Ease off to Overtake!

[DoubleSix]

Mini Spirit said:

carinaman said:

I'm not sure it applies today. I can't say I've ever seen it as a problem. My overtaking tends to allow me diagonal, vector like path to regain the correct side of the road.

After seeing this thread lastnight I chanced upon this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT7Qsg2tLDc

If not about understeer while overtaking it's a reminder about progressive, smooth throttle application and the reliance on grip and traction.

Wow expensive.

A wonderful language Italian...

[shielsy]

This is complete bks

[davepoth]

Mini Spirit said:

When overtaking, You should ease off as you pass, just enough to hold your speed. You don't want to be accelerating when you turn your wheel to pull in again because if you do you will under-steer more and it will take you longer to get in. I believe in easing off to pull
back into line even when there is something coming the other way
in the middle. "it's not a case of decelerating. You just hold the speed you're making. This may cost you a yard or so in actual forward movement but it gets you into a nearside lane faster and that more than makes up for it.

Taken from the Tom Wisdom book High Performance Driving.

Made sense in 1966. There were somewhere around half as many cars on the road as there are now - there were much bigger gaps in oncoming traffic. Added to that there was much less grip available from the cars and tyres of the day.

It also made more sense for a traditional RWD car, which are set up to understeer under light throttle. Lifting off suddenly in an old RWD car doesn't usually result in snap oversteer like it would in a hot hatch, since you adjust the line through a corner with more throttle not less. There are cars where easing off and turning at speed could result in a spin, which is much worse than a bit of understeer.

[ohtari]

Time exposed to danger.

I will be on the wrong side of the road for as little time as possible thank you very much. Correct gear, indicate, foot down. I agree with the vector statement as above, no sharp steering inputs to get you to one side or the other.

edit to add: This does not apply to the likes of that Ferrari video posted, he should have known better.

Edited by ohtari on Sunday 17th January 12:40

[waremark]

ohtari said:

Time exposed to danger.

I will be on the wrong side of the road for as little time as possible thank you very much. Correct gear, indicate, foot down.

Being on the other side of the road for as short a time as possible is often not the way to minimise danger. If overtaking from a following position in many cases it is best to move offside before accelerating, to take the decision from the offside position which may give the best view, and to accelerate from there. In a powerful car maximum acceleration may be unnecessary and indeed uncivil.

If coming up behind the target with a significant speed differential you can be exposed to danger on your own side of the road, as soon as you could not stop behind the target if he was to brake. Again, an earlier offside position and/or a lower speed differential may help.

The Ferrari driver accelerated too hard while also steering and had probably switched off the traction control. Tragic and unnecessary waste.

[DocSteve]

waremark said:

Being on the other side of the road for as short a time as possible is often not the way to minimise danger. If overtaking from a following position in many cases it is best to move offside before accelerating, to take the decision from the offside position which may give the best view, and to accelerate from there. In a powerful car maximum acceleration may be unnecessary and indeed uncivil.

If coming up behind the target with a significant speed differential you can be exposed to danger on your own side of the road, as soon as you could not stop behind the target if he was to brake. Again, an earlier offside position and/or a lower speed differential may help.

Very good advice here.
Steve

[RobM77]

DocSteve said:

waremark said:

Being on the other side of the road for as short a time as possible is often not the way to minimise danger. If overtaking from a following position in many cases it is best to move offside before accelerating, to take the decision from the offside position which may give the best view, and to accelerate from there. In a powerful car maximum acceleration may be unnecessary and indeed uncivil.

If coming up behind the target with a significant speed differential you can be exposed to danger on your own side of the road, as soon as you could not stop behind the target if he was to brake. Again, an earlier offside position and/or a lower speed differential may help.

Very good advice here.
Steve

It's about assessing the risk based on the visibility, the conditions and the road ahead. In many situations it may be safer to take longer overtaking something at a lower speed than it would be to rush past at a higher speed.

[DoubleSix]

RobM77 said:

DocSteve said:

waremark said:

Being on the other side of the road for as short a time as possible is often not the way to minimise danger. If overtaking from a following position in many cases it is best to move offside before accelerating, to take the decision from the offside position which may give the best view, and to accelerate from there. In a powerful car maximum acceleration may be unnecessary and indeed uncivil.

If coming up behind the target with a significant speed differential you can be exposed to danger on your own side of the road, as soon as you could not stop behind the target if he was to brake. Again, an earlier offside position and/or a lower speed differential may help.

Very good advice here.
Steve

It's about assessing the risk based on the visibility, the conditions and the road ahead. In many situations it may be safer to take longer overtaking something at a lower speed than it would be to rush past at a higher speed.

I do this a lot.

It also provides more time to assess if the driver you are about to over take has clocked your intentions.

You can see a degree of bafflement on behalf of the less mentally agile as you move across into the oncoming lane and hang back assess.

[RobM77]

DoubleSix said:

RobM77 said:

DocSteve said:

waremark said:

Being on the other side of the road for as short a time as possible is often not the way to minimise danger. If overtaking from a following position in many cases it is best to move offside before accelerating, to take the decision from the offside position which may give the best view, and to accelerate from there. In a powerful car maximum acceleration may be unnecessary and indeed uncivil.

If coming up behind the target with a significant speed differential you can be exposed to danger on your own side of the road, as soon as you could not stop behind the target if he was to brake. Again, an earlier offside position and/or a lower speed differential may help.

Very good advice here.
Steve

It's about assessing the risk based on the visibility, the conditions and the road ahead. In many situations it may be safer to take longer overtaking something at a lower speed than it would be to rush past at a higher speed.

I do this a lot.

It also provides more time to assess if the driver you are about to over take has clocked your intentions.

You can see a degree of bafflement on behalf of the less mentally agile as you move across into the oncoming lane and hang back assess.

This is especially important in a low powered car like mine because if the car you're overtaking suddenly accelerates, you'd rather it was at the moment you describe above than when you're most of the way past.

This is all academic for me now anyway, because after two bad road rage incidents last year I've pledged never to overtake anyone or anything, unless they're a cyclist, tractor, horse etc. In both cases last year I pulled off what I thought was a safe overtaking manoeuvre on a small van doing about 30mph in a 60mph limit. I didn't roar past, I did what we've just described and went past at perhaps 40-45mph. In both cases, the van sped up and followed me, flashing their lights. The first guy followed me home (I overshot for safety reasons and he followed me in circles around the lanes for five minutes afterwards until getting bored), and the second guy followed me for two miles and then sped past me in a 30 limit, screeched to a halt and lept out of his car ready to attack me and my car. Never again! I also now carry a dashcam, front and rear.

[Alex_225]

Unless you have 2,000bhp, knackered tires or pull back in front of the overtaken vehicle using huge steering inputs I can't imagine oversteer in this scenario is a concern for anyone.

I can honestly say, even as an inexperienced 17 year old, I never lost traction pulling back into a lane after overtaking haha.

[IIIRestorerIII]

So trying to understand the OP's original post. I think what they mean is if you ease off after you have passed the slow car you will be able to return into the correct lane earlier (so not understeer in the wheels skidding sense, but if you are still on the throttle you will be much further along the road by the time you are return to your lane).

[fatjon]

excellent advice when driving my TVR Cerbera but really pointless in 99.9% of vehicles.

[RobM77]

IIIRestorerIII said:

So trying to understand the OP's original post. I think what they mean is if you ease off after you have passed the slow car you will be able to return into the correct lane earlier (so not understeer in the wheels skidding sense, but if you are still on the throttle you will be much further along the road by the time you are return to your lane).

I don't mean to nit-pick, but there's a world of difference between "easing off" and being "off the throttle". I wouldn't recommend doing anything at all with the steering if you're off the throttle completely.

[BertBert]

Perhaps I've got this out of context, but that just plain confuses me.

RobM77 said:

I don't mean to nit-pick, but there's a world of difference between "easing off" and being "off the throttle". I wouldn't recommend doing anything at all with the steering if you're off the throttle completely.

[RobM77]

BertBert said:

Perhaps I've got this out of context, but that just plain confuses me.

RobM77 said:

I don't mean to nit-pick, but there's a world of difference between "easing off" and being "off the throttle". I wouldn't recommend doing anything at all with the steering if you're off the throttle completely.

Sorry, perhaps I should have explained more clearly. "Easing off" refers to a small reduction in throttle, for example 100% to 80% or 90% to 50%. This, as the OP's story says, will reduce the chance of weight transfer understeer or even loss of traction at the driven wheels and enable a safer change of lane in some circumstances (i.e. this will make a difference in a powerful car, or on a slippery road etc). I was nitpicking above when replying to IIIRestorerIII, but it's an important point: he equated this to being off the throttle by saying "if you are still on the throttle"... Being off the throttle completely is a very different thing to just easing off. Shutting the throttle is going to cause sudden weight transfer as well as engine braking at the driven wheels and you don't want to combine either of those with a change of direction (unless you're a stunt driver trying to do a 360!). Changes of direction and even sustained cornering should always be performed with the car balanced.

[carinaman]

I think tyre technology has probably moved on a lot from 1966.

[7db]

As Mark says above -- if you're worrying about grip when you pass the other driver, you're doing it wrong. You need to be worrying about vision and the actions of the target.

By the time I'm next to the target vehicle my speed and position choices are going to be determined by the next hazard. The overtake is done.

[RobM77]

Whilst I agree that this is a minor point (as everything is compared to observation and planning), I think that everything an 'advanced' driver does should be in sympathy to how much grip there is. It's a matter of principle. Grip is your safety margin and it's what you'll need to lean on should the worst happen, so it makes sense to me to maximise grip at all times by utilising techniques such as rev-matching, smooth steering, smooth braking, smooth acceleration and balancing the controls against each other. This shouldn't require much or any thought, which would detract from other more important aspects of driving, such as observation and planning, it should instead be second nature.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 25th January 16:35

[creampuff]

TurboHatchback said:

What a load of utter guff! I usually ease off as I'm going past as by the time I'm alongside I'm usually going gratuitously fast anyway and more speed is not required. Quite how understeer comes into the picture I don't know unless his daily driver is a Saab with 1000hp on Nankang specials.

Hahaha. Yes this.

By the time you are alongside you are going fast enough.

[Z.B]

Don't forget this was written 50 years ago when cars were less forgiving. Perfectly possible to get out of shape going over the crown of the road, and it still is, though it's more likely when moving out than moving in.

As it happens I think the advice sound, though for other reasons.

The best way is to establish a suitable speed differential asap, then consider reducing throttle, because....

people don't always like to be overtaken, but a courteous and apparently effortless overtake goes down better than a Mr Toad special, especially if you have a tasty exhaust.

Habitually leaving the taps open can lead to too much speed going into the next hazard and too little time to assess it.

Really the overtake should be well in the bag by the time you are alongside the target. So if you still feel the need for a death grip on the gas pedal you may be doing it wrong!