic in L1 is moving slower than you, hence the reason for returning to that lane, therefore you won't be interacting with another vehicle there.

However L3 to L2, or L4 to L2, I always indicate left, to make anyone in the left lane to that which you are moving to aware of your intention. You wouldn't want someone from L1 to pull out into L2 as you were entering it from L3, for example.

[WD39]

Thought processes?

By the time your thought has processed half a mile has passed.

Just do it.

I refer of course to indicating.

[johnao]

WD39 said:

Thought processes?

By the time your thought has processed half a mile has passed.

Just do it.

I refer of course to indicating.

May I therefore conclude that the signal is made before the thought process is completed?

[Vipers]

FFS, MSM, and be done with it, cut all the crap out.

[Len Woodman]

Here in NSW Australia the law demands you always signal for every [intended] change of lane or direction.

So MSM becomes:

Maneuver quickly so the other guy doesn't close the gap -
Signal because it's the law and we don't want to get booked -
Mirror to see what chaos has been caused; "Hey didn't you see my signal?"!

It's the downunder way!

[Dr Jekyll]

Vipers said:

FFS, MSM, and be done with it, cut all the crap out.

Working out whether other road users might be affected by your manoeuvre is hardly crap.

[Vipers]

Dr Jekyll said:

Vipers said:

FFS, MSM, and be done with it, cut all the crap out.

Working out whether other road users might be affected by your manoeuvre is hardly crap.

Doh......... didn't fink of that.........another zillion pages coming up.

I do believe I have a good grasp on safe driving techniques.

Just a reminder chaps.

Rule 267

Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right. You should

check your mirrors

take time to judge the speeds correctly

make sure that the lane you will be joining is sufficiently clear ahead and behind

take a quick sideways glance into the blind spot area to verify the position of a vehicle that may have disappeared from your view in the mirror

remember that traffic may be coming up behind you very quickly. Check all your mirrors carefully. Look out for motorcyclists. When it is safe to do so, signal in plenty of time, then move out'

ensure you do not cut in on the vehicle you have overtaken

be especially careful at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance.

Edited by Vipers on Saturday 31st October 15:23

[johnao]

Vipers said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Vipers said:

FFS, MSM, and be done with it, cut all the crap out.

Working out whether other road users might be affected by your manoeuvre is hardly crap.

Doh......... didn't fink of that.........another zillion pages coming up.

I do believe I have a good grasp on safe driving techniques.

Just a reminder chaps.

Rule 267

Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right. You should

check your mirrors

take time to judge the speeds correctly

make sure that the lane you will be joining is sufficiently clear ahead and behind

take a quick sideways glance into the blind spot area to verify the position of a vehicle that may have disappeared from your view in the mirror

remember that traffic may be coming up behind you very quickly. Check all your mirrors carefully. Look out for motorcyclists. When it is safe to do so, signal in plenty of time, then move out'

ensure you do not cut in on the vehicle you have overtaken

be especially careful at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance.

Edited by Vipers on Saturday 31st October 15:23

Hey, I thought you said... cut all the crap out?

Why have you then reproduced all that crap from Rule 267???

Is all that crap necessary, or can we cut it out as you suggest? I think we should be told.

[Vipers]

johnao said:

Vipers said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Vipers said:

FFS, MSM, and be done with it, cut all the crap out.

Working out whether other road users might be affected by your manoeuvre is hardly crap.

Doh......... didn't fink of that.........another zillion pages coming up.

I do believe I have a good grasp on safe driving techniques.

Just a reminder chaps.

Rule 267

Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right. You should

check your mirrors

take time to judge the speeds correctly

make sure that the lane you will be joining is sufficiently clear ahead and behind

take a quick sideways glance into the blind spot area to verify the position of a vehicle that may have disappeared from your view in the mirror

remember that traffic may be coming up behind you very quickly. Check all your mirrors carefully. Look out for motorcyclists. When it is safe to do so, signal in plenty of time, then move out'

ensure you do not cut in on the vehicle you have overtaken

be especially careful at night and in poor visibility when it is harder to judge speed and distance.

Edited by Vipers on Saturday 31st October 15:23

Hey, I thought you said... cut all the crap out?

Why have you then reproduced all that crap from Rule 267???

Is all that crap necessary, or can we cut it out as you suggest? I think we should be told.

All threads need crap, however herewith is my advance notice of intent to cut the crap out.............well for now anyway

[Bradyx10]

Some interesting opinions on here. Clear to see we all do things differently and with good reasons. Im surprised to hear that some people won't indicate at all...

Regardless of which of the lanes I'm in, I will always indicate at the start of an overtake. My reason being that the driver in front has spotted my approach behind them (hopefully), and if they're a nervous driver then they may be spending a bit too much time scoping me out in their rear view trying to suss when I'm going to pull out to overtake. So as a result of me indicating, the driver in front no longer has to second guess my actions and can concentrate fully ahead.

Indicating left after the overtake by no means indicates a lack of attention and a manner of robotic driving. I indicate left but you can be sure I'm concentrating and just as aware than the majority of drivers around me.

P.S If you are going to indicate left after the overtake...don't bother if you're already halfway through the manoeuvre.....that grinds my gears. All that tells me is that you haven't fallen asleep mid overtake and you're not slowly drifting into the hard shoulder barrier....

P.P.S Just watched episode 5 of the Grand Tour.........Jeremy and Richard didn't indicate once during their Mustang and Focus spat!

[RobM77]

Bradyx10 said:

I will always indicate at the start of an overtake.

before!!!!!

[Hugo a Gogo]

on the autobahn I sometimes indicate back in before I've fully passed a car if there's a faster mover approaching behind, to let them know that I will in fact be going into the proper lane(s) and they can come past

[RobM77]

Hugo a Gogo said:

on the autobahn I sometimes indicate back in before I've fully passed a car if there's a faster mover approaching behind, to let them know that I will in fact be going into the proper lane(s) and they can come past

It also tells the filtering biker that you haven't spotted hovering in your left hand rear quarter blind spot that you're coming back over.

[Hugo a Gogo]

if he's on my left, he's safe on the autobahn

(if you call filtering down the outside of an unrestricted autobahn safe!)

[RobM77]

Hugo a Gogo said:

if he's on my left, he's safe on the autobahn

(if you call filtering down the outside of an unrestricted autobahn safe!)

Ah, I meant on the right The hidden person undertaking you basically. Advanced drivers love to go on about how they only signal to people they can see, but they always seem to forget the people they can't see...