Is changing down through the gears a bad habit
Discussion
HustleRussell said:
Gears for go, brakes for slow.
That's what I was always taught and it's something I've aways stuck with. If I'm coming down a motorway slip road knowing I'll be coming to a stop, I wouldn't go 6th, 4th, 3rd etc. until I came to a stop. Unnecessary wear on the clutch and most like a less than smooth ride unless you heel/toe it down the gears or get it exactly right. I can just recall being taught when leaning and through IAM to be in the correct gear. So you read the road ahead and see there'll be an opportunity to keep driving, you go into the relevant gear. Whether that's a drop from 6th to 2nd or whatever works.
A chap I used to be mates with was a constantly gear change, I recall him coming to a stop from 65ish and it just being cringeworthy. Every gear change down saw the revs shoot up and the car jolt when he could have simply braked, gone into the correct gear and carried on or stopped.
HustleRussell said:
NDNDNDND said:
Learn to heel n' toe.
It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
Personally wouldn't use or encourage heel & toe in this scenario (where you can pretty much coast down to the appropriate speed with little/no braking). H&T here just puts unnecessary fuel and revs into the unloaded engine for no benefit and no matter how good you are at H&T (which is supremely difficult or impossible in modern over-assisted braking systems) you aren't going to be able to be as smooth as coasting down and shifting once into the correct gear to move off. I'd probably make one rev-matched downshift. It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
I go down the gearbox with H&T only when I'm using a decent amount of brakes i.e. when going for it a bit.
The brakes to slow gears to go mantra is pointless. By all means change down and use the engine to slow but consider if you are doing it smoothly and the effect of lack of brake lights on any following traffic.
When being taught to drive with my father and an instructor they both instilled in me that a combination of gears/brakes was the best method. Things change, and my son was taught to use only brakes with gears as a useful reserve. I passed my test in 1970 so I won't be altering my routine. Very interesting thread though.
gp1699 said:
My car rev matches for me, tells me what gear to be in and it talks to the sat nav to tell me when to let off the gass to coast up to junctions and roundabouts etc.
Obviously I take no notice of it but what are we coming to??
Integration with satnav sounds interesting, please tell us more about how that works. What car?Obviously I take no notice of it but what are we coming to??
In the UK driving test they are fine with you stopping in 3rd gear and changing down into 1st after you've stopped. However, in Australia the examiners generally expect you to go down through the gears as you slow down to stop. The Police driver's handbook "Roadcraft" is worth reading on this stuff, the general advice is "be in the appropriate gear for the speed you are travelling". I recommend reading it: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Roadcraft-Police-Drivers-...
If approaching a red light (or slow/stopped line of traffic) from a distance, good driving would be slowing down gently (braking when you're changing down) and going down through the gears so you maintain safely maintain momentum should the light go green or the traffic start moving again before you would otherwise have to stop. Saves fuel, saves tyres, and brake linings.
If approaching a red light (or slow/stopped line of traffic) from a distance, good driving would be slowing down gently (braking when you're changing down) and going down through the gears so you maintain safely maintain momentum should the light go green or the traffic start moving again before you would otherwise have to stop. Saves fuel, saves tyres, and brake linings.
Reg Local said:
A couple of things to bear in mind if you're using gears to slow instead of brakes:
1. (As someone has already mentioned) you won't be showing brake lights to the vehicles behind, who may not be looking in the same place as you and may not appreciate that you're slowing down.
2. You'll only be slowing the driven wheels, so unless you're in a car with permanent four-wheel drive, you'll only have two wheels and tyres doing the slowing for you.
In addition, unless you're covering the brake pedal with your foot whilst slowing, there will be a small additional delay if the situation changes and you find yourself needing some brakes.
Best advice when slowing for a hazard is to brake, rather than use the gears. If you want to change down whilst you're braking, fine. You won't pass an advanced driving test with this technique, but if it works for you, then carry on.
I've only read page 1 so far, so there may be more gems to come, but many thanks for this.1. (As someone has already mentioned) you won't be showing brake lights to the vehicles behind, who may not be looking in the same place as you and may not appreciate that you're slowing down.
2. You'll only be slowing the driven wheels, so unless you're in a car with permanent four-wheel drive, you'll only have two wheels and tyres doing the slowing for you.
In addition, unless you're covering the brake pedal with your foot whilst slowing, there will be a small additional delay if the situation changes and you find yourself needing some brakes.
Best advice when slowing for a hazard is to brake, rather than use the gears. If you want to change down whilst you're braking, fine. You won't pass an advanced driving test with this technique, but if it works for you, then carry on.
I've asked many IAMs and they have never come up with a valid reason (usually spouting wear and tear), but both of your reasons are good enough to try to change 30 years of a bad habit.
MadDog1962 said:
If approaching a red light (or slow/stopped line of traffic) from a distance, good driving would be slowing down gently (braking when you're changing down) and going down through the gears so you maintain safely maintain momentum should the light go green or the traffic start moving again before you would otherwise have to stop. Saves fuel, saves tyres, and brake linings.
No. Quite apart from requiring H/T that involves changing into gears you won't use.Dr Jekyll said:
MadDog1962 said:
If approaching a red light (or slow/stopped line of traffic) from a distance, good driving would be slowing down gently (braking when you're changing down) and going down through the gears so you maintain safely maintain momentum should the light go green or the traffic start moving again before you would otherwise have to stop. Saves fuel, saves tyres, and brake linings.
No. Quite apart from requiring H/T that involves changing into gears you won't use.In the situation presented, I would probably make an early change from 5th to 3rd gear, and try to arrange my approach in a way that should enable me to continue in 3rd gear; and if that doesn't work, declutch when the engine speed gets too low for 3rd gear, and brake gently to a halt.
waremark said:
Integration with satnav sounds interesting, please tell us more about how that works. What car?
Yeh it is quite an interesting feature, the car is a BMW 118d. When you are approaching a roundabout, road junction or even a change in speed limit (say 40mph to 30mph) it will show a symbol on the dash telling you when to lift off the pedal. This is so you are using the engine to slow you down and save fuel. I'm guilty of this bad habit currently. I've owned 3 manual cars, 1 DSG auto, recently getting back into a manual car as well, the old habits die hard. I will say this though, I drove 50,000 miles in 7 years with my first manual car, did this habit the entire time, and what ended up going was the clutch cable. So keep in mind, this is wear and tear on the entire system, and think of it in the reverse, not how much clutch/gear wear am I doing, but more, how much extra brakes do you really think you'll get, by not using them? I suspect (just like the original perspective), its not that much, and brakes are always cheaper.
But I will say, hard braking should be for emergencies, often I am touching my brakes only to let the person behind me know 'Hey! HEY! I'm slowing down! Back off!', which mostly I think is people tailgating me, but if I am using my clutch and gears to avoid rubbing off my brake pads, I'm sure some of the time these events are overlapping.
I'm going to make a concerted effort now to use my brakes more, but I still much prefer looking as far a head as possible, leaving as much room as possible without indicating to another person 'no please, take this gap I've left, be my guest' and using brakes only when completely necessary and when coming to a complete stop. Using the 'least' amount of braking, for the brake light to your fellow drivers does make sense, reduces impulse force on the brakes, reduces the chances of being rear ended while indicating you're braking just as much as harder braking and encourages you to leave greater gaps between cars, win-win-win, which should all add up to safer cheaper driving.
But I will say, hard braking should be for emergencies, often I am touching my brakes only to let the person behind me know 'Hey! HEY! I'm slowing down! Back off!', which mostly I think is people tailgating me, but if I am using my clutch and gears to avoid rubbing off my brake pads, I'm sure some of the time these events are overlapping.
I'm going to make a concerted effort now to use my brakes more, but I still much prefer looking as far a head as possible, leaving as much room as possible without indicating to another person 'no please, take this gap I've left, be my guest' and using brakes only when completely necessary and when coming to a complete stop. Using the 'least' amount of braking, for the brake light to your fellow drivers does make sense, reduces impulse force on the brakes, reduces the chances of being rear ended while indicating you're braking just as much as harder braking and encourages you to leave greater gaps between cars, win-win-win, which should all add up to safer cheaper driving.
p1esk said:
Dr Jekyll said:
MadDog1962 said:
If approaching a red light (or slow/stopped line of traffic) from a distance, good driving would be slowing down gently (braking when you're changing down) and going down through the gears so you maintain safely maintain momentum should the light go green or the traffic start moving again before you would otherwise have to stop. Saves fuel, saves tyres, and brake linings.
No. Quite apart from requiring H/T that involves changing into gears you won't use.In the situation presented, I would probably make an early change from 5th to 3rd gear, and try to arrange my approach in a way that should enable me to continue in 3rd gear; and if that doesn't work, declutch when the engine speed gets too low for 3rd gear, and brake gently to a halt.
My right foot covers the brake all the way down the deceleration lane, but is rarely needed.
I use engine braking until about 50mph, approx the end of the chevrons, change to 4th (rev matching), engine braking, change the 3rd at about 30mph (rev matching), engine braking, 2nd at about 15mph, roll to judge the lights, but not stopping (unless traffic behind is heavy/close when I will continue to a stop).
I now appreciate that nobody behind is being warned that I am slowing down and that my foot is not covering the brake while I am rev-matching.
Question_from_Me said:
What should I do when I get to 30ish and 5th gear engine speed drops to 800rpm?
Do I de-clutch and coast to the stop-point using harder braking because I lost engine braking much earlier?
Do I drop to 2nd and engage the clutch using clutch drag (as I can't rev-match without releasing the brake)?
Don't say H+T, as it's a skill that needs practice to do (and I don't fancy practising it on a motorway slip road) Do I de-clutch and coast to the stop-point using harder braking because I lost engine braking much earlier?
Do I drop to 2nd and engage the clutch using clutch drag (as I can't rev-match without releasing the brake)?
I'll be testing out the answer at around 1600 today - so I suggest that you keep clear of the area
[quote=Conza but I still much prefer looking as far a head as possible, leaving as much room as possible without indicating to another person 'no please, take this gap I've left, be my guest' and using brakes only when completely necessary and when coming to a complete stop. Using the 'least' amount of braking, for the brake light to your fellow drivers does make sense, reduces impulse force on the brakes, reduces the chances of being rear ended while indicating you're braking just as much as harder braking and encourages you to leave greater gaps between cars, win-win-win, which should all add up to safer cheaper driving.
[/quote]
Yes, absolutely. The debate is about what to do when easing off the throttle well in advance isn't slowing you enough. Do you use the brake as firmly as required and leave the gears alone? Or change gear and use engine braking (in practice often clutch braking)? Or brake a little bit then back up with engine braking if req'd?
My view is that brakes operate on all the wheels and has ABS. Engine braking usually doesn't do the former and as far as I know never has the latter.
[/quote]
Yes, absolutely. The debate is about what to do when easing off the throttle well in advance isn't slowing you enough. Do you use the brake as firmly as required and leave the gears alone? Or change gear and use engine braking (in practice often clutch braking)? Or brake a little bit then back up with engine braking if req'd?
My view is that brakes operate on all the wheels and has ABS. Engine braking usually doesn't do the former and as far as I know never has the latter.
HustleRussell said:
NDNDNDND said:
Learn to heel n' toe.
It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
Personally wouldn't use or encourage heel & toe in this scenario (where you can pretty much coast down to the appropriate speed with little/no braking). H&T here just puts unnecessary fuel and revs into the unloaded engine for no benefit and no matter how good you are at H&T (which is supremely difficult or impossible in modern over-assisted braking systems) you aren't going to be able to be as smooth as coasting down and shifting once into the correct gear to move off. I'd probably make one rev-matched downshift. It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
I go down the gearbox with H&T only when I'm using a decent amount of brakes i.e. when going for it a bit.
pingu393 said:
Please feel free to comment on my braking this afternoon... https://youtu.be/F_DKL0gOOd8
I'd have de-clutched just before the car started to protest, but otherwise that looked about right.I've always understood 'coasting' (sorry - COASTING) to mean travelling in neutral, rather than in gear with the clutch disengaged. Given that there's a stationary van and a red light in front of you, would there be any advantage in being in a lower gear at that point?
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