Discussion
I have to agree with HustleRussell, it really is impossible to do in some modern cars.
I have used heel and toe on road and track for 20+ years and I couldn't do it in a Mondeo V6. The pedals were nicely spaced, the brake pedal firm enough, but throttle response was so dire it was hopeless. I found in the end that it was possible to press the accelerator fully to the floor and get back off it before the revs would rise significantly while the car was in neutral
We have a Citroen C1 and I modified the accelerator pedal to make it easier so my daughter could try heel and toe.
However, when I tried it out the brake was so sensitive that I found it only really became possible when standing on the brakes and driving like a loon.
So, have a go at heel and toe, you'll enjoy it when you get it right, BUT it is a lot easier to do in some cars than others (my Lotus Elan Sprint and Caterham were both easy).
I have used heel and toe on road and track for 20+ years and I couldn't do it in a Mondeo V6. The pedals were nicely spaced, the brake pedal firm enough, but throttle response was so dire it was hopeless. I found in the end that it was possible to press the accelerator fully to the floor and get back off it before the revs would rise significantly while the car was in neutral
We have a Citroen C1 and I modified the accelerator pedal to make it easier so my daughter could try heel and toe.
However, when I tried it out the brake was so sensitive that I found it only really became possible when standing on the brakes and driving like a loon.
So, have a go at heel and toe, you'll enjoy it when you get it right, BUT it is a lot easier to do in some cars than others (my Lotus Elan Sprint and Caterham were both easy).
If the car has very slow throttle response, it may be difficult to use a throttle blip technique to rev match; a different technique may work instead. It may well be possible instead to use a sustained rev approach. Unless you are braking really really hard you have plenty of time to change gear, so in the middle of the braking phase just hold the accelerator down until the revs are right for raising the clutch.
downsman said:
I found in the end that it was possible to press the accelerator fully to the floor and get back off it before the revs would rise significantly while the car was in neutral
That will possibly be partly for emissions. It would probably behave differently when in gear. There is no longer a set of carbs and a throttle cable under the bonnet. downsman said:
We have a Citroen C1 and I modified the accelerator pedal to make it easier so my daughter could try heel and toe.
However, when I tried it out the brake was so sensitive that I found it only really became possible when standing on the brakes and driving like a loon.
You probably just need to get used to it. However, when I tried it out the brake was so sensitive that I found it only really became possible when standing on the brakes and driving like a loon.
When I got my Mk4 Mondeo the sharpness of the brakes made heel & toe difficult initially, but with practice I go the hang of it. I presumably improved the sensitivity of my braking too.
My last hire car was a diesel Clio, that really made H&T a chore as the throttle response was so lethargic it was easier to just come off the brakes. The car didn't really lend itself to being driven hard anyway; seldom have I driven a car that was so unrewarding to rev.
I find a lot of the shopping trolley type of cars have the brake so high it makes H&T awkward unless you're feeling stamping on it. I'm yet to find one that was impossible though.
On the upside my current car is rather easy to H&T.
I find a lot of the shopping trolley type of cars have the brake so high it makes H&T awkward unless you're feeling stamping on it. I'm yet to find one that was impossible though.
On the upside my current car is rather easy to H&T.
robinessex said:
As an aside, is H&T required on a manual sequential box ? Never driven a car with one.
No, but it obviously helps with dynamic stability and mechanical sympathy, especially if it's wet. Note that if the car is manual sequential, then at least for a racing gearbox it would be normal to not use the clutch, so it wouldn't strictly be H&T, just rev matching.I can't claim to have mastered the heel and toe technique, partly as I have size 13 feet and have found getting the angle right is not easy.
But I got the hang of matching the revs for smooth down changes etc.
I actually started practicing this in my first Clio 172. I actually found it fairly easy but the throttle response was good. Much trickier in the Megane 225 that followed.
My Saab diesel is fairly easy to rev match as well. Certainly makes day to day driving smoother and has become second nature.
I assume when done right, rev matching reduces wear on the clutch/gearbox?
But I got the hang of matching the revs for smooth down changes etc.
I actually started practicing this in my first Clio 172. I actually found it fairly easy but the throttle response was good. Much trickier in the Megane 225 that followed.
My Saab diesel is fairly easy to rev match as well. Certainly makes day to day driving smoother and has become second nature.
I assume when done right, rev matching reduces wear on the clutch/gearbox?
Actually I do think it a good method and the results supported it.
What you have is someone who has a natural timing of gearchange and clutch engagement. It's not a question of rushing, it's that there is a timing that has been learnt. So you take that timing, and add something in with a simple mental stimulus. "Blip the throttle as you push through the gate".
The problem with blipping when the gear is selected before engaging the clutch is that you end up changing the timing of the whole sequence which actually makes things harder not easier.
As I said it's not about rushing, but I have found that artificially slowing the process makes it disjointed and harder, not easier.
Bert
What you have is someone who has a natural timing of gearchange and clutch engagement. It's not a question of rushing, it's that there is a timing that has been learnt. So you take that timing, and add something in with a simple mental stimulus. "Blip the throttle as you push through the gate".
The problem with blipping when the gear is selected before engaging the clutch is that you end up changing the timing of the whole sequence which actually makes things harder not easier.
As I said it's not about rushing, but I have found that artificially slowing the process makes it disjointed and harder, not easier.
Bert
anonymous said:
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I agree Bert. For me the blip, declutch and gearstick movement all happen together - and that for me is much simpler for my brain to automate than lots of separate actions. I hesitated to criticise though because I've H&Td all my driving life and have never taught anyone to do it, so I'm not that clear on the learning process and what helps it.
I've just had the use of a diesel Passat for this past week and I must say, despite several complaints regarding VAG cars having brakes overly assisted etc. it is probably one of the easiest cars I've had to heel and toe. The throttle does cut if you apply the brakes and accelerate at the same time however it would appear that when the clutch is depressed it does allow for a quick blip.
But we are not talking about older cars and their specific needs. I was specifically talking about new but competent drivers with modern gearboxes.
I understand the breaking down of the process into its component parts and rebuilding it. What I am saying though is that I have had a large degree of success showing 30+ sub-17 year olds how to add a blip into their gearchange without having to decompose it and rebuild it.
Your experience may be different, but I am only telling what I found to work!
Bert
I understand the breaking down of the process into its component parts and rebuilding it. What I am saying though is that I have had a large degree of success showing 30+ sub-17 year olds how to add a blip into their gearchange without having to decompose it and rebuild it.
Your experience may be different, but I am only telling what I found to work!
Bert
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I didn't get really smooth at HnT until I started double declutching as well - adding the clear neutral step into the middle helped me get the timing of when things are supposed to happen in my head (and muscle memory). I don't find it appreciably slower to do it that way in a road car either.
PhilUK said:
When I do this I don't heel/toe, I just remove my foot from the accelerator and reapply. Right, wrong, same thing?
The critical part is using the right foot to operate the brake and accelerator at the same time to avoid coming off the brakes while changing down and also rev matching the changes - are you doing that?Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff