Indicating on motorways advice needed
Discussion
Dixy said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
R0G said:
I indicate only when it would be useful to another road user
That of course assumes you've identified every single user who finds it useful. Why not indicate every time? It costs nothing and can do no harm?Pontoneer said:
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
That of course assumes you've identified every single user who finds it useful. Why not indicate every time? It costs nothing and can do no harm?
2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:
But why not? And just maybe you've missed something. Even super drivers don't have 360 degree vision or sixth sense.
As I say, why not, it doesn't cost, take any effort, and can't be a negative?
Because people who simply indicate all the time tend not to think about them and to drive in a robotic , automatic manner . Those who take proper observation and CONSIDER the need for a signal during every implementation of the system will generally be much more attentive , won't carry out unnecessary actions , and also will be less likely to omit necessary ones , therefore safer . If you are driving correctly according to the system , there are multiple occasions on the approach to every hazard where you should be considering signals ( these can take the form of trafficator signals , hand signals , audible and visible warnings of approach ) .As I say, why not, it doesn't cost, take any effort, and can't be a negative?
By eliminating unnecessary actions , such as needless signals or gear changes , you achieve a smoother , more efficient drive , leave nothing to chance and become safer .
The Highway Code says always signal before changing lane?
7. Multi-lane carriageways (133 to 143)
Lane discipline
133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
7. Multi-lane carriageways (133 to 143)
Lane discipline
133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
Pontoneer said:
I almost never give signals on motorways , the logic is as follows :
Returning to the left : it is incorrect to signal for this after any overtake ; you are supposed to return left and this is what is expected , this applies to all roads , not just motorways and DC .
That's a very purist view. Perhaps if every other driver on the road was as advanced as you are, then there would be no need to signal left after an overtake. Meanwhile, back in the real world, there are often times when it can provide useful information to other road users.Returning to the left : it is incorrect to signal for this after any overtake ; you are supposed to return left and this is what is expected , this applies to all roads , not just motorways and DC .
I'd only ever signal left on a m'way
1) if I thought someone was going to try and come up my inside after I've been overtaking another vehicle and I'm trying to move back to the left.
2) I'm actually changing road where two motorways are about to diverge (moving left from L1 to L2/3 of adjoining m'way).
I'd never dream of signalling left after an A/B Road overtake and it's the same principle. I'm returning to the correct position therefore that's what should be expected. No one would overtake on a B road and continue driving on the wrong side for over half a mile.
The problem with indicators these days is that so often it isn't a signal to show intention. It's become a signal to say 'I'm already committed to fitting my large car in your braking zone and if you don't give me space we will collide'.
Unnecessary signals for other road users is a pet hate of mine. Like another thread said here recently, you get on with your own driving and let everyone else sort themselves out. You being 'helpful' by braking (or stopping for people to come out of side roads) can cause mayhem and frustration behind. Don't do it. Drive on and concentrate on what you are doing.
P.S. I would flash for an overtaking truck but that's so they know they can safely pull in and it's a well established convention that won't be misunderstood.
P.P.S. I don't drive slow enough to get overtaken by trucks.
1) if I thought someone was going to try and come up my inside after I've been overtaking another vehicle and I'm trying to move back to the left.
2) I'm actually changing road where two motorways are about to diverge (moving left from L1 to L2/3 of adjoining m'way).
I'd never dream of signalling left after an A/B Road overtake and it's the same principle. I'm returning to the correct position therefore that's what should be expected. No one would overtake on a B road and continue driving on the wrong side for over half a mile.
The problem with indicators these days is that so often it isn't a signal to show intention. It's become a signal to say 'I'm already committed to fitting my large car in your braking zone and if you don't give me space we will collide'.
Unnecessary signals for other road users is a pet hate of mine. Like another thread said here recently, you get on with your own driving and let everyone else sort themselves out. You being 'helpful' by braking (or stopping for people to come out of side roads) can cause mayhem and frustration behind. Don't do it. Drive on and concentrate on what you are doing.
P.S. I would flash for an overtaking truck but that's so they know they can safely pull in and it's a well established convention that won't be misunderstood.
P.P.S. I don't drive slow enough to get overtaken by trucks.
Ramona said:
That's a very purist view. Perhaps if every other driver on the road was as advanced as you are, then there would be no need to signal left after an overtake. Meanwhile, back in the real world, there are often times when it can provide useful information to other road users.
I would suggest that , in the real world , as long as you take care to continue in the overtaking lane until properly clear of the overtaken car , there is no need and no purpose in signalling left to return : you're supposed to return left and it will come as no surprise to others when you do so .charltjr said:
The Highway Code says always signal before changing lane?
7. Multi-lane carriageways (133 to 143)
Lane discipline
133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
Much of the advice in HC is aimed at novices , where a very simple , basic drill or routine is appropriate .7. Multi-lane carriageways (133 to 143)
Lane discipline
133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.
This is meant to be an advanced driving forum and , as advanced drivers , we should all have progressed beyond that stage . The System of Car Control looks for higher standards of observation , planning and execution where the advanced driver takes observation , formulates a plan depending on the circumstances and executes it .
If your observations tell you that there is no one close enough to be affected by your intended action , then no one will benefit from any signal and it is safe to go ahead ; the converse is also true : if someone is so close that you would have to signal and expect some accommodation from them so that you can change lane , then you shouldn't be changing lane - wait where you are until the circumstances are favourable - if you're running out of road then you weren't thinking and planning far enough ahead - on a busy road you might begin planning and getting into an appropriate lane a mile or even further before a junction , not during the last 100m as the Institute of Retarded Motorists do .
Of course , on motorways and the like , with proper planning you have plenty of time and distance to do the above ; you can still plan ahead on other roads , but there isn't always the luxury of clear space to do likewise , so signals are more likely to be used elsewhere - but this discussion was about signalling on motorways .
Pontoneer said:
it will come as no surprise to others when you do so .
Do you really believe that?One of the tenets of advanced driving (as I understand it), is that you should take the abilities of other road users into account. It is a dangerous thing to assume that all other road users will have the same understanding or expectation of what you are likely to do.
You also only mention the car which you have overtaken. Indicating left can give useful information to cars which are following you and which may want to get past you. This is often the case on the motorway system, and if you perform an overtake at 70mph in an outside lane, there may well be a vehicle close behind you by the end of your overtake manoeuvre who is looking to pass at >70mph. Indicating left provides useful information to those other road users.
I generally choose not to indicate left when returning to a lane after any overtake, on any road, as that is what I was taught on my advanced stuff.
There can always be special reasons where I will indicate.
Nothing about driving is written in stone, thus there will never be a correct answer to questions like this, just peoples preferences .
There can always be special reasons where I will indicate.
Nothing about driving is written in stone, thus there will never be a correct answer to questions like this, just peoples preferences .
I will have assessed the posture of the overtaken car before I commence the overtake and will ensure , as it is my own responsibility , that it is safe for me to return left before I do so - again , no left signal is required , it is actually wrong and you would be marked down on a Police driving assessment for it .
For someone behind : firstly , why should I compromise my own drive to accommodate someone else's lawbreaking ? Secondly , such people will be looking and waiting for you to move left , again , no surprise to them when you do so - incidentally , someone approaching fast from behind I would have seen before starting an overtake and would have let them past first .
For someone behind : firstly , why should I compromise my own drive to accommodate someone else's lawbreaking ? Secondly , such people will be looking and waiting for you to move left , again , no surprise to them when you do so - incidentally , someone approaching fast from behind I would have seen before starting an overtake and would have let them past first .
Pontoneer said:
I will have assessed the posture of the overtaken car before I commence the overtake and will ensure , as it is my own responsibility , that it is safe for me to return left before I do so - again , no left signal is required , it is actually wrong and you would be marked down on a Police driving assessment for it .
For someone behind : firstly , why should I compromise my own drive to accommodate someone else's lawbreaking ? Secondly , such people will be looking and waiting for you to move left , again , no surprise to them when you do so - incidentally , someone approaching fast from behind I would have seen before starting an overtake and would have let them past first .
No, it is not "wrong" and you would not necessarily be marked down for it. What would be wrong, and what you would be marked down for, is not making an assessment of whether a signal is required, and then providing one where it is required. One of the requirements for advanced driving is flexibility - you appear to think that there is a set of concrete laws that you always need to obey.For someone behind : firstly , why should I compromise my own drive to accommodate someone else's lawbreaking ? Secondly , such people will be looking and waiting for you to move left , again , no surprise to them when you do so - incidentally , someone approaching fast from behind I would have seen before starting an overtake and would have let them past first .
Do you really see the provision of a left signal as "compromising your drive"? What utter pompous nonsense. There are cases where that information would be of use to other drivers, and it behoves you as an advanced driver to provide that information.
Unless you are a serving police officer on duty, whether the car behind you is a law breaker or not should be of no concern to you. What you should be thinking is that by proving the information that you are about to return to an inside lane, you may lower the level of aggression in the car behind, possibly reducing the chances that he will tailgate or undertake you.
The fast car coming from behind may not have been a fast car when you started your overtaking manoeuvre - it might have just joined from a slip road, or the driver has just finished their phone call and is now going to make up for lost time, or whatever.
Traffic density is such on our motorways is such that it is by no means a given that a car will move left after an overtake, rather than stay out to overtake the next vehicle. The size of gap that one should move back into, rather than staying out is a matter of judgement, and will have very different answers amongst advanced drivers, let alone among the motoring public. It is very difficult for a following driver to predict, and by providing a left signal you assist that driver.
Nigel Worc's said:
Nothing about driving is written in stone, thus there will never be a correct answer to questions like this, just peoples preferences .
Hence I said 'almost never' in my original response on this subject . Just the same , I don't go around finding myself in conflict with other drivers , I make allowances for others , back off at times to make space for others , and make progress when safe to do so .
Ramona said:
No, it is not "wrong" and you would not necessarily be marked down for it. What would be wrong, and what you would be marked down for, is not making an assessment of whether a signal is required, and then providing one where it is required. One of the requirements for advanced driving is flexibility - you appear to think that there is a set of concrete laws that you always need to obey.
Do you really see the provision of a left signal as "compromising your drive"? What utter pompous nonsense. There are cases where that information would be of use to other drivers, and it behoves you as an advanced driver to provide that information.
Unless you are a serving police officer on duty, whether the car behind you is a law breaker or not should be of no concern to you. What you should be thinking is that by proving the information that you are about to return to an inside lane, you may lower the level of aggression in the car behind, possibly reducing the chances that he will tailgate or undertake you.
The fast car coming from behind may not have been a fast car when you started your overtaking manoeuvre - it might have just joined from a slip road, or the driver has just finished their phone call and is now going to make up for lost time, or whatever.
Traffic density is such on our motorways is such that it is by no means a given that a car will move left after an overtake, rather than stay out to overtake the next vehicle. The size of gap that one should move back into, rather than staying out is a matter of judgement, and will have very different answers amongst advanced drivers, let alone among the motoring public. It is very difficult for a following driver to predict, and by providing a left signal you assist that driver.
I still consider it 'wrong' that was the training when I did my advanced tuition ( to instructor level at police college ) and , while it would always be considered as part of the system , I would be extremely hard pressed to find myself in a situation where I would traffic ate left following an overtake : it is an unnecessary action and therefore wrong .Do you really see the provision of a left signal as "compromising your drive"? What utter pompous nonsense. There are cases where that information would be of use to other drivers, and it behoves you as an advanced driver to provide that information.
Unless you are a serving police officer on duty, whether the car behind you is a law breaker or not should be of no concern to you. What you should be thinking is that by proving the information that you are about to return to an inside lane, you may lower the level of aggression in the car behind, possibly reducing the chances that he will tailgate or undertake you.
The fast car coming from behind may not have been a fast car when you started your overtaking manoeuvre - it might have just joined from a slip road, or the driver has just finished their phone call and is now going to make up for lost time, or whatever.
Traffic density is such on our motorways is such that it is by no means a given that a car will move left after an overtake, rather than stay out to overtake the next vehicle. The size of gap that one should move back into, rather than staying out is a matter of judgement, and will have very different answers amongst advanced drivers, let alone among the motoring public. It is very difficult for a following driver to predict, and by providing a left signal you assist that driver.
Just about the only time may be , say in queuing traffic , with both lanes occupied , there might be a need to make way for an emergency vehicle , but that is not a normal situation .
I am not a police officer ( I work for the Fire Service ) but do remember that police officers are never off duty and can deal with lawbreaking at any time , as can private citizens if the situation warrants it .
I really don't care about other peoples' lawbreaking and will just let them get on with it : as long as they don't endanger me or anybody else ; what I won't do is to go out of my way to help them do whatever it is ( and why should I ? ) - I will continue my drive as planned and if they have steam coming out of their ears , they're going to have a heart attack , not me .
If someone is following me through an overtake of multiple vehicles , and I think they might want to pass , then I will move into a convenient gap if one is available , although I would only do this if it doesn't mean significant loss of progress - unless they have blue lights showing , their journey is unlikely to be any more important than mine ; having said that , I don't go about needlessly impeding people . All I need to do is check that it is safe and move over ; he will see me moving over if I choose to do so and a little flashing light isn't going to make any difference since he can't do anything until I have moved out of the way ; I don't particularly want him accelerating up to my bumper before I've finished moving over , so it benefits me not to give him any advance notice . If moving over into a lane of slower traffic would significantly impede my progress then he can jolly well wait until I've passed the slow traffic .
If someone joins behind from a slip road , they have to adapt to the traffic already on the road and again can wait until I've finished my overtake .
With all of the above , a left signal won't benefit them but moving over in a safe and timely manner will .
As for driving and using phones , hands free or not , that's a whole other subject and better discussed elsewhere .
JM said:
3yardy3 said:
Its great that someone is asking questions but... I still don't understand how you can pass your full driving test having never driven on a UK motorway!!!
Plenty of the population don't stay within 100 miles of a motorway. For someone in Shetland for example it would involve an overnight ferry journey and over an hours drive after they would to get to a motorway. Pontoneer said:
Nigel Worc's said:
Nothing about driving is written in stone, thus there will never be a correct answer to questions like this, just peoples preferences .
Hence I said 'almost never' in my original response on this subject . Just the same , I don't go around finding myself in conflict with other drivers , I make allowances for others , back off at times to make space for others , and make progress when safe to do so .
This is something I don't quite understand. The highway code is supposed to be the rules and guidelines for all drivers on UK roads, yet here we have advanced drivers criticising other drivers for over use of indicators by indicating left to move left on a motorway when all they are doing is adhering to the code.
I can understand drivers of emergency vehicles who are required to drive outside of the highway code following a different set of rules, but they have very specific requirements.
What makes indicating to change lane even when moving left on a multi-lane road a bad thing to do? Is it felt to add extra cognitive load? Why are other drivers trained to do it if it's a bad thing?
On a wider question, who decides which part of the highway code can be disregarded and which should be adhered to?
This isn't a jibe by the way, I genuinely don't understand the reasoning and would be interested in finding out.
I can understand drivers of emergency vehicles who are required to drive outside of the highway code following a different set of rules, but they have very specific requirements.
What makes indicating to change lane even when moving left on a multi-lane road a bad thing to do? Is it felt to add extra cognitive load? Why are other drivers trained to do it if it's a bad thing?
On a wider question, who decides which part of the highway code can be disregarded and which should be adhered to?
This isn't a jibe by the way, I genuinely don't understand the reasoning and would be interested in finding out.
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