Is changing down through the gears a bad habit
Discussion
To add to that, unless I am cruising then I will always aim to be in the gear that gives maximum acceleration. Therefore, unless I fancy coasting around (which absolutely reduces control/balance of the vehicle) using the gears to aid braking 'happens' by default anyway.
Ultimately, whether the engine is doing it or the brakes are doing it or a combination of the two, the tyre/road interface doesn't much care. Grip is grip.
Ultimately, whether the engine is doing it or the brakes are doing it or a combination of the two, the tyre/road interface doesn't much care. Grip is grip.
Reg Local said:
cmaguire said:
Using a combination of gearbox and brakes to slow down is exactly the right thing to do in a modern car with regard to going faster and maintaining best control.
Why?I'd also suggest the "system" was designed to work for drivers of all skill levels. I've been lucky enough to sit next to truly gifted drivers, those who can left foot brake, shift 3 gears, balance a slide on the acclerator with 3 turns of oppo, simultaneously, all while chatting away about what was on telly last night and be completely smooth and seamless. And i've also sat next to people who can't even change a single gear without the car bouncing all over the shop! So, the "system" needs to provide for both ends of the spectrum.
So i'd suggest if you can overlap brakes and gears, using a technique that works for you, and be totally smooth , then i see no issue with it, as you are probably skilled enough to do it. If you try it, and the car is lurching all over the shop, you'd best stick to keeping things separate ;-)
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 27th November 12:31
Max_Torque said:
I've been lucky enough to sit next to truly gifted drivers, those who can left foot brake, shift 3 gears, balance a slide on the acclerator with 3 turns of oppo, simultaneously, all while chatting away about what was on telly last night and be completely smooth and seamless.
So i'd suggest if you can overlap brakes and gears, using a technique that works for you, and be totally smooth , then i see no issue with it, as you are probably skilled enough to do it. If you try it, and the car is lurching all over the shop, you'd best stick to keeping things separate ;-)
I'm not going to attempt to suggest it was me you were sitting next to, but overlapping brakes and gears is a piece of cake.So i'd suggest if you can overlap brakes and gears, using a technique that works for you, and be totally smooth , then i see no issue with it, as you are probably skilled enough to do it. If you try it, and the car is lurching all over the shop, you'd best stick to keeping things separate ;-)
Edited by Max_Torque on Sunday 27th November 12:31
I also do something else, a variation of which I read someone else being chastised for in this thread. When changing down at speed and using the gears to slow I will lift the clutch into the biting point briefly before fully lifting to keep it smooth.
cmaguire said:
I'm not going to attempt to suggest it was me you were sitting next to, but overlapping brakes and gears is a piece of cake.
I also do something else, a variation of which I read someone else being chastised for in this thread. When changing down at speed and using the gears to slow I will lift the clutch into the biting point briefly before fully lifting to keep it smooth.
You find it a 'piece of cake' because you're doing it badly. Your method is crude, slow, accelerates clutch wear and carries a hugely greater risk of destabilising the vehicle - it's the very opposite of the technique MT is hinting at. I also do something else, a variation of which I read someone else being chastised for in this thread. When changing down at speed and using the gears to slow I will lift the clutch into the biting point briefly before fully lifting to keep it smooth.
Heel n' toe or go home!
Edited by NDNDNDND on Sunday 27th November 13:48
cmaguire said:
I'm not actively trying to use more fuel, but equally I'm not going to let fuel economy impact on my driving. The extra cost is far preferable to the tedium of fuel conservation.
I call bulls
t on this 'gear for best acceleration rubbish'.My car's best accelerating gear for any speed below about 65 and above 30 is 2nd. If you were me, would you spend most of the time off the motorway in 2nd? I doubt it. I expect you, like me, would split the time between the gears, choosing 2nd only when you want lots of acceleration and/or are dropping below 40 or so.
cmaguire said:
Reg Local said:
Why?
Why not?Nobody much cares what I have to say, whereas you have some credibility on here.
To me the idea of separating braking, gear changing, cornering etc is totally alien. I always brake into corners and go straight from brake to throttle. Same on the bike. Trail braking is normal. The vehicle is better balanced and using the gears allows getting off the brake earlier in certain circumstances and therefore onto the throttle.
If you know where the limit of grip is and are comfortable going past that if it happens (or you choose to make it happen) then it isn't a problem.
As I said though, if we slow all this down then 90% of everything is irrelevant anyway.
cmaguire said:
To add to that, unless I am cruising then I will always aim to be in the gear that gives maximum acceleration. Therefore, unless I fancy coasting around (which absolutely reduces control/balance of the vehicle) using the gears to aid braking 'happens' by default anyway.
Ultimately, whether the engine is doing it or the brakes are doing it or a combination of the two, the tyre/road interface doesn't much care. Grip is grip.
I asked the question, because you made a definitive statement...Ultimately, whether the engine is doing it or the brakes are doing it or a combination of the two, the tyre/road interface doesn't much care. Grip is grip.
cmaguire said:
Using a combination of gearbox and brakes to slow down is exactly the right thing to do in a modern car with regard to going faster and maintaining best control.
...without telling us why it's exactly the right thing to do in a modern car.I'm not arrogant enough to think I know everything there is to know about driving & I believe you should never stop learning. If there is a genuine reason - either from the perspective of improving vehicle balance, or from a safety perspective, or in relation to improving mechanical sympathy - that modern cars require a particular driving technique, then I'll always be open-minded about it.
Your reasons, however, seem to be flawed. If - on the road - you're prioritising maximum acceleration, on (and over) limit handling and a fast transition between brake and throttle over the myriad of other more important matters to consider (safety, smoothness, a planned approach to hazards, the safe stopping rule etc.), then you're likely to be taking too many unnecessary risks.
You're not the only person to hold these misguided ideas. I often spend my weekends coaching a drivers with a wide range of different levels of experience & knowledge. I find that - even with the good ones - the first hour or so is spent slowing them down a bit & aiming to achieve a better "flow" along the road. If you take a bit off & improve your ability to assess corners properly, you'll very quickly find that, although you're braking less and accelerating less harshly, your overall flow and pace will improve and you'll actually make better progress on the road.
Slow down to go faster.
And a systematic approach - sorting your speed, then your gear before you get to a corner massively helps you to improve in this respect.
Of course, the stuff you've mentioned is fun and feels faster, but there is more risk involved and it's actually - on the whole - slower. It's certainly less safe, and is actually quite difficult to apply consistently for more than 10 or 15 minutes at a time.
cmaguire said:
I'm not going to attempt to suggest it was me you were sitting next to, but overlapping brakes and gears is a piece of cake.
I also do something else, a variation of which I read someone else being chastised for in this thread. When changing down at speed and using the gears to slow I will lift the clutch into the biting point briefly before fully lifting to keep it smooth.
The biting point has absolutely no place in changing between any gear. Once on the move, and especially if you're "making progress", you should be matching revs well enough to treat the clutch as an on/off switch if you're doing it properly. I also do something else, a variation of which I read someone else being chastised for in this thread. When changing down at speed and using the gears to slow I will lift the clutch into the biting point briefly before fully lifting to keep it smooth.
davepoth said:
The biting point has absolutely no place in changing between any gear. Once on the move, and especially if you're "making progress", you should be matching revs well enough to treat the clutch as an on/off switch if you're doing it properly.
Don't tell me.........nearly there.........got it! Have I got to heel'n'toe?The only way to claim to be fast, and be smug whilst doing it.
The Mad Monk said:
RichB said:
This thread crops up every year and the sad thing is that the way youngsters are taught to drive these days means they would not be capable of driving some of my cars.
And the relevance of that is - what, precisely?p.s. the selective clipping of my remark from last year means that my single sentence is out of context.
cmaguire said:
davepoth said:
The biting point has absolutely no place in changing between any gear. Once on the move, and especially if you're "making progress", you should be matching revs well enough to treat the clutch as an on/off switch if you're doing it properly.
Don't tell me.........nearly there.........got it! Have I got to heel'n'toe?The only way to claim to be fast, and be smug whilst doing it.
It is literally the only way to brake while making a rev-matched down change. If you can't do it, you have to brake earlier and separate out the stages. Fine but inconvenient.
RichB said:
As the thread has been resuscitated I'll try to explain my meaning. The question posed by the OP was clear and many of the answers are that in today's cars it's not necessary, indeed it's not taught. My point was that while in a modern car it's considered better to use the brakes to slow, learning techniques like double de-clutching and rev-matching helps broaden one's scope as a driver. Only if that's of any interest to the driver of course.
p.s. the selective clipping of my remark from last year means that my single sentence is out of context.
In what way is rev-matching or double de-clutching incompatible with using brakes to slow?p.s. the selective clipping of my remark from last year means that my single sentence is out of context.
ORD said:
Chip. Shoulder. Check.
It is literally the only way to brake while making a rev-matched down change. If you can't do it, you have to brake earlier and separate out the stages. Fine but inconvenient.
In what way is it inconvenient?It is literally the only way to brake while making a rev-matched down change. If you can't do it, you have to brake earlier and separate out the stages. Fine but inconvenient.
Reg Local said:
In what way is it inconvenient?
It means I have to brake further from the corner or brake harder. I don't like doing either. I don't like having to get the braking down earlier than the time I want to be back on the throttle. I find it inconvenient.No big deal. It didn't bother me before I could h&t but it does now. I have one car that I can h&t in and another I cannot (well, not competently with light braking - mushy e throttle and over servoed brakes), and I always find it mildly irritating to have to brake earlier than I would want to.
Reg Local said:
RichB said:
As the thread has been resuscitated I'll try to explain my meaning. The question posed by the OP was clear and many of the answers are that in today's cars it's not necessary, indeed it's not taught. My point was that while in a modern car it's considered better to use the brakes to slow, learning techniques like double de-clutching and rev-matching helps broaden one's scope as a driver. Only if that's of any interest to the driver of course.
p.s. the selective clipping of my remark from last year means that my single sentence is out of context.
In what way is rev-matching or double de-clutching incompatible with using brakes to slow?p.s. the selective clipping of my remark from last year means that my single sentence is out of context.
cmaguire said:
davepoth said:
The biting point has absolutely no place in changing between any gear. Once on the move, and especially if you're "making progress", you should be matching revs well enough to treat the clutch as an on/off switch if you're doing it properly.
Don't tell me.........nearly there.........got it! Have I got to heel'n'toe?The only way to claim to be fast, and be smug whilst doing it.
The important thing is the reaction that your driving provokes from the car, and failing to rev match will cause instability - there is a technique in drifting known as "shift lock" which involves shifting down into a lower gear without rev matching with the specific intent of making the rear wheels slide in a similar way to pulling the handbrake. It's effectively an extreme version of how you are currently downshifting.
http://www.driftingstreet.com/shift-lock-drifting-...
davepoth said:
I didn't say anything about heel and toe. All I said is that you should be properly matching the revs. A lot of people here will do that after slowing down, some (myself included) will do it while slowing down - but rev matching is very much part of advanced driving in a manual gearbox equipped car.
The important thing is the reaction that your driving provokes from the car, and failing to rev match will cause instability - there is a technique in drifting known as "shift lock" which involves shifting down into a lower gear without rev matching with the specific intent of making the rear wheels slide in a similar way to pulling the handbrake. It's effectively an extreme version of how you are currently downshifting.
http://www.driftingstreet.com/shift-lock-drifting-...
The heel-and-toe bit wasn't specifically aimed at you.The important thing is the reaction that your driving provokes from the car, and failing to rev match will cause instability - there is a technique in drifting known as "shift lock" which involves shifting down into a lower gear without rev matching with the specific intent of making the rear wheels slide in a similar way to pulling the handbrake. It's effectively an extreme version of how you are currently downshifting.
http://www.driftingstreet.com/shift-lock-drifting-...
When slowing in a straight line, how is this instability introduced exactly?
I'll happily brake into a bend but the conscensus here seems to be to get the braking done before turning.
cmaguire said:
The heel-and-toe bit wasn't specifically aimed at you.
When slowing in a straight line, how is this instability introduced exactly?
I'll happily brake into a bend but the conscensus here seems to be to get the braking done before turning.
You are very rarely going in a straight line. the road has a camber on it which means that if you let go of the steering wheel most cars will generally drift gently to the kerb. Most FWD cars have an element of torque steer, which will work on engine braking as well as with acceleration. Try it on a deserted road, I doubt the car will stop straight if you take your hands off the wheel. When slowing in a straight line, how is this instability introduced exactly?
I'll happily brake into a bend but the conscensus here seems to be to get the braking done before turning.
It's an extreme example in any case, and only really makes the difference right at the limit of grip. However, the big point of advanced driving is to have enough grip available to avoid or fix any situation that might present itself on the road.
The biggest part of that is picking an appropriate speed for the road, but a significant part of it is using your car's grip efficiently. The circle of traction is below:
It's probably not a circle in real life but it's a good illustration. If you are driving at a constant speed you have the maximum grip available for cornering. If you are braking or accelerating you have less grip available on the driven or braked tyre for cornering. So to make sure you have as much grip available as possible, you brake before you turn.
Now, some members will block shift into the correct gear after slowing, which will easily add a while .1 of a second to the corner compared to H'n'Ting all the way down the box. Critical if you are Lewis Hamilton (not this afternoon though!) but on your way to work you'll lose that stuck behind someone driving at 28mph in a 50 for no reason. The speed doesn't matter.
What matters is that when you start turning the wheel, at the point where your visibility is limited by the corner, you have as much grip in reserve in case something unforeseen happens. The best racing drivers do the same thing - maximising the grip in each corner - but they do it so they can go round the corner a bit quicker.
If you are already braking you don't want the engine's help to slow down - all it will do is shift the brake balance towards the driven wheels while it is at high revs, which causes understeer in an FWD car. If there's too much braking force you'll just engage the ABS, so it won't ever make you brake faster.
All H'n'T does is get you into the engine's power band for the next time you want to press the accelerator a bit earlier - the big trick with it, especially when on the road, is to get the timing just right so that the revs fall roughly in line with road speed so that you get almost no engine braking at all.
So in essence, even with H'n'T we're still dealing with "Brakes to slow, gears to go".
That's not to say that engine braking doesn't have its place - coming down a long hill where a constant speed is required it can be useful, especially since modern cars don't inject fuel on the overrun. But generally speaking if you are aiming to slow down it's best to use the brakes to do it.
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