Indicating on motorways advice needed

[akirk]

back to the original question (without totally ignoring the interesting discussion)

for me it is mainly about positioning
I see driving as dialogue between myself and everyone else - where there is a potential conflict I make sure that the dialogue is more active, where there isn't so much issue, I indicate my intentions and let others decide whether to take not or not...

- car positioning - this is the big one for me, there is far too much bad driving on motorways where drivers flip on their indicator and assume that entitles them to move out, regardless of what else might be there - positioning your car is a much stronger signal, so moving out earlier so that you move out at a time which doesn't affect the driver catching up / holding position in a lane to hold priority / the angle and time over which you move lanes can give early indication of moving with time to move back, but simply moving out earlier and moving back later can mean that no signalling is needed as you are no longer affecting anyone else

- reading the other cars better, this is down to the driver and not about communication, but make life much smoother - so as you drive along, anticipate where another car might be going, if they are catching up the truck in lane 1, and you will cause them an issue in lane 2 when they decide 10 cms from the truck to move out, and lane 3 is empty - anticipate and move out, so that when they finally look 1/2 a second before moving, you simply are not there / not an issue for them - no need to indicate, just don't be in the space they want if possible - by the time you are past, give some space and move back - they may not even notice that you are on the same road!

- varying speed - many drivers simply sit at one speed and then have to slam on the brakes when it is not compatible with other vehicles - more variance in the speed can really help maintain the flow, slow down slightly to allow someone out / accelerate to get past before there is an issue / moving out in front of approaching traffic, but match their speed while you pass the car in front - all of this can help not affect others

treat the motorway as a video game / SAS exercise - your job is to move along within the gaps left by the flow of traffic (this doesn't mean the boy-racer jinking around on full throttle and brake!) simply it means that like the SAS others shouldn't be aware of your existence - if you get your positioning right, you will use the spaces and adjust your driving so that you smoothly progress along the motorway without affect others...

you need to consider that the only reason to use an indicator on the motorway is because you will be affecting someone else's progress, if you are having to indicate then you have possibly got it wrong, you haven't anticipated, you haven't positioned your vehicle correctly, you shouldn't be having to make a move which affects others and makes them alter their position - other drivers shouldn't be aware of you / your journey... if you need to move out and someone is catching up, an indicator would only be needed where they have to slow down as a result, therefore you have possibly left it too late - I appreciate that on a very busy motorway it becomes a different story, it is then a part of the communication between drivers, and a request to someone else to adapt to allow you to move - but on a free flowing motorway you should rarely need it...

as for doing it 'in case' - not relevant and lazy driving
as for motorcyclist undertaking - that is illegal and highly suicidal! you have no obligation to indicate for that purpose - if they are being that stupid, then your only choice is not to move, if you have to indicate then they are too close to you for your move, they can't jink out of the way at speed, so you have no choice but to wait for them to finish undertaking, and then move - at which point, no indicator is required - however Darwinian theory says they won't be around too long!

[WD39]

akirk said:

back to the original question (without totally ignoring the interesting discussion)

for me it is mainly about positioning
I see driving as dialogue between myself and everyone else - where there is a potential conflict I make sure that the dialogue is more active, where there isn't so much issue, I indicate my intentions and let others decide whether to take not or not...

- car positioning - this is the big one for me, there is far too much bad driving on motorways where drivers flip on their indicator and assume that entitles them to move out, regardless of what else might be there - positioning your car is a much stronger signal, so moving out earlier so that you move out at a time which doesn't affect the driver catching up / holding position in a lane to hold priority / the angle and time over which you move lanes can give early indication of moving with time to move back, but simply moving out earlier and moving back later can mean that no signalling is needed as you are no longer affecting anyone else

- reading the other cars better, this is down to the driver and not about communication, but make life much smoother - so as you drive along, anticipate where another car might be going, if they are catching up the truck in lane 1, and you will cause them an issue in lane 2 when they decide 10 cms from the truck to move out, and lane 3 is empty - anticipate and move out, so that when they finally look 1/2 a second before moving, you simply are not there / not an issue for them - no need to indicate, just don't be in the space they want if possible - by the time you are past, give some space and move back - they may not even notice that you are on the same road!

- varying speed - many drivers simply sit at one speed and then have to slam on the brakes when it is not compatible with other vehicles - more variance in the speed can really help maintain the flow, slow down slightly to allow someone out / accelerate to get past before there is an issue / moving out in front of approaching traffic, but match their speed while you pass the car in front - all of this can help not affect others

treat the motorway as a video game / SAS exercise - your job is to move along within the gaps left by the flow of traffic (this doesn't mean the boy-racer jinking around on full throttle and brake!) simply it means that like the SAS others shouldn't be aware of your existence - if you get your positioning right, you will use the spaces and adjust your driving so that you smoothly progress along the motorway without affect others...

you need to consider that the only reason to use an indicator on the motorway is because you will be affecting someone else's progress, if you are having to indicate then you have possibly got it wrong, you haven't anticipated, you haven't positioned your vehicle correctly, you shouldn't be having to make a move which affects others and makes them alter their position - other drivers shouldn't be aware of you / your journey... if you need to move out and someone is catching up, an indicator would only be needed where they have to slow down as a result, therefore you have possibly left it too late - I appreciate that on a very busy motorway it becomes a different story, it is then a part of the communication between drivers, and a request to someone else to adapt to allow you to move - but on a free flowing motorway you should rarely need it...

as for doing it 'in case' - not relevant and lazy driving
as for motorcyclist undertaking - that is illegal and highly suicidal! you have no obligation to indicate for that purpose - if they are being that stupid, then your only choice is not to move, if you have to indicate then they are too close to you for your move, they can't jink out of the way at speed, so you have no choice but to wait for them to finish undertaking, and then move - at which point, no indicator is required - however Darwinian theory says they won't be around too long!

Far too complicated and intricate.

Let us be serious on something so simple.

When on a motorway and you need to change lanes to overtake, allow another motorist to join in lane one or take an exit:

Check mirrors...is it safe to move...yes, indicate. No, stay in your lane until it is ok to move.
Conduct manoevre...indicate to return to your chosen lane, or cancel indicator after you exit.
Of course the use of mirrors is vital during the above.

Edited by WD39 on Monday 28th September 19:08

[akirk]

WD39 said:

akirk said:

back to the original question (without totally ignoring the interesting discussion)

for me it is mainly about positioning
I see driving as dialogue between myself and everyone else - where there is a potential conflict I make sure that the dialogue is more active, where there isn't so much issue, I indicate my intentions and let others decide whether to take not or not...

- car positioning - this is the big one for me, there is far too much bad driving on motorways where drivers flip on their indicator and assume that entitles them to move out, regardless of what else might be there - positioning your car is a much stronger signal, so moving out earlier so that you move out at a time which doesn't affect the driver catching up / holding position in a lane to hold priority / the angle and time over which you move lanes can give early indication of moving with time to move back, but simply moving out earlier and moving back later can mean that no signalling is needed as you are no longer affecting anyone else

- reading the other cars better, this is down to the driver and not about communication, but make life much smoother - so as you drive along, anticipate where another car might be going, if they are catching up the truck in lane 1, and you will cause them an issue in lane 2 when they decide 10 cms from the truck to move out, and lane 3 is empty - anticipate and move out, so that when they finally look 1/2 a second before moving, you simply are not there / not an issue for them - no need to indicate, just don't be in the space they want if possible - by the time you are past, give some space and move back - they may not even notice that you are on the same road!

- varying speed - many drivers simply sit at one speed and then have to slam on the brakes when it is not compatible with other vehicles - more variance in the speed can really help maintain the flow, slow down slightly to allow someone out / accelerate to get past before there is an issue / moving out in front of approaching traffic, but match their speed while you pass the car in front - all of this can help not affect others

treat the motorway as a video game / SAS exercise - your job is to move along within the gaps left by the flow of traffic (this doesn't mean the boy-racer jinking around on full throttle and brake!) simply it means that like the SAS others shouldn't be aware of your existence - if you get your positioning right, you will use the spaces and adjust your driving so that you smoothly progress along the motorway without affect others...

you need to consider that the only reason to use an indicator on the motorway is because you will be affecting someone else's progress, if you are having to indicate then you have possibly got it wrong, you haven't anticipated, you haven't positioned your vehicle correctly, you shouldn't be having to make a move which affects others and makes them alter their position - other drivers shouldn't be aware of you / your journey... if you need to move out and someone is catching up, an indicator would only be needed where they have to slow down as a result, therefore you have possibly left it too late - I appreciate that on a very busy motorway it becomes a different story, it is then a part of the communication between drivers, and a request to someone else to adapt to allow you to move - but on a free flowing motorway you should rarely need it...

as for doing it 'in case' - not relevant and lazy driving
as for motorcyclist undertaking - that is illegal and highly suicidal! you have no obligation to indicate for that purpose - if they are being that stupid, then your only choice is not to move, if you have to indicate then they are too close to you for your move, they can't jink out of the way at speed, so you have no choice but to wait for them to finish undertaking, and then move - at which point, no indicator is required - however Darwinian theory says they won't be around too long!

Far too complicated and intricate.

Let us be serious on something so simple.

When on a motorway and you need to change lanes to overtake, allow another motorist to join in lane one or take an exit:

Check mirrors...is it safe to move...yes, indicate. No, stay in your lane until it is ok to move.
Conduct manoevre...indicate to return to your chosen lane, or cancel indicator after you exit.
Of course the use of mirrors is vital during the above.

Edited by WD39 on Monday 28th September 19:08

Sorry - no, that is to misunderstand how you should drive on a motorway if on a motorway you HAVE to tell someone that you are moving out in front of them, then you have left it too late (in normal flowing traffic - different in slower, more congested traffic where it is a dialogue) - sadly this is the lazy way in which many people drive - wait until they have no choice but hit the car in front or move out, an indicator is then assumed to give them right of passage...

when someone is approaching faster than you from behind, what message do you expect the use of the indicator to convey?
- if you are telling them so that they can adjust / slow down / etc. - you have left it too late, you should not be moving out
- if they don't need to adjust their speed / alter direction, why do they need to know - move out, around the obstacle and back before they get there - your car positioning will tell them all they need to know and at no point are you worrying them that you are an additional obstacle - you are irrelevant to them...

[waremark]

WD39 said:

Far too complicated and intricate.

Let us be serious on something so simple.

When on a motorway and you need to change lanes to overtake, allow another motorist to join in lane one or take an exit:

Check mirrors...is it safe to move...yes, indicate. No, stay in your lane until it is ok to move.
Conduct manoevre...indicate to return to your chosen lane, or cancel indicator after you exit.
Of course the use of mirrors is vital during the above.

Edited by WD39 on Monday 28th September 19:08

I see it the same way as A Kirk, but I will put it in different words:

Check mirrors...will I affect anyone else if I move...no, so no need to indicate. Yes, stay in lane until I won't affect anyone else.

Actually, it is not often that simple. It is more often, I want to move, I will adjust speed or wait until I won't affect anyone else. Then, no need to indicate, move.

By the way, I generally cancel my indicator if used at all as I cross a lane marking. The indicator has done its job, which was to give advanced warning of a change, and leaving it running could possibly confuse.

[Vipers]

waremark said:

I see it the same way as A Kirk, but I will put it in different words:

Check mirrors...will I affect anyone else if I move...no, so no need to indicate. Yes, stay in lane until I won't affect anyone else.

Actually, it is not often that simple. It is more often, I want to move, I will adjust speed or wait until I won't affect anyone else. Then, no need to indicate, move.

By the way, I generally cancel my indicator if used at all as I cross a lane marking. The indicator has done its job, which was to give advanced warning of a change, and leaving it running could possibly confuse.

Then again you may have to change lanes for example in slow traffic, L1 not moving for example, there are no gaps in L2 so yes indicate to convey your intentions when a gap appears, so it will affect someone as you put it. hope Imread your post correctly.

Good you mention cancelling indicators, I see so many indicate move over (mainly on dual carriageways), cruise down L2 with the indicator still on.

Apart from that what's difficult in indicating, some posts on here are far too technical and detailed, apply the KISS principle.

Can't really be clearer than MSM. Can it? Just wish more slip road drivers recognised they had no right of way. Like most I will try to let them in, but sometimes you can't without hindering others behind you, and I don't like doing that.

[WD39]

waremark said:

WD39 said:

Far too complicated and intricate.

Let us be serious on something so simple.

When on a motorway and you need to change lanes to overtake, allow another motorist to join in lane one or take an exit:

Check mirrors...is it safe to move...yes, indicate. No, stay in your lane until it is ok to move.
Conduct manoevre...indicate to return to your chosen lane, or cancel indicator after you exit.
Of course the use of mirrors is vital during the above.

Edited by WD39 on Monday 28th September 19:08

I see it the same way as A Kirk, but I will put it in different words:

Check mirrors...will I affect anyone else if I move...no, so no need to indicate. Yes, stay in lane until I won't affect anyone else.

Actually, it is not often that simple. It is more often, I want to move, I will adjust speed or wait until I won't affect anyone else. Then, no need to indicate, move.

By the way, I generally cancel my indicator if used at all as I cross a lane marking. The indicator has done its job, which was to give advanced warning of a change, and leaving it running could possibly confuse.

Thanks all. will conclude with...'I will continue to indicate at all times, regardless of traffic flow or time of day. On motorways, as previously stated.'
After 45 years it has served me well.

[akirk]

WD39 said:

Thanks all. will conclude with...'I will continue to indicate at all times, regardless of traffic flow or time of day. On motorways, as previously stated.'
After 45 years it has served me well.

No issue with that the problems lie with those who indicate instead of all the other bits (observation / position / accurate decision making / etc.)
On a motorway, it would be rare for indicating (on an otherwise correct manoeuvre) to cause confusion - it can on other roads...

[ZedLeppelin]

Question: do I need to overtake or move into another lane? If I do, mirrors, assess conditions for intended move. Plan.
Question: does anyone need to know? If they do, when it's safe, indicate until message received and intent communicated before moving out. If they don't/ nobody to 'talk to', no indication and move out.

Overthinking minor behaviour will often lead to analysis-paralysis and hesitation. Or worse, rushing the process and pulling out anyway. The current general standard of uk Mway driving is appalling.

[Vipers]

ZedLeppelin said:

Question: do I need to overtake or move into another lane? If I do, mirrors, assess conditions for intended move. Plan.
Question: does anyone need to know? If they do, when it's safe, indicate until message received and intent communicated before moving out. If they don't/ nobody to 'talk to', no indication and move out.

Overthinking minor behaviour will often lead to analysis-paralysis and hesitation. Or worse, rushing the process and pulling out anyway. The current general standard of uk Mway driving is appalling.

Have you seen a doctor about that . Meanwhile I'll just stick to MSM.

[ZedLeppelin]

Vipers said:

Have you seen a doctor about that . Meanwhile I'll just stick to MSM.

He'll you're right!! All I need to do is look in the general direction of a mirror, put my blinkers on and pull out. Others can deal with the fallout. They have brakes... "I was indicating when they hit me and so they must have been too close", works a treat.

My psychiatrist (the replacement for the one that sort of mysteriously went missing) said that if I was allowed to drive the way I think, everyone alive would choose to be pedestrians. I'm still digesting them.... that. My astrologer (the replacement for the previous and still awol one) said that my previous life was spent hammering nails into wood with my bare head as part of a circus act and this is the reason why I can stare at people until they either faint or run away. Cats think I'm weird.

Fancy going for a drive? I know some very remote places quite well.

.....She's in the garden you know. Do you like gardens?

[ZedLeppelin]

No but really, five pages about how to indicate on a motorway?! This could turn into another BGOL sized thread.

[Vipers]

ZedLeppelin said:

He'll you're right!! All I need to do is look in the general direction of a mirror, put my blinkers on and pull out. Others can deal with the fallout. They have brakes... "I was indicating when they hit me and so they must have been too close", works a treat.

Not quite sure MSM is supposed to work like that, but I am sure you will get the hang of it.

[waremark]

Vipers said:

ZedLeppelin said:

He'll you're right!! All I need to do is look in the general direction of a mirror, put my blinkers on and pull out. Others can deal with the fallout. They have brakes... "I was indicating when they hit me and so they must have been too close", works a treat.

Not quite sure MSM is supposed to work like that, but I am sure you will get the hang of it.

Which of course is the point he has made rather nicely. MSM is over simplistic and begs the vital question of how you respond to what you see in a series of looks in the mirror, before you move on to SM.

[RWD cossie wil]

Pontoneer said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

That of course assumes you've identified every single user who finds it useful. Why not indicate every time? It costs nothing and can do no harm?

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

But why not? And just maybe you've missed something. Even super drivers don't have 360 degree vision or sixth sense.

As I say, why not, it doesn't cost, take any effort, and can't be a negative?

Because people who simply indicate all the time tend not to think about them and to drive in a robotic , automatic manner . Those who take proper observation and CONSIDER the need for a signal during every implementation of the system will generally be much more attentive , won't carry out unnecessary actions , and also will be less likely to omit necessary ones , therefore safer . If you are driving correctly according to the system , there are multiple occasions on the approach to every hazard where you should be considering signals ( these can take the form of trafficator signals , hand signals , audible and visible warnings of approach ) .

By eliminating unnecessary actions , such as needless signals or gear changes , you achieve a smoother , more efficient drive , leave nothing to chance and become safer .

Sorry I totally disagree.

Indicating both out & in is critical on motorways, even in very light traffic. So many people just pull out into the lane they want without looking it is untrue. I have seen numerous times where a car from lane 3 drifts back into lane 2, only to be met halfway by the car pulling out into lane 2 From lane 1, again who isn't indicating or particually paying attention.

Signalling your intent to move lanes helps people, even if you think it does not. It helps drivers 5/6/7 cars or a good distance back as it allows them to plan ahead better.

Infact, I would go so far to say that except driving too close to the car Infront (which about 95% of road users do now for some reason) , lack of indication is probably the biggest cause of accidents, either by direct collision or people swerveing & then spinning or crashing due to the over reaction.

A non indicating lane changer is one of my personal red flags for a bad driver, so I make sure I give them extra room to do somthing stupid!

[waremark]

RWD cossie wil said:

Indicating both out & in is critical on motorways, even in very light traffic. So many people just pull out into the lane they want without looking it is untrue. I have seen numerous times where a car from lane 3 drifts back into lane 2, only to be met halfway by the car pulling out into lane 2 From lane 1, again who isn't indicating or particually paying attention.

.........

A non indicating lane changer is one of my personal red flags for a bad driver, so I make sure I give them extra room to do somthing stupid!

Sorry I totally disagree.

Your first para perfectly describes the behaviours which I abominate. The sort of inconsiderate lane changing which you describe is often accompanied by indicating - and at the last minute when too late for a reaction at that. Some of us advocate not indicating if it will not be useful. I believe that one of the main advantages of this approach is that it encourages drivers to check very carefully whether they will affect anyone else before changing lanes.

Most often people indicate when they intend to push in or when they are already changing lanes.

I am delighted that you will be giving me extra room when I change lanes without indicating. However, since I will only be changing lanes without indicating when we both have plenty of room this will not affect either of us.

[RWD cossie wil]

waremark said:

RWD cossie wil said:

Indicating both out & in is critical on motorways, even in very light traffic. So many people just pull out into the lane they want without looking it is untrue. I have seen numerous times where a car from lane 3 drifts back into lane 2, only to be met halfway by the car pulling out into lane 2 From lane 1, again who isn't indicating or particually paying attention.

.........

A non indicating lane changer is one of my personal red flags for a bad driver, so I make sure I give them extra room to do somthing stupid!

Sorry I totally disagree.

Your first para perfectly describes the behaviours which I abominate. The sort of inconsiderate lane changing which you describe is often accompanied by indicating - and at the last minute when too late for a reaction at that. Some of us advocate not indicating if it will not be useful. I believe that one of the main advantages of this approach is that it encourages drivers to check very carefully whether they will affect anyone else before changing lanes.

Most often people indicate when they intend to push in or when they are already changing lanes.

I am delighted that you will be giving me extra room when I change lanes without indicating. However, since I will only be changing lanes without indicating when we both have plenty of room this will not affect either of us.

So basically what we are saying is, most people just don't bother looking regardless of if they indicate ir not?

[RWD cossie wil]

waremark said:

RWD cossie wil said:

Indicating both out & in is critical on motorways, even in very light traffic. So many people just pull out into the lane they want without looking it is untrue. I have seen numerous times where a car from lane 3 drifts back into lane 2, only to be met halfway by the car pulling out into lane 2 From lane 1, again who isn't indicating or particually paying attention.

.........

A non indicating lane changer is one of my personal red flags for a bad driver, so I make sure I give them extra room to do somthing stupid!

Sorry I totally disagree.

Your first para perfectly describes the behaviours which I abominate. The sort of inconsiderate lane changing which you describe is often accompanied by indicating - and at the last minute when too late for a reaction at that. Some of us advocate not indicating if it will not be useful. I believe that one of the main advantages of this approach is that it encourages drivers to check very carefully whether they will affect anyone else before changing lanes.

Most often people indicate when they intend to push in or when they are already changing lanes.

I am delighted that you will be giving me extra room when I change lanes without indicating. However, since I will only be changing lanes without indicating when we both have plenty of room this will not affect either of us.

So basically what we are saying is, most people just don't bother looking regardless of if they indicate ir not?

[Vipers]

waremark said:

Vipers said:

ZedLeppelin said:

He'll you're right!! All I need to do is look in the general direction of a mirror, put my blinkers on and pull out. Others can deal with the fallout. They have brakes... "I was indicating when they hit me and so they must have been too close", works a treat.

Not quite sure MSM is supposed to work like that, but I am sure you will get the hang of it.

Which of course is the point he has made rather nicely. MSM is over simplistic and begs the vital question of how you respond to what you see in a series of looks in the mirror, before you move on to SM.

Getting very technical again. Look in the mirror, make sure all is clear and you wont hinder anyone by causing them to slow down, signal, and move. Is someone is zapping up the lane you want to move over to, then I dont indicate, if however I have to move over, say to pass a slower vehicle, and there looks like a long line of traffic in the other lane, I will indicate my intention, and wait until either someone slows or a gap comes up.

I will never move over unless it is safe to do so, as long as we know (as we do) indicator is only indicating your intention, not get the feck out of my way.

Cant get much simpler than that. Just wish more new cars has bloody indicators fitted.

Edited by Vipers on Saturday 10th October 19:02

[powerstroke]

Vipers said:

waremark said:

Vipers said:

ZedLeppelin said:

He'll you're right!! All I need to do is look in the general direction of a mirror, put my blinkers on and pull out. Others can deal with the fallout. They have brakes... "I was indicating when they hit me and so they must have been too close", works a treat.

Not quite sure MSM is supposed to work like that, but I am sure you will get the hang of it.

Which of course is the point he has made rather nicely. MSM is over simplistic and begs the vital question of how you respond to what you see in a series of looks in the mirror, before you move on to SM.

Getting very technical again. Look in the mirror, make sure all is clear and you wont hinder anyone by causing them to slow down, signal, and move. Is someone is zapping up the lane you want to move over to, then I dont indicate, if however I have to move over, say to pass a slower vehicle, and there looks like a long line of traffic in the other lane, I will indicate my intention, and wait until either someone slows or a gap comes up.

I will never move over unless it is safe to do so, as long as we know (as we do) indicator is only indicating your intention, not get the feck out of my way.

Cant get much simpler than that. Just wish more new cars has bloody indicators fitted.

Edited by Vipers on Saturday 10th October 19:02

If you are driving something german thats white or silver you only use indicators when entering or exiting your lane to cross the other two lanes to join or leave the motorway and then only in very heavy traffic, indicating at any other time is a sign of weakness!!! and remember its signal manoeuvre mirror in anything german with 4 cylinders or less that isn't borght and payed for i.e. on PCP or a company car...

[RobM77]

powerstroke said:

If you are driving something german thats white or silver you only use indicators when entering or exiting your lane to cross the other two lanes to join or leave the motorway and then only in very heavy traffic, indicating at any other time is a sign of weakness!!! and remember its signal manoeuvre mirror in anything german with 4 cylinders or less that isn't borght and payed for i.e. on PCP or a company car...

Virtually nobody indicates properly anymore, and I reckon on my commute around half of people don't touch their indicators at all. It's got nothing to do with the make of car that person happens to drive, nor the country that car was made in.