Is changing down through the gears a bad habit
Discussion
SoupAnxiety said:
I've noticed that when selecting the gear to use after a roundabout with a clear road ahead I'm coming off the accelerator, dipping the clutch and easing it up very slowly with no accelerator input to rev match. I'm using the clutch to rev match. I've noticed the bad habit as at higher speed down changes I'm rev matching with the accelerator. Am I right in thinking it is naughty to do this and I'm substituting good rev matching for clutch wear?
Sounds like you're lifting off the accelerator completely when you're changing up and allowing the revs to drop to idle speed whilst you're changing gear?Rather than lifting off completely, you should release the accelerator - but don't lift off it completely. Keep a little pressure on the pedal so that the revs just drop to roughly the correct speed for the next gear. No need to ne excessively slow in releasing the clutch - in fact, if you've matched the revs correctly, the timing of the clutch release isn't really very important (although you should never sidestep - or jump off - the clutch).
There may or may not be a video out there on a popular video-sharing site which demonstrates this. I'd post a link, but the Obergruppenmods get a bit nippy if I do.
Reg Local said:
Sounds like you're lifting off the accelerator completely when you're changing up and allowing the revs to drop to idle speed whilst you're changing gear?
Rather than lifting off completely, you should release the accelerator - but don't lift off it completely. Keep a little pressure on the pedal so that the revs just drop to roughly the correct speed for the next gear. No need to ne excessively slow in releasing the clutch - in fact, if you've matched the revs correctly, the timing of the clutch release isn't really very important (although you should never sidestep - or jump off - the clutch).
There may or may not be a video out there on a popular video-sharing site which demonstrates this. I'd post a link, but the Obergruppenmods get a bit nippy if I do.
I'm trying to rev match when going up, I find this relatively straightforward but the increase in revs in neutral for going down is a bit clunky. What about when changing down? Is it always necessary to increase and hold the revs whilst in neutral on a down change or is it acceptable to just ease the clutch up slowly to match the revs? I've noticed when slowing to turn into the street where I live I'm braking, then (whilst braking) changing from third to second so I'm not rev matching but feathering the clutch up to compensate. Not sure if changing whilst braking is a no no.Rather than lifting off completely, you should release the accelerator - but don't lift off it completely. Keep a little pressure on the pedal so that the revs just drop to roughly the correct speed for the next gear. No need to ne excessively slow in releasing the clutch - in fact, if you've matched the revs correctly, the timing of the clutch release isn't really very important (although you should never sidestep - or jump off - the clutch).
There may or may not be a video out there on a popular video-sharing site which demonstrates this. I'd post a link, but the Obergruppenmods get a bit nippy if I do.
SoupAnxiety said:
I'm trying to rev match when going up, I find this relatively straightforward but the increase in revs in neutral for going down is a bit clunky. What about when changing down? Is it always necessary to increase and hold the revs whilst in neutral on a down change or is it acceptable to just ease the clutch up slowly to match the revs? I've noticed when slowing to turn into the street where I live I'm braking, then (whilst braking) changing from third to second so I'm not rev matching but feathering the clutch up to compensate. Not sure if changing whilst braking is a no no.
I'm sorry to say that this is what really gets me about the whole AD world. It really doesn't matter. Not a jot. It's not a mark of a good or bad driver, it's just tosh. It makes no difference whatsoever that you've not rev matched. FFS. Really, I get so cross about it 
Just read what Roadcraft has to say.
Bert
Smoothness,it's all about smoothness.
Rev matching going up and especially down the box is good for smoothness.
Braking and block changes, with a little dab of accelerator is good for smoothness.
Selecting the correct gear,and the correct engine speed for the conditions is good for this to.
So is early and light braking, and positioning the car in the correct place in the road,and keeping appropriate gaps on motorways.
So smoothness makes the car stay on the road, and go fast, and use less fuel, and last longer, and bump into things less.
This is the thing to concentrate on. And I am a driving god with a goatee. (1 of those statements might not be true)
Rev matching going up and especially down the box is good for smoothness.
Braking and block changes, with a little dab of accelerator is good for smoothness.
Selecting the correct gear,and the correct engine speed for the conditions is good for this to.
So is early and light braking, and positioning the car in the correct place in the road,and keeping appropriate gaps on motorways.
So smoothness makes the car stay on the road, and go fast, and use less fuel, and last longer, and bump into things less.
This is the thing to concentrate on. And I am a driving god with a goatee. (1 of those statements might not be true)
ORD said:
No. It does. Using the clutch slip instead of rev matching is bad driving. It shows a lack of skill and a disregard for the components. If the standard is 'No worse than him next door', fair enough, but the OP wants to be a good driver, not just 'Not Terrible'.
OK. So what would your technique be in this scenario then;You're driving a normal modern manual car in which Heel & Toe cannot be used. You are doing 45mph in 3rd heading steeply downhill into a sharp corner where 2nd gear and 20mph will be required. How are you going to smoothly scrub off the speed and get the gear before you turn in?
This thread crops up every year and the sad thing is that the way youngsters are taught to drive these days means they would not be capable of driving some of my cars. The Lagonda requires a proper, accurate double de-clutch process to engage gear, any gear. Although I have 3 sons and a step-son in their 30s and all very interested in cars it would be a very long job for them to learn how to drive it - and one I'd rather them not go through on my gearbox! While decelerating up to a roundabout in 5th on the brakes and selecting 2nd as required is fine, it's not going to expand the driving ability of anyone beyond basic capability. That's ok if that's all you're interested in but not if you actually want to be able to drive a selection of cars.
HustleRussell said:
OK. So what would your technique be in this scenario then;
You're driving a normal modern manual car in which Heel & Toe cannot be used. You are doing 45mph in 3rd heading steeply downhill into a sharp corner where 2nd gear and 20mph will be required. How are you going to smoothly scrub off the speed and get the gear before you turn in?
brake early, blip while changing down, take corner under power, maybe increase power for a playful slide ;-)You're driving a normal modern manual car in which Heel & Toe cannot be used. You are doing 45mph in 3rd heading steeply downhill into a sharp corner where 2nd gear and 20mph will be required. How are you going to smoothly scrub off the speed and get the gear before you turn in?
secret is that as you're going d'hill you'll need a big blip, change early and maybe keep revs up in second
CABC said:
HustleRussell said:
OK. So what would your technique be in this scenario then;
You're driving a normal modern manual car in which Heel & Toe cannot be used. You are doing 45mph in 3rd heading steeply downhill into a sharp corner where 2nd gear and 20mph will be required. How are you going to smoothly scrub off the speed and get the gear before you turn in?
brake early, blip while changing down, take corner under power, maybe increase power for a playful slide ;-)You're driving a normal modern manual car in which Heel & Toe cannot be used. You are doing 45mph in 3rd heading steeply downhill into a sharp corner where 2nd gear and 20mph will be required. How are you going to smoothly scrub off the speed and get the gear before you turn in?
secret is that as you're going d'hill you'll need a big blip, change early and maybe keep revs up in second
HustleRussell said:
True, but although I consider myself a proper petrolhead, I'm not sure that crash boxes or double declutching have any place in the current UK driving test since we've been spoiled with synchromesh for the past 60 years or so...
D.Declutching may have no role in the test but it's useful skill for a petrolhead. i'm no expert as i too rely on synchromesh most of the time, but i have an old car where synchro on 2nd is worn and d'shifts from 3rd/4th will crunch without a good match. It's not a fast car so rather than blip i dd into 2nd. it's charming and reminds you of the mechanical side of the car.
Pretty interesting thread. I come from a farming background using dodgy tractors and towing heavy trailers from no age.. I fear I have some bad habits which are good in farm machinery where you aren't sure whether brakes are there to use or not but are a bit hard on modern cars! I try to use brakes as little as possible but recently got a new clutch and flywheel and can't seem to change down smoothly at all! Anyhow...
I second the non existence of modern cars engine braking why is this? Is it to assist in smoother driving or efficiency?
I second the non existence of modern cars engine braking why is this? Is it to assist in smoother driving or efficiency?
CABC said:
HustleRussell said:
Which foot are you blipping with?
right. if you can't h&t and it's downhill you have to change earlier. and maybe hold 2nd at higher revs than you would on a flat corner This would avoid declutching and therefore accelerating downhill while having to make a BIG blip to rev match 2nd.
veccy208 said:
I second the non existence of modern cars engine braking why is this? Is it to assist in smoother driving or efficiency?
I'd imagine higher weight and longer gear ratios are a factor, plus low rolling resistance tyres and slippery aero. Plus anything with a turbocharged engine is going to run a comparatively lower compression ratio.
HustleRussell said:
You see if I was doing a long downhill stretch of alpine hairpins in a car which can't H&T I'd probably consider that a reasonable circumstance in which I could control the speed on the brakes and drag the clutch up in the lower gear after the car is turned in and on it's way to the 'apex'.
This would avoid declutching and therefore accelerating downhill while having to make a BIG blip to rev match 2nd.
fair enough. i'd probably do the same to be honest ;-)This would avoid declutching and therefore accelerating downhill while having to make a BIG blip to rev match 2nd.
This is the advanced thread though, i think the argument is that you should change down earlier, keeping it smooth but have the 'correct' lower gear so that you have full control of the car, ie accelerate if needed (unlikley in your scenario i agree) or have some engine braking should your brakes fail (which is true). The theory is to be always in control even if it means big blips, high revs etc when you could spend a lifetime never encountering the emergency scenario.
Loving the e34 btw.
HustleRussell said:
You see if I was doing a long downhill stretch of alpine hairpins in a car which can't H&T I'd probably consider that a reasonable circumstance in which I could control the speed on the brakes and drag the clutch up in the lower gear after the car is turned in and on it's way to the 'apex'.
This would avoid declutching and therefore accelerating downhill while having to make a BIG blip to rev match 2nd.
I agree that separation seems untidy in these circumstances. However, I would prefer to make the gear change either before or after the hairpin. Or perhaps not at all. But in most cars I would H & T.This would avoid declutching and therefore accelerating downhill while having to make a BIG blip to rev match 2nd.
CABC said:
This is the advanced thread though, i think the argument is that you should change down earlier, keeping it smooth but have the 'correct' lower gear so that you have full control of the car, ie accelerate if needed (unlikley in your scenario i agree) or have some engine braking should your brakes fail (which is true). The theory is to be always in control even if it means big blips, high revs etc when you could spend a lifetime never encountering the emergency scenario.
Reading this and the earlier posts I get the idea behind the theory. In some situations, such as the hill with a bend at the bottom, I'm incorporating my gear changes into a manoeuvre. I'll try to change early and avoid using the clutch as a brake.The effectiveness of engine braking is obviously proportional to the size and torquiness (sorry!) of the engine. In my former car (TVR Chimaera 450) the torque was incredible and was there from very very low revs, hence I was able to move behind traffic going down very steep hills without use of the brakes at all. Just engage first or second and take foot off accelerator entirely (or use revs to suit). With the current car, Cayman, there is a lot less torque at low revs so the engine braking for the scenario above is less useful but the idea would be to just change down to the lower gear earlier and adjust revs to suit conditions (still using engine braking - rather than clutch drag). This could still be useful in a car with less torque or power but to less effect, if that makes sense?
Johnniem said:
The effectiveness of engine braking is obviously proportional to the size and torquiness (sorry!) of the engine. In my former car (TVR Chimaera 450) the torque was incredible and was there from very very low revs, hence I was able to move behind traffic going down very steep hills without use of the brakes at all. Just engage first or second and take foot off accelerator entirely (or use revs to suit). With the current car, Cayman, there is a lot less torque at low revs so the engine braking for the scenario above is less useful but the idea would be to just change down to the lower gear earlier and adjust revs to suit conditions (still using engine braking - rather than clutch drag). This could still be useful in a car with less torque or power but to less effect, if that makes sense?
On my commute home tonight I tried selecting gears earlier and it did feel better arriving at a slow corner (e.g. 90 degree bend into residential area) in the correct gear. I'm already naturally doing it for roundabouts, selecting the gear on approach, I'm not sure why I'm treating junctions differently.Another itch I've got is pulling out of a T junction from a stop. You're in first gear, at the moment I'm changing into second as I pull out and turn left (resulting in one hand on the wheel and a mediocre gear change. I'm being critical of my driving as I've signed up with IAM and will have my first local meeting soon! I'm guessing correct procedure is to stay in first as you turn and when straight change up.
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff