1st very powerful car
Discussion
Alex said:
Nigel_O said:
Almost nothing you learn on track will transfer comfortably to any road situation
Totally disagree with this.
Loads of track skills are transferable to road driving. Track driving is about creating as high a limit for the car as possible and if you do that on the road but stay at legal speeds then your margin for safety will be a lot higher than someone with no car control experience. Put another way, if Jenson Button could take a corner in a car at 60mph when a 'normal' driver could only manage 45, then when driving at 35mph in traffic, JB will have a much larger margin of safety - simple. The other thing is obvious and that's if a mistake is made or a diesel spill or patch of ice is hit, a good track driver will be a lot safer than someone with very little 'limit' experience. The whole principle of advanced driving is to avoid these situations, but it does happen from time to time, especially at this time of year.However, the much bigger part of advanced driving with regard to safety is around observation and planning, not limit control.
I also disagree with the margin of safety argument assuming it's based on skid risk as well - but I feel we'v argued that one before as well!
However I do agree that the experience of using all the power of the Boxster on track will be helpful for road use.
BErt
I also disagree with the margin of safety argument assuming it's based on skid risk as well - but I feel we'v argued that one before as well!
However I do agree that the experience of using all the power of the Boxster on track will be helpful for road use.
BErt
Oh yes, given a limited amount of time a road driver is always better off learning classic IAM observation based techniques. To suggest that track experience is not beneficial is rather short sighted though. Imagine Ben Ainslie operating a pleasure cruiser - his skills are not needed in that environment, but he can't help but be better at it than the average guy would be.
RobM77 said:
Oh yes, given a limited amount of time a road driver is always better off learning classic IAM observation based techniques. To suggest that track experience is not beneficial is rather short sighted though. Imagine Ben Ainslie operating a pleasure cruiser - his skills are not needed in that environment, but he can't help but be better at it than the average guy would be.
I've always been of the opinion that drivers should really explore the limits of their cars on track / skid pan. Why? Because there can be a time when you drive onto a diesel spill / snow / ice etc - and without having been taught the basics of what to do, things are going to go wrong. Controlling a skid really isn't that difficult, once you've been taught (except in an early SWB 911, ask me how I know!). Unfortunately our basic 'L' test doesn't cover this - the only real emergency condition covered by the 'L' test is an emergency stop, which isn't the biggest drama with ABS fitted to just about everything on the road. You only have to see what happens in the UK when we get 5mm of snow on the roads to realise the the 'L' test training is painfully inadequate at preparing people for driving with reduced levels of grip. Personally, I'd like to see something like 'skid recovery', say 2 hours on a skid pan, as a mandatory part of driver training for the 'L' test.Apparently the Swedish experience of compulsory skid training was to increase rather than reduce accident risk. Confidence increased ahead of ability to cope with a loss of control situation.
I can imagine the same thing occurring with track driving. Early track driving experience may encourage use of more of the car's performance envelope (all of acceleration, braking and cornering) without doing much to improve judgement or skill. This is not to disagree that good track driving skills are relevant to the road - just to say that you may not acquire them on your first couple of track days.
By all means enjoy skid training or a track day, but accept that the main benefit is fun not safety.
I can imagine the same thing occurring with track driving. Early track driving experience may encourage use of more of the car's performance envelope (all of acceleration, braking and cornering) without doing much to improve judgement or skill. This is not to disagree that good track driving skills are relevant to the road - just to say that you may not acquire them on your first couple of track days.
By all means enjoy skid training or a track day, but accept that the main benefit is fun not safety.
james_gt3rs said:
A Boxster has loads of grip and traction control, you'd have to drive like an utter loon to make it slide on the road surely?
This is true. But what this means is that when you finally push it to the point where all that grip can hang on no more and the Traction Control can no longer defy the laws of physics you will be in a world of s
t at enormously high speed.I have only ever pushed mine to this point on track but it was definitely worth doing just to see HOW MUCH road the car needs to rescue you from your own stupidity. Copse corner, Silverstone, in the wet. Thank god for PSM. Didn't quite need the gravel.
waremark said:
Apparently the Swedish experience of compulsory skid training was to increase rather than reduce accident risk. Confidence increased ahead of ability to cope with a loss of control situation.
I can imagine the same thing occurring with track driving. Early track driving experience may encourage use of more of the car's performance envelope (all of acceleration, braking and cornering) without doing much to improve judgement or skill. This is not to disagree that good track driving skills are relevant to the road - just to say that you may not acquire them on your first couple of track days.
By all means enjoy skid training or a track day, but accept that the main benefit is fun not safety.
As with anything like this, it ultimately comes down to attitude and awareness. Track experience and ability will always be a positive, but as you say, it can bring a negative with it in terms of desensitisation to speed and over confidence - the key is to take the positives to the road and have a good enough attitude to hold back the negatives.I can imagine the same thing occurring with track driving. Early track driving experience may encourage use of more of the car's performance envelope (all of acceleration, braking and cornering) without doing much to improve judgement or skill. This is not to disagree that good track driving skills are relevant to the road - just to say that you may not acquire them on your first couple of track days.
By all means enjoy skid training or a track day, but accept that the main benefit is fun not safety.
Crippo said:
I wouldn't describe a Boxter as very powerful or massively quick. The ability of the driver doesn't improve with a change in car and I see no reason why you can't enjoy it without extra training. Just drive it and enjoy it. Go fast or slow or your skills will grow.
Not many years ago 371 bhp and 0 - 60 in the low 4's would certainly have been considered very powerful and fast - how quickly things change!I have not driven the Spyder. The GT4 which uses the same engine albeit with 9 more bhp is a fabulous road car.
In my opinion professional training will help you enjoy it more.
Alex said:
Nigel_O said:
Almost nothing you learn on track will transfer comfortably to any road situation
Totally disagree with this.They have truly excellent instructors there (they call them driving consultants) and you will come away with a far greater knowledge of what your new Porsche can and cannot do in all types of road condition (The braking capability is particularly spectacular)
All the above will greatly increase your confidence in the car on the road, and your enjoyment of it.
Edited by Pan Pan Pan on Monday 21st March 08:54
RobM77 said:
That's a great idea. I completely forgot about the Silverstone centre when I posted. Whilst I can see some advantage of doing driving training in one's own car, like many of these courses/ events they are not exactly cheap, but the Porsche Experience does at least have the advantage of supplying you with a new / newish (of your choice) Porsche to drive, which for quite a few of us, is a great experience in itself.
`Some' driving courses when done in one`s own car `seem' a bit pricey by comparison.
My problem, was that with so much excellent info being given to me, whilst at the same time trying to control (someone else`s) expensive car at high speed, or in extreme situations, it was that it was like the instructor trying to squeeze an enormous marshmallow into a tiny money box! I would have to say that in my case, most of my concentration was taken up just trying to keep the thing under control.
But thinking hard about what was said, and done after the event, did have a beneficial impact, with perhaps the best part coming away knowing much better how to stay loose (rather than freezing) when the car did something unexpected. The only problem it that it was seriously addictive, so when I have enough pennies available, I will be down there again
The last Boxster I saw stationery on the M1 was one that had hit a river running diagonally across the road on a downhill, curved section just after a cloudburst.
Driver had lost control, hit the central armco hard with the front end and had ended up hitting the armco on the hard shoulder with the other end of the car.
I think it was the lighter weight of the car that was the problem - my heavy old front wheel drive Saab just ploughed through the river with very little deviation.
My TVR is similarly harder to control in downpour conditions than my Saab due to the lack of weight of the car. And the less rain-focussed tyres too.
Do enjoy your new car in dry conditions, just use your years of common sense in very wet conditions, and your right foot as traction control.
Driver had lost control, hit the central armco hard with the front end and had ended up hitting the armco on the hard shoulder with the other end of the car.
I think it was the lighter weight of the car that was the problem - my heavy old front wheel drive Saab just ploughed through the river with very little deviation.
My TVR is similarly harder to control in downpour conditions than my Saab due to the lack of weight of the car. And the less rain-focussed tyres too.
Do enjoy your new car in dry conditions, just use your years of common sense in very wet conditions, and your right foot as traction control.
Alex said:
Nigel_O said:
Almost nothing you learn on track will transfer comfortably to any road situation
Totally disagree with this.I was trying to point out that track tuition is about going as fast as the car will go - discovering limits, taking racing lines, braking later and also how the car behaves when it reaches or exceeds the limits. Its about maximising speed (or more accurately, minimising time) at any given time.
the only aspect that might transfer to normal road driving is what to do if the limit is breached - eg how to get through an oversteer moment, caused not by speed, but by unexpected road conditions (eg diesel on a wet roundabout)
However, the best suggestion by far is made above - IAM tuition. I took my IAM test on 2001 when I got my first decently powerful car (Fiat Coupe 20VT) and found that despite years on bikes, my observation wasn't as good as I thought it was. I ended up feeling much safer at all speeds. I'm now running a much faster car (still a Coupe 20VT, but with more than double the power) and I find that 15 year later, I'm still applying the techniques I was taught way back.
Whilst the Boxster isn't a "very" powerful car, its all relative and is still a quick car that can get an inexperienced driver into all sorts of bother - the OP should be applauded for the foresight shown by seeking PH'ers suggestions.
Get the right IAM instructors and its not all about double de-clutching and hands at ten-to-two - many are petrolheads, who want to see like-minded individuals enjoy their chosen vehicle without becoming another sad statistic
And for the OP - once you've got better on the road though some road-driving training, get onto a trackday and rag the arse off it - great fun and it WILL teach you loads - just don't try and use what you've learned on the road afterwards
As I covered in my earlier post, that's not the whole story about track tuition and track ability and it's the bits you're missing out that translate so well to road driving.
The main point of track driving is to learn how to control the car to create a high 'limit' for yourself and then to maintain it. So on a given corner, an experienced and capable track driver may have a 'limit' quite a bit higher than an ordinary road driver (or advanced, because with the current IAM/Police/RoSPA syllabus it'd make no difference in dynamic terms), and when the car driven by experienced track hands reaches the limit it will do so in a more progressive, predictable and balanced way. This is why when you watch someone like Jenson Button driving it looks so serene and calm. All that's on the track, however having a higher limit is obviously safer on the road, if you have the self control to stay at a lower speed, and keeping the car in a more balanced state is beneficial if something should happen that cause you to reach the 'limit' - i.e. oil on the road, a deer runs out on a corner etc.
The only negative that comes from track ability and experience is over-confidence. The actual skills learnt transfer wonderfully to good road driving.
The main point of track driving is to learn how to control the car to create a high 'limit' for yourself and then to maintain it. So on a given corner, an experienced and capable track driver may have a 'limit' quite a bit higher than an ordinary road driver (or advanced, because with the current IAM/Police/RoSPA syllabus it'd make no difference in dynamic terms), and when the car driven by experienced track hands reaches the limit it will do so in a more progressive, predictable and balanced way. This is why when you watch someone like Jenson Button driving it looks so serene and calm. All that's on the track, however having a higher limit is obviously safer on the road, if you have the self control to stay at a lower speed, and keeping the car in a more balanced state is beneficial if something should happen that cause you to reach the 'limit' - i.e. oil on the road, a deer runs out on a corner etc.
The only negative that comes from track ability and experience is over-confidence. The actual skills learnt transfer wonderfully to good road driving.
In a practical sense I don't think that is so. The creation of any additional safety margin can only be based on an ability to maximise the use of the width of the road to create a racing line as it were. With a normal carriageway that's pretty limited.
The safety benefit from observation and planning must be far higher?
Yes I agree that understanding of lines and vehicle dynamics is a benefit. Just not a very big one.
Bert
The safety benefit from observation and planning must be far higher?
Yes I agree that understanding of lines and vehicle dynamics is a benefit. Just not a very big one.
Bert
I rate http://www.carlimits.com - a 4 person airfield training day (220 quid) rather than an activity day, though they look to be booked up til July. As above, people also speak highly of CAT driver training, but I haven't used them.
At carlimits there is loads of space, only one car is moving at a time, and a 4 person day gives you more than enough driving time. The most useful part of the day IMHO is the high speed bend, where you can experiment without fear of hitting anything, and among other things you learn what not to do, what it feels like when you do it, and how to deal with it.
It's definitely better not to get into that kind of situation, but it's worth knowing how to deal with it if it does... If the first time the back end steps out is on a wet road/roundabout, it's almost certainly going to end badly!
Enjoy the car, they're lovely looking things.
At carlimits there is loads of space, only one car is moving at a time, and a 4 person day gives you more than enough driving time. The most useful part of the day IMHO is the high speed bend, where you can experiment without fear of hitting anything, and among other things you learn what not to do, what it feels like when you do it, and how to deal with it.
It's definitely better not to get into that kind of situation, but it's worth knowing how to deal with it if it does... If the first time the back end steps out is on a wet road/roundabout, it's almost certainly going to end badly!
Enjoy the car, they're lovely looking things.
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