Tell me like it is!

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JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Sunday 17th January 2016
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I have uploaded a bit of web cam footage (first attempt, I hope it works!)

I'm looking for honest opinions on a near(ish) miss. I felt at the time I was in the right, and would welcome other people's views.

Two lane NSL DC, travelling at about 70 on the GPS (on cruise). Ahead there were other vehicles in lane 1 and a car pulling out onto the carriageway into lane 1, so I moved over into lane 2. Ahead of it was a van and ahead of that was a crane (with flashing lights). The crane was doing about 30ish (but this wasn't apparent before the incident, although the flashing lights did warn it was a possible hazard).

The van indicated right but didn't pull out into lane 2 as, I assume, he could see it wasn't safe to do so and he was braking as he approached the crane. I think the car was accelerating up to speed and not really looking forward and was caught out by the van braking and so pulled out in front of me rather than hit his own brakes, forcing me to brake hard and drop the speed from about 70 to about 40.

I'll take any criticism like a man smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRAzgyRGelQ

Just to clarify, at no time (until after I had safely passed the crane) did I accelerate although the video looks like I did as I approach the crane.

cat with a hat

1,484 posts

117 months

Sunday 17th January 2016
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You didn't do anything wrong, imo except brake a bit later than you could have?


AdamIndy

1,661 posts

103 months

Sunday 17th January 2016
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Just looks like a BMW driver being a BMW driver to me. Between them and Audi drivers, everyone else are just peasants.

Happens all the time, don't worry about it.

bitchstewie

50,767 posts

209 months

Sunday 17th January 2016
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The only thing I would say, and I won't say it's "wrong" is that I suspect the voice in your head was saying "That prat's going to pull out" and maybe expected it.

If I ever see a slow moving vehicle (tractor, JCB whatever) ahead I pretty much count on some knobber leaving it until the very last minute.

Also people joining NSL roads often seem to struggle with gauging speed. I find that all the time they join and immediately pull out to overtake something in lane 1 without getting a "feel" for the flow of traffic.

Tony1963

4,699 posts

161 months

Sunday 17th January 2016
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Without reading your explanation in your OP, I could guess exactly what was going to happen in the video. As mentioned above, just back off more and expect the worst. That way, instead of flashing your main beam at the driver for pulling out, you might have flashed them to let him pull out.

Hopefully the BMW driver has learnt something from this. Maybe not.

If you'd had an advanced driving examiner in your passenger seat, I think you'd have taken a different course of action to that in the (good quality) video.

dvenman

219 posts

114 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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About the only thing I'd say is that having correctly judged it, and given yourself room to avoid rear-ending the BMW by anticipating his movement, your use of main beam was "unnecessary". By the time he's in front of you, too late to warn him...

The only thing I've have done is say "what a cock" to myself, and leave them in my rear view mirror.

DocSteve

718 posts

221 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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You avoided an accident and you are here asking for advice as to how to manage it better, which is a mark of a good driver in my book.

If you don't mind feedback (with the benefit of armchair YouTube):

- When you saw the flashing lights, where did you think the associated vehicle was travelling/parked? If you thought it was or might be in lane 1 then you should expect any vehicle approaching it to move into your lane. Even if it was clear to you it was off the road (or you thought it was at the time, as you allude to) then a driver may decide to move over either out of courtesy or due to a hazard you cannot see e.g. a worker in the road. In any event, expect your lane to be obstructed in some way.

- I don't know what was behind you at the time. This is important in planning; if there was nothing behind at the time then a slightly more "optimistic" approach (as you displayed) may not be unreasonable as long as you are sure you can avoid a hazard such as that described above. If there is something following you then I would suggest slowing more gradually on seeing the possible hazard; you may end up having a rear end collision if not careful. If you are driving someone, especially in a limo or similar, then adopt the same approach as if someone is following you.


Steve

Dixy

2,913 posts

204 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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Interesting question and the sign of an advanced driver that you think that was not perfect what can I learn. I use cruise a lot but one of its weaknesses is it cant see developing hazards and lift in case of knobbish behavior which you probably would have done subliminally, so possibly press the cancel button earlier.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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As others have said, when the 1 series kept its indicator on after it joined the DC, I'd have smelt a rat and immediately hovered my foot over the brake ready to slow immediately if he pulled out. That way you'd have been much earlier on the brakes when he did move across. I'm assuming that your feet were elsewhere due to the cruise control because of how long it took you to react?

I don't think there's anything wrong with maintaining your speed and being decisive, as it avoids promoting indecision from other drivers (and yourself), but you should always be ready for what might happen, because it's the unexpected that causes accidents. To be honest, I hover over the brake ready to slow if someone's approaching a lorry in this situation whether they're indicating or not. If they are indicating, I would definitely be ready to brake hard if necessary.

ORD

18,086 posts

126 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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It was absolutely obvious that the BMW would want to pull out. What else was he going to do? Sit behind the slow-moving vehicle? Nope. He was going to pull out, and you must have known that if you were paying attention.

So why not just ease off and allow him across instead of ploughing on and becoming involved in an "incident"?

I think you felt that you had "right of way" or it was "your lane" and so werent going to do the BMW any favours by just lifting off.

Cruise control probably played a part here. It really encourages the "I wont slow down for anyone" mentality. I dont use it for that reason - it makes me a worse driver because I become attached to a particular speed rather than constantly adjusting to suit the situation.

JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Monday 18th January 2016
quotequote all
Thanks for the replies.

I am an advanced driver (Paramedic). My mindset at work is to use reflective practice for incidences and I extend this to my personal life. In this incident I wanted to know if there was anything I could have done differently.

The dashcam has a wide angle lens, so things were a lot closer than they look in the video.

I was on cruise but as I approached this hazard I did indeed have my foot over the brakes just in case. Nothing close behind me.

So my options were:

1/ Go faster (no one I think is going to say that would have been a good idea!)
2/ Stay the same speed
3/ Slow down.

My theory for staying the same speed was the traffic ahead could/should/would see I was approaching at a speed higher than them and so stay in lane 1. It worked for the van. I wasn't going to flash my lights to warn of my approach as this might have been misunderstood as to come on out.

Slow down. If you watch the video it is about 2 second from when the car joins lane 1 to him pulling out into lane 2. What I was hoping would happen was he would see it wasn't safe to pull out, cancel his indicator and wait until I'd gone past. If I have slowed down, and he had seen that, he might/would have taken that as an indication to pull out.

For me to slow down enough for him to come safely out would have meant me slowing from 70 to 40 in a few seconds: heavy braking: and then of course he might have stayed in lane 1 which would have confused the situation.

Finally, the main bean flash. Forgive me for being human, I did want the other driver to know of the danger of what he just did. And he was a knob!

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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If you did have your foot over the brake ready, then your speed profile seems very unusual to me. I assume you weren't trying to scare him by leaving your braking really late? Perhaps it's the wide angle lens, but it looks to me like not much happens at first, almost like you're not reacting at all, and then your deceleration rate rapidly increases over time, rather than being nice and linear from the start. This is why I assumed that you didn't have your foot handy.

fatjon

2,143 posts

212 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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ORD said:
It was absolutely obvious that the BMW would want to pull out. What else was he going to do? Sit behind the slow-moving vehicle? Nope. He was going to pull out, and you must have known that if you were paying attention.

So why not just ease off and allow him across instead of ploughing on and becoming involved in an "incident"?

I think you felt that you had "right of way" or it was "your lane" and so werent going to do the BMW any favours by just lifting off.

Cruise control probably played a part here. It really encourages the "I wont slow down for anyone" mentality. I dont use it for that reason - it makes me a worse driver because I become attached to a particular speed rather than constantly adjusting to suit the situation.
This^

Hackney

6,810 posts

207 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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fatjon said:
ORD said:
It was absolutely obvious that the BMW would want to pull out. What else was he going to do? Sit behind the slow-moving vehicle? Nope. He was going to pull out, and you must have known that if you were paying attention.

So why not just ease off and allow him across instead of ploughing on and becoming involved in an "incident"?

I think you felt that you had "right of way" or it was "your lane" and so werent going to do the BMW any favours by just lifting off.

Cruise control probably played a part here. It really encourages the "I wont slow down for anyone" mentality. I dont use it for that reason - it makes me a worse driver because I become attached to a particular speed rather than constantly adjusting to suit the situation.
This^
I'm heartened that the "obvious" thing these days is that someone is going to pull out without looking. It should be obvious that the BMW driver would see the hazard in front, the car approaching and slow down.

The same as it should've been obvious to the bloke who crossed the central line, driving straight at me, to overtake a cyclist that he should have waited until the other carriageway was clear. But then waiting is a lot of things, but it's not the "obvious" thing to do any more.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 18th January 2016
quotequote all
ORD said:
It was absolutely obvious that the BMW would want to pull out. What else was he going to do? Sit behind the slow-moving vehicle? Nope. He was going to pull out, and you must have known that if you were paying attention.

So why not just ease off and allow him across instead of ploughing on and becoming involved in an "incident"?

I think you felt that you had "right of way" or it was "your lane" and so werent going to do the BMW any favours by just lifting off.

Cruise control probably played a part here. It really encourages the "I wont slow down for anyone" mentality. I dont use it for that reason - it makes me a worse driver because I become attached to a particular speed rather than constantly adjusting to suit the situation.
This, with bloody bells on.

Honestly, OP, do you not cringe when you watch that?

Torquey

1,888 posts

227 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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Not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but this is what I'd have done:
13 seconds - I'd have eased off a little as there looks to be some hazard ahead. Plan to drop to 60-65.
25 seconds - change lanes, rather than at 11 seconds.
26 seconds - assume the BMW is definitely going to need "your lane" and match their speed, rather than at 29 seconds.

Piersman2

6,596 posts

198 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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Obviously with arm chair hindsight, but still based on how I drive....

I don't use cruise as I find it tends to make me want to avoid touching the brakes or lifting off until later than I would otherwise.

So, in your situation I'd have been lifting off when the flashing lights came into view, then lifting off a bit more when the car came down the ramp indicating, and then I'd have been onto the brakes earlier and more gently once the car came across infront of me.

I'd have driven up behind them (close, but not tail-gaiting to make it clear I wanted passed) and then waited for them to pass the flashing lorry to see if they were going to pull over. I wouldn't have flashed.

The scene played out in your video is one I see several times every time I go up or down the M40, people will pull across to pass slower vehicles and you just have to anticipate and expect them to do so. Barrelling up behind them and flashing lights is unnecessary in my book.

JumboBeef

Original Poster:

3,772 posts

176 months

Monday 18th January 2016
quotequote all
ORD said:
So why not just ease off and allow him across instead of ploughing on and becoming involved in an "incident"?
Can I just remind folks that I was doing 70, the speed limit for the road, and so was everyone else (apart from the crane, van and car).

So for me to "ease off" I would have had to drop at least 30mph and that is not "easing off", it is a decent amount of braking (as possibly more, I passed the crane at 40mph and I was going quite a bit quicker than him, so maybe I would have had to drop from 70 to under 30 to match the crane, a very heavy braking manoeuvre).

If I have eased off say 10mph then he would have (IMHO) being more likely to pull out in front of me, which would still have meant heavy braking.

Also, I don't think it is fair to say it was "obvious" that he was going to pull out into lane 2. Many many people join DCs/motorways and slow to the speed of the traffic on lane 1 until it is safe to pull out into lane 2.

Indicators mean "I would like to come out" not "I'm coming out, ready or not". There are many good drivers (like the van who stayed in lane 1). However, I know we have to accept some drivers haven't got a clue.......

I'm sitting here thinking I could have eased off a bit in the last two seconds before he pulled out............but what if he was timing his move out into lane 2 so he'd move over just as I went past, in which case me slowing might have meant he would have pulled out before I had cleared him?

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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JumboBeef said:
Can I just remind folks that I was doing 70, the speed limit for the road, and so was everyone else (apart from the crane, van and car).
That's nice, dear.

Still, I think we're getting an insight into the mindset that caused the situation...

dvenman

219 posts

114 months

Monday 18th January 2016
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JumboBeef said:
Indicators mean "I would like to come out" not "I'm coming out, ready or not"
That's what they should mean...the man on the Clapham Omnibus generally uses them as a "here I come"!