Is changing down through the gears a bad habit
Discussion
Slightly deviating .....I have been "assessing" some Romanian folk who are over here to become Taxi drivers......they almost all of them....on slowing knock the gear stick into "Neutral" when slowing down.....They assure me that is what they teach them to do over there when they learn to drive.
It is very very difficult to break this method of driving for them.
On the Original OP's post, does he check his mirrors before slowing? if there is nothing behind him then using engine braking is not a bad idea, as on slowing keeping his foot off the clutch, on modern cars the fuel supply is cut off, and he will be enjoying several 10's or 100's of metres of "free" driving saving fuel, then when he has slowed to a speed he wants for that/a gear, then "block" change into his desired gear so his gears will now "pull him" as the gas goes in. Saving on many unnecessary gear changes, and hence work for him and wear and tear on his vehicle. The amount of folk who dip the clutch on braking, and "coast" to a stop defies logic....they are increasing the amount of work the brakes have to do....therefore increasing stopping distance , and as RU said one day going to be unlucky when they hit some ice/diesel etc... and don't have engine compression helping them slow, and maintain steering control if they happen to be turning at the same time
I managed 83.7 MPG out of my Mini yesterday on the M27 between Portsmouth and Southampton doing up to about 50-55 mph by feathering the gas pedal, Traffic was very heavy 0730 and just easing off the gas every time someone pulled out in front of me, or cut across into my "space". Several cars in lane 3 were hoofing past, but bet they only got there a couple of minutes earlier, if that? as they were constantly on their brakes, maybe changing gear loads, and accelerating to get back up to the speed they wanted to be at. Only managed that as I was creating Space in front of me, and anticipating when I might need to "engine" brake....didn't touch the brakes much at all unless vehicles behind "needed to know" . My record for not braking on Motorways is from junc 36 M1.....down to Winnal Roundabout over the M3/A34 near on 200 miles trying to stay at 70 mph....makes driving fun watching those in front slam on the brakes when all you need to do (if you have space in front) is lift off...and gently back on, changing lanes....over taking the numpties who moments before over took you and then braked!
It is very very difficult to break this method of driving for them.
On the Original OP's post, does he check his mirrors before slowing? if there is nothing behind him then using engine braking is not a bad idea, as on slowing keeping his foot off the clutch, on modern cars the fuel supply is cut off, and he will be enjoying several 10's or 100's of metres of "free" driving saving fuel, then when he has slowed to a speed he wants for that/a gear, then "block" change into his desired gear so his gears will now "pull him" as the gas goes in. Saving on many unnecessary gear changes, and hence work for him and wear and tear on his vehicle. The amount of folk who dip the clutch on braking, and "coast" to a stop defies logic....they are increasing the amount of work the brakes have to do....therefore increasing stopping distance , and as RU said one day going to be unlucky when they hit some ice/diesel etc... and don't have engine compression helping them slow, and maintain steering control if they happen to be turning at the same time
I managed 83.7 MPG out of my Mini yesterday on the M27 between Portsmouth and Southampton doing up to about 50-55 mph by feathering the gas pedal, Traffic was very heavy 0730 and just easing off the gas every time someone pulled out in front of me, or cut across into my "space". Several cars in lane 3 were hoofing past, but bet they only got there a couple of minutes earlier, if that? as they were constantly on their brakes, maybe changing gear loads, and accelerating to get back up to the speed they wanted to be at. Only managed that as I was creating Space in front of me, and anticipating when I might need to "engine" brake....didn't touch the brakes much at all unless vehicles behind "needed to know" . My record for not braking on Motorways is from junc 36 M1.....down to Winnal Roundabout over the M3/A34 near on 200 miles trying to stay at 70 mph....makes driving fun watching those in front slam on the brakes when all you need to do (if you have space in front) is lift off...and gently back on, changing lanes....over taking the numpties who moments before over took you and then braked!
Edited by watchnut on Thursday 17th December 16:00
watchnut - I've noticed people who dip the clutch incredibly early and coast. Or people who dip the clutch and change into every gear on the way down, but never lift the clutch!
The irony is in trying to change my down-through-the-gears habit I'm dipping the clutch (to work my way down) and thinking "I'm trying not to do that" and then coasting!
I'm nowhere near your braking record but I do leave a big gap and try to avoid braking where possible, using engine braking to slow me down. It's a more relaxing drive and as you said the time difference in arrival is minimal. I was instinctively changing down into each gear when approaching a junction, now I'm leaving it in the original gear as long as possible and using engine braking that way (one gear) then selecting the lower forward gear. It is easier and saves a lot of faffing, I just need to work at overriding muscle memory!
The irony is in trying to change my down-through-the-gears habit I'm dipping the clutch (to work my way down) and thinking "I'm trying not to do that" and then coasting!
I'm nowhere near your braking record but I do leave a big gap and try to avoid braking where possible, using engine braking to slow me down. It's a more relaxing drive and as you said the time difference in arrival is minimal. I was instinctively changing down into each gear when approaching a junction, now I'm leaving it in the original gear as long as possible and using engine braking that way (one gear) then selecting the lower forward gear. It is easier and saves a lot of faffing, I just need to work at overriding muscle memory!
Thing is "Soups" is that your thinking about it, therefore it will come!
When braking or engine braking once you have a speed change you ideally want "the gear for that speed"....so when you want to "Go" again you are already there......say you go from 6th (say 50 mph +) to 3rd ( say a little over 20 mph)a great gear change missing out 4 and 5, engine compression will help slow your vehicle down further if it is required, but if you want to "go" then you are already there. whilst you are off the gas if your car has a computer showing current MPG then it will leap up to the hundreds of MPG (Skoda's do this) or in the case of my Mini up to 99.9 MPG showing you are using no fuel.
(as safety is everything, don't get obsessed with staring at computers too long or you tend to hit stuff!)
As you said many go down through the box with the clutch in all the time...utter pants....clutch should go in to prevent a stall on stopping or to change gear.....what many of the people you watch are doing is "coasting" and crap!.....try telling them that....they don't like it!....so be warned all feedback on driving is never easy to impart, when I get paid for doing it, it is great seeing the "non verbal communication" but being able to "suggest" a reason and solution to "changing" driver behaviour is a wee bit more difficult....to the wife...impossible. When i do "Fleet" work, and have an hour to try and re educate folk, many are very receptive to some "coaching" especially if it means they can save some money on fuel consumption.
When i do "eco" courses on average I am achieving some 23% fuel savings , by making very little changes to their driving. This can easily be done by creating space, looking further ahead, "feathering" the gas pedal, lifting off, braking early and very gently, block changing gears. For many "crinklies" leaving the "stop/start" switched on. the amount of folk that turn it off as they "don't like it".....but happy to sit at traffic lights engine idling say for up to 2 minutes....burning fuel and going no where! For many when I do eco courses they do the same route twice, once with me observing, and the same course after a brief chat about how i feel they could do it "differently"...then I coach them around it. many if not most, get around in less time the second time around, using less fuel, at a higher average speed. This confuses the crap out of some, until the penny drops that it is trying to keep a constant speed, not starting from stationary (if traffic allows), not braking late and hard, not accelerating harshly towards traffic braking/stationary in front of you, using "block" changing of the gears, that gets you from a to b quicker, less stressed, and less money spent on fuel.....simples
When braking or engine braking once you have a speed change you ideally want "the gear for that speed"....so when you want to "Go" again you are already there......say you go from 6th (say 50 mph +) to 3rd ( say a little over 20 mph)a great gear change missing out 4 and 5, engine compression will help slow your vehicle down further if it is required, but if you want to "go" then you are already there. whilst you are off the gas if your car has a computer showing current MPG then it will leap up to the hundreds of MPG (Skoda's do this) or in the case of my Mini up to 99.9 MPG showing you are using no fuel.
(as safety is everything, don't get obsessed with staring at computers too long or you tend to hit stuff!)
As you said many go down through the box with the clutch in all the time...utter pants....clutch should go in to prevent a stall on stopping or to change gear.....what many of the people you watch are doing is "coasting" and crap!.....try telling them that....they don't like it!....so be warned all feedback on driving is never easy to impart, when I get paid for doing it, it is great seeing the "non verbal communication" but being able to "suggest" a reason and solution to "changing" driver behaviour is a wee bit more difficult....to the wife...impossible. When i do "Fleet" work, and have an hour to try and re educate folk, many are very receptive to some "coaching" especially if it means they can save some money on fuel consumption.
When i do "eco" courses on average I am achieving some 23% fuel savings , by making very little changes to their driving. This can easily be done by creating space, looking further ahead, "feathering" the gas pedal, lifting off, braking early and very gently, block changing gears. For many "crinklies" leaving the "stop/start" switched on. the amount of folk that turn it off as they "don't like it".....but happy to sit at traffic lights engine idling say for up to 2 minutes....burning fuel and going no where! For many when I do eco courses they do the same route twice, once with me observing, and the same course after a brief chat about how i feel they could do it "differently"...then I coach them around it. many if not most, get around in less time the second time around, using less fuel, at a higher average speed. This confuses the crap out of some, until the penny drops that it is trying to keep a constant speed, not starting from stationary (if traffic allows), not braking late and hard, not accelerating harshly towards traffic braking/stationary in front of you, using "block" changing of the gears, that gets you from a to b quicker, less stressed, and less money spent on fuel.....simples
I'm not sure if this fits here but it is about gears. Here in Australia the number of cars with automatic (clutchless) gears, like in the US, vastly out numbers cars with three pedals. This trend is also strongly occurring within the truck area. Most trucks are now some sort of auto and few driving schools even have manual cars or trucks. In NSW the only need for an additional test is if you want an "unrestricted" licence to drive RoadRanger crash gearbox trucks - after 1 year of holding an auto licence you can just drive a manual. If you pass an HGV test in an auto you can drive a truck with synchromesh gears!!!!!
What am I leading to?? Well the UK has a (vastly) much better track record in road safety than Australia and the USA. My experience as a fleet driver trainer is that most (almost ALL!) habitual automatic drivers leave slowing down for any hazard too late, because they don't have to change gears. This leads to easily spinning the steering wheel (whether a Nissan Leaf or 23T truck) with the palm of the hand, or steering like a baboon peeling a banana. They get away with this most of the time until........ Most 'experienced' drivers I see approach hazards too fast because they drive 'automatically'.
When under evaluation I insist that even in an auto drivers slow down to the appropriate speed for a given hazard well before (where they would have to change gear in a manual) so that they can stop easily if needed. Also I feel that the auto vehicle can automatically change down under less pressure and therefore less wear and tear. When I do get the opportunity to demonstrate in a vehicle with a crash gearbox I show slowing down to the safe speed, off the brakes to double declutch ONE gearchange (8 to 3 etc), unless downhill or a misjudgement. Ideally this is followed by driving through the hazard at the safe speed in the correct gear before accelerating away. If I get it wrong then I may have to secondary brake.
So watch out UK drivers - I reckon auto driving = more crashes............
What am I leading to?? Well the UK has a (vastly) much better track record in road safety than Australia and the USA. My experience as a fleet driver trainer is that most (almost ALL!) habitual automatic drivers leave slowing down for any hazard too late, because they don't have to change gears. This leads to easily spinning the steering wheel (whether a Nissan Leaf or 23T truck) with the palm of the hand, or steering like a baboon peeling a banana. They get away with this most of the time until........ Most 'experienced' drivers I see approach hazards too fast because they drive 'automatically'.
When under evaluation I insist that even in an auto drivers slow down to the appropriate speed for a given hazard well before (where they would have to change gear in a manual) so that they can stop easily if needed. Also I feel that the auto vehicle can automatically change down under less pressure and therefore less wear and tear. When I do get the opportunity to demonstrate in a vehicle with a crash gearbox I show slowing down to the safe speed, off the brakes to double declutch ONE gearchange (8 to 3 etc), unless downhill or a misjudgement. Ideally this is followed by driving through the hazard at the safe speed in the correct gear before accelerating away. If I get it wrong then I may have to secondary brake.
So watch out UK drivers - I reckon auto driving = more crashes............
that sorts the men out from the boys! 
Hi Len,
Having driven in Oz I concur that things ain't what they could be......my biggest fear out there is hoping that the driver coming towards you is awake!
I do like the way the Rozzers go on the radio every morning telling you where the speed traps are going to be...... and yet they still get caught!!!
My Aunt is coming here for a few days over Xmas....she always is stunned about how busy the roads are here!
Having driven in Oz I concur that things ain't what they could be......my biggest fear out there is hoping that the driver coming towards you is awake!
I do like the way the Rozzers go on the radio every morning telling you where the speed traps are going to be...... and yet they still get caught!!!
My Aunt is coming here for a few days over Xmas....she always is stunned about how busy the roads are here!
The only likely damage to a clutch would be if the driver used clutch drag (changing down and lifting the clutch to brake) rather than engine braking which means lifting the revs to match engine speed then lifting the accelerator peddle to slow down. You'd be surprised how many drivers believe they are using engine braking when in fact they are using clutch drag. Clutch drag is bad. Don't do it.
As you were chaps.
As you were chaps.
Johnniem said:
The only likely damage to a clutch would be if the driver used clutch drag (changing down and lifting the clutch to brake) rather than engine braking which means lifting the revs to match engine speed then lifting the accelerator peddle to slow down. You'd be surprised how many drivers believe they are using engine braking when in fact they are using clutch drag. Clutch drag is bad. Don't do it.
I was guilty of this until starting this topic. Clutch drag was "advanced" engine braking to me (!), I now know otherwise. Operate the clutch at the same speed and all braking should be brakes and the engine RPM dropping with the accelerator off. I know loads of people who are guilty of clutch drag and as it's so subtle the mechanical problems are not obvious (such as snatching the clutch or grinding gears which are immediately known for being bad).Reg Local said:
But the OP stated that they were slowing with the gears habitually, and it's the habit, rather than the specific scenario which can be the problem.
I think that you touch on something interesting here, is making any technique too much of a habit, even if it is correct most of the time, a good thing? Block changing is fine most of the time, however is it not worth slowing through the gears occasionally so that you can appreciate that it should be a choice to block change not a habit?I like to use H&T in a manual and left foot brake in an auto, however I try to ensure I do so by choice in the situation, not habit.
Clutch should be in or out not slipping revs matched to gears and correct gear for road speed, slowing for and anticipapting a need to stop or slow use the gears and then brakes , hills always go down in the same gear as you would go up in , mind its easier to just teach people to use the brakes hence the current thinking of gears to go brakes to slow
not very elegant or smooth mind !!
not very elegant or smooth mind !!
charltjr said:
How much you wear the clutch by is indefinable as it depends on the car, the road and your normal driving. It will certainly shorten the life of the clutch but I can't see it making a massive difference.
It is still not regarded as best practice these days though.
I think that's right.It is still not regarded as best practice these days though.
The best thing to do is try to be aware of all the pros and cons of the various actions you could take while driving, and then make your choice according to your own preferences.
Just because a lot of people frown on a particular way of doing things doesn't mean it's really wrong. Some people accept the conventional 'wisdom' a bit too readily in my view.
I've noticed that when selecting the gear to use after a roundabout with a clear road ahead I'm coming off the accelerator, dipping the clutch and easing it up very slowly with no accelerator input to rev match. I'm using the clutch to rev match. I've noticed the bad habit as at higher speed down changes I'm rev matching with the accelerator. Am I right in thinking it is naughty to do this and I'm substituting good rev matching for clutch wear?
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