Indicating on motorways advice needed
Discussion
johnao said:
vonhosen said:
Having observed them & then questioned them about the system/beliefs/thought process they were following.
In what context are you observing and questioning them, please?And I haven't said I endorse automatic signalling.
My personal belief is you should always consider whether a signal might mislead others if given & the timing of it's application with that in mind too.
JM said:
Do people who indicate all the time and advocate it even if there is no other vehicles or people present, drive around with their windscreen wipers on all the time?
I indicate if in traffic or there is someone else around who may benefit etc. I also use headlights (dipped beam) when it may be of benefit to others, but not necessarily to me (daytime but rain/spray or bright sunshine etc) I'll use wipers to clear my windscreen if it's dirty, wet/covered in snow or similar, but I don't leave them on all the time just incase there may be rain round the next corner.
I don't indicate if there is nobody else around, as in the example I gave earlier, empty motorway (or any other road) nobody following or visible ahead and I'm leaving at the coming exit (or other turning or lay-by or similar)
I'd like to know why you would indicate in such a situation?
When I walk I get really pee'd off by those drivers who don't signal, because they think pedestrians are not road users. It mostly happens, at roundabouts as they turn left, at junctions when they turn off as I am about to cross, and perhaps the most likely, but equally bad, in supermarket car parks.I indicate if in traffic or there is someone else around who may benefit etc. I also use headlights (dipped beam) when it may be of benefit to others, but not necessarily to me (daytime but rain/spray or bright sunshine etc) I'll use wipers to clear my windscreen if it's dirty, wet/covered in snow or similar, but I don't leave them on all the time just incase there may be rain round the next corner.
I don't indicate if there is nobody else around, as in the example I gave earlier, empty motorway (or any other road) nobody following or visible ahead and I'm leaving at the coming exit (or other turning or lay-by or similar)
I'd like to know why you would indicate in such a situation?
Pica-Pica said:
JM said:
Do people who indicate all the time and advocate it even if there is no other vehicles or people present, drive around with their windscreen wipers on all the time?
I indicate if in traffic or there is someone else around who may benefit etc. I also use headlights (dipped beam) when it may be of benefit to others, but not necessarily to me (daytime but rain/spray or bright sunshine etc) I'll use wipers to clear my windscreen if it's dirty, wet/covered in snow or similar, but I don't leave them on all the time just incase there may be rain round the next corner.
I don't indicate if there is nobody else around, as in the example I gave earlier, empty motorway (or any other road) nobody following or visible ahead and I'm leaving at the coming exit (or other turning or lay-by or similar)
I'd like to know why you would indicate in such a situation?
When I walk I get really pee'd off by those drivers who don't signal, because they think pedestrians are not road users. It mostly happens, at roundabouts as they turn left, at junctions when they turn off as I am about to cross, and perhaps the most likely, but equally bad, in supermarket car parks.I indicate if in traffic or there is someone else around who may benefit etc. I also use headlights (dipped beam) when it may be of benefit to others, but not necessarily to me (daytime but rain/spray or bright sunshine etc) I'll use wipers to clear my windscreen if it's dirty, wet/covered in snow or similar, but I don't leave them on all the time just incase there may be rain round the next corner.
I don't indicate if there is nobody else around, as in the example I gave earlier, empty motorway (or any other road) nobody following or visible ahead and I'm leaving at the coming exit (or other turning or lay-by or similar)
I'd like to know why you would indicate in such a situation?
JM said:
Pica-Pica said:
JM said:
Do people who indicate all the time and advocate it even if there is no other vehicles or people present, drive around with their windscreen wipers on all the time?
I indicate if in traffic or there is someone else around who may benefit etc. I also use headlights (dipped beam) when it may be of benefit to others, but not necessarily to me (daytime but rain/spray or bright sunshine etc) I'll use wipers to clear my windscreen if it's dirty, wet/covered in snow or similar, but I don't leave them on all the time just incase there may be rain round the next corner.
I don't indicate if there is nobody else around, as in the example I gave earlier, empty motorway (or any other road) nobody following or visible ahead and I'm leaving at the coming exit (or other turning or lay-by or similar)
I'd like to know why you would indicate in such a situation?
When I walk I get really pee'd off by those drivers who don't signal, because they think pedestrians are not road users. It mostly happens, at roundabouts as they turn left, at junctions when they turn off as I am about to cross, and perhaps the most likely, but equally bad, in supermarket car parks.I indicate if in traffic or there is someone else around who may benefit etc. I also use headlights (dipped beam) when it may be of benefit to others, but not necessarily to me (daytime but rain/spray or bright sunshine etc) I'll use wipers to clear my windscreen if it's dirty, wet/covered in snow or similar, but I don't leave them on all the time just incase there may be rain round the next corner.
I don't indicate if there is nobody else around, as in the example I gave earlier, empty motorway (or any other road) nobody following or visible ahead and I'm leaving at the coming exit (or other turning or lay-by or similar)
I'd like to know why you would indicate in such a situation?
1) No driver is perfect and no driver has perfect observation. If you think you're perfect, then sorry, you're not. This is why we all need to cover ourselves. Indicating 'only when others will benefit' invariably leads to mistakes now and then, and it is these mistakes that annoy. It's worth mentioning that pedestrians usually aren't illuminated, so they can often be missed, particularly if there are no streetlights.
2) Your advice above is often taken up by people who don't understand who's going to benefit and how.
Note that other road users cover themselves as well by not making a decision based on an indicator (or lack of) that could lead to an accident. Instead, failing to indicate usually leads to annoyance.
I indicate if I think it could be helpful to any other driver. That means that, more often than not, I indicate, but if I am pulling in after an overtake and there is no vehicle in any lane that could possibly make a manoeuver (even an irrational one) that would take it into the space I am moving into, then I don't bother.
Zod said:
I indicate if I think it could be helpful to any other driver. That means that, more often than not, I indicate, but if I am pulling in after an overtake and there is no vehicle in any lane that could possibly make a manoeuver (even an irrational one) that would take it into the space I am moving into, then I don't bother.
I should add to the above that every situation is different - each situation will have a different level of certainty that your observation is perfect.The other thing we should of course consider is the chances of another car suddenly appearing, because unless you drive with one finger on the indicator stalk constantly, such a car may like to know your intentions before you have time to process what's going on, move your hand and then indicate. I have an example of this near where I live - a turning into the road I live on is on a blind bend and other cars can appear very suddenly around this bend, so even if the road looks empty, things can change very quickly. If you've indicated already, it's one less thing to worry about, which is particularly salient if there's a blind bend and a junction on it approaching!
RobM77 said:
Zod said:
I indicate if I think it could be helpful to any other driver. That means that, more often than not, I indicate, but if I am pulling in after an overtake and there is no vehicle in any lane that could possibly make a manoeuver (even an irrational one) that would take it into the space I am moving into, then I don't bother.
I should add to the above that every situation is different - each situation will have a different level of certainty that your observation is perfect.The other thing we should of course consider is the chances of another car suddenly appearing, because unless you drive with one finger on the indicator stalk constantly, such a car may like to know your intentions before you have time to process what's going on, move your hand and then indicate. I have an example of this near where I live - a turning into the road I live on is on a blind bend and other cars can appear very suddenly around this bend, so even if the road looks empty, things can change very quickly. If you've indicated already, it's one less thing to worry about, which is particularly salient if there's a blind bend and a junction on it approaching!
Which is why, despite generally using the handbrake when stopped at a junction, if I stop at a junction just around a bend or any other junction where I worry about being visible to cars approaching from behind, I keep the footbrake applied.I agree with this completely. It's a bit marginal, but look at the 'failure modes'.
If you only indicate when you know there is someone to benefit, then the failure mode is to make a mistake and not indicate when there is someone to benefit.
That's what is traded off against the observational benefit of checking who will gain information from your signal.
In my IAM experience, I ended up in a long debate about two signals I gave where I decided there were people to benefit from the signal in both cases. The observer agreed that there were people to signal to, but that they wouldn't benefit, so my signals were wrong. I lost the will at that point!
BErt
If you only indicate when you know there is someone to benefit, then the failure mode is to make a mistake and not indicate when there is someone to benefit.
That's what is traded off against the observational benefit of checking who will gain information from your signal.
In my IAM experience, I ended up in a long debate about two signals I gave where I decided there were people to benefit from the signal in both cases. The observer agreed that there were people to signal to, but that they wouldn't benefit, so my signals were wrong. I lost the will at that point!
BErt
RobM77 said:
The other thing we should of course consider is the chances of another car suddenly appearing, because unless you drive with one finger on the indicator stalk constantly, such a car may like to know your intentions before you have time to process what's going on, move your hand and then indicate.
You also need to be mindful of the signal itself being misleading if there are others who may interpret it differently. You are on a busy road with a turning just before your house. If you indicate to turn off at the correct point you would if the turning was not there, and the turning was between that point and your actual drive, you would cause confusion to anyone waiting to turn out. There are plenty of instances where the signal could be construed in multiple ways.
I only signal to exit a roundabout in L2 if I was happy there was a car approaching which would benefit and there wasn't a car on my inside who may be spooked by it thinking I was going to exit into L1.
I only signal to exit a roundabout in L2 if I was happy there was a car approaching which would benefit and there wasn't a car on my inside who may be spooked by it thinking I was going to exit into L1.
BertBert said:
I agree with this completely. It's a bit marginal, but look at the 'failure modes'.
If you only indicate when you know there is someone to benefit, then the failure mode is to make a mistake and not indicate when there is someone to benefit.
That's what is traded off against the observational benefit of checking who will gain information from your signal.
In my IAM experience, I ended up in a long debate about two signals I gave where I decided there were people to benefit from the signal in both cases. The observer agreed that there were people to signal to, but that they wouldn't benefit, so my signals were wrong. I lost the will at that point!
BErt
If you only indicate when you know there is someone to benefit, then the failure mode is to make a mistake and not indicate when there is someone to benefit.
That's what is traded off against the observational benefit of checking who will gain information from your signal.
In my IAM experience, I ended up in a long debate about two signals I gave where I decided there were people to benefit from the signal in both cases. The observer agreed that there were people to signal to, but that they wouldn't benefit, so my signals were wrong. I lost the will at that point!
BErt
RobM77 said:
The other thing we should of course consider is the chances of another car suddenly appearing, because unless you drive with one finger on the indicator stalk constantly, such a car may like to know your intentions before you have time to process what's going on, move your hand and then indicate.
We need to consider the consequences of doing it for no reason, which are usually nothing other than a micro joule of wasted energy! Personally I think a good driver should have ample opportunity to show that they indicate well by considering the timing of their indications and that's what advanced assessors and observers should focus on; the odd unnecessary indication 'just in case' is fine with me!Heres Johnny said:
You also need to be mindful of the signal itself being misleading if there are others who may interpret it differently. You are on a busy road with a turning just before your house. If you indicate to turn off at the correct point you would if the turning was not there, and the turning was between that point and your actual drive, you would cause confusion to anyone waiting to turn out. There are plenty of instances where the signal could be construed in multiple ways.
I only signal to exit a roundabout in L2 if I was happy there was a car approaching which would benefit and there wasn't a car on my inside who may be spooked by it thinking I was going to exit into L1.
Nice one, most drivers these have absolutely no idea about indicating on roundabouts, and those waiting to enter have to guess where the car is going, lost count of times I am waiting to join a roundabout, waiting at 6, a car enters fro. 3 not indicating so I assume they are heading for 9, and they exit at 6, they belong to the bunch of "Why do I need to indicate, I know where I am going".I only signal to exit a roundabout in L2 if I was happy there was a car approaching which would benefit and there wasn't a car on my inside who may be spooked by it thinking I was going to exit into L1.
Vipers said:
Heres Johnny said:
You also need to be mindful of the signal itself being misleading if there are others who may interpret it differently. You are on a busy road with a turning just before your house. If you indicate to turn off at the correct point you would if the turning was not there, and the turning was between that point and your actual drive, you would cause confusion to anyone waiting to turn out. There are plenty of instances where the signal could be construed in multiple ways.
I only signal to exit a roundabout in L2 if I was happy there was a car approaching which would benefit and there wasn't a car on my inside who may be spooked by it thinking I was going to exit into L1.
Nice one, most drivers these have absolutely no idea about indicating on roundabouts, and those waiting to enter have to guess where the car is going, lost count of times I am waiting to join a roundabout, waiting at 6, a car enters fro. 3 not indicating so I assume they are heading for 9, and they exit at 6, they belong to the bunch of "Why do I need to indicate, I know where I am going".I only signal to exit a roundabout in L2 if I was happy there was a car approaching which would benefit and there wasn't a car on my inside who may be spooked by it thinking I was going to exit into L1.
RobM77 said:
JM said:
[
Why have you quoted my post?
Because your attitude/advice can lead to drivers failing to indicate when it would benefit another road user. Why have you quoted my post?
I explained (further) my actions or lack of when appropriate and asked a couple of questions which remain unanswered.
JM said:
RobM77 said:
JM said:
[
Why have you quoted my post?
Because your attitude/advice can lead to drivers failing to indicate when it would benefit another road user. Why have you quoted my post?
I explained (further) my actions or lack of when appropriate and asked a couple of questions which remain unanswered.
I have held different views on this over the years.
It seems to me (now) that the absolute insistence on only indicating if someone will benefit from the signal is a somewhat extreme measure to try and improve the average driver's observation skills.
However, after discussing this with drivers of differing skill and experience levels I have concluded the following:
- This advice will not be understood or acknowledged by those who have poor/average observation skills and have no real desire to improve.
- Those who have some insight will understand the argument but assert that they are observant yet will indicate because no harm can come of it and it may avoid an incident.
- Those with more insight will understand but also recognise that signals can be ambiguous and/or confusing if given where not necessary for the purpose intended; however, indicating should not be used to cover for sub-optimal observation but it would be silly to indicate where there is plainly nobody who would benefit.
- Purists will say that any indication where there was nobody who could have benefited from the indication is a failure.
If you have an assessor who falls into the latter camp they may well be using the "retrospectroscope" (a commonly used instrument in medicine). My take on this now is that an approach based on considering the impact of giving the signal whilst maintaining some pragmatic sense about it (e.g. not indicating in the Californian desert on an unpaved road miles from anywhere while negotiating a large boulder, to make an extreme example)
Steve
It seems to me (now) that the absolute insistence on only indicating if someone will benefit from the signal is a somewhat extreme measure to try and improve the average driver's observation skills.
However, after discussing this with drivers of differing skill and experience levels I have concluded the following:
- This advice will not be understood or acknowledged by those who have poor/average observation skills and have no real desire to improve.
- Those who have some insight will understand the argument but assert that they are observant yet will indicate because no harm can come of it and it may avoid an incident.
- Those with more insight will understand but also recognise that signals can be ambiguous and/or confusing if given where not necessary for the purpose intended; however, indicating should not be used to cover for sub-optimal observation but it would be silly to indicate where there is plainly nobody who would benefit.
- Purists will say that any indication where there was nobody who could have benefited from the indication is a failure.
If you have an assessor who falls into the latter camp they may well be using the "retrospectroscope" (a commonly used instrument in medicine). My take on this now is that an approach based on considering the impact of giving the signal whilst maintaining some pragmatic sense about it (e.g. not indicating in the Californian desert on an unpaved road miles from anywhere while negotiating a large boulder, to make an extreme example)
Steve
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