Cornering Video
Discussion
Reg Local said:
I've never tested for RoADAR, but I have for the IAM and I'd be perfectly happy if a candidate used the full width of the road where it was safe and appropriate.
Having said that, please bear in mind that these videos are essentially my own take on "advanced" driving. They stick to the basic Roadcraft principles, but they also include my own interpretations, explanations and advice. They can be used as an accompaniment to a course of instruction or observation, but you should always be guided by your own observer, instructor or examiner when it comes to preperation for test day.
I've had four sessions with RoADAR since we last spoke Reg (did you get my Xmas email about meeting up again?), and they've told me to put in for my test. I have offsided for corners on all my outings and received compliments for it on my feedback sheet. Apparently they (RoADAR) approved of offsiding for years, then had a short time of not 'allowing' it, but they once again encourage it. Changes in leadership, perhaps? Having said that, please bear in mind that these videos are essentially my own take on "advanced" driving. They stick to the basic Roadcraft principles, but they also include my own interpretations, explanations and advice. They can be used as an accompaniment to a course of instruction or observation, but you should always be guided by your own observer, instructor or examiner when it comes to preperation for test day.
Really good, clear video with nice commentary Reg!
I'd say the thing i notice most about "modern" driving is that good driving, with system and thought is now so rare, that the technique such good driving relies upon (such as using both sides of the road where safe to improve visibility and/or stability) actually seem to be abnormal.
99.9% of drivers i see day to day simply closely follow the car ahead without thought or positive action. In effect, the only person driving is the person at the front of the queue! (And they are generally the very cause of the queue and hence not really the person you would put in-charge of this "train of ignorance"......)
One example, the other day i was following a lorry, which had 3 cars, extremely close behind it. The lorry was doing around 35 to 40mph on a de-restricted wide, clear straight bit of A road. Staying back i could see past those cars, and see that a good safe overtake was on, and i exectuted that overtake promptly and decisively.
However, two of the cars following the lorry regarded that overtake as being "crazy" and i received a mad flashing of lights from one car, and a couple of horn honks from the other! Of course, from their position, rammed up the ass of the massive truck, pulling out and overtaking would have been crazy, with zero visibility and no room for maneuver or change of plan etc. As such, their very driving system (or lack of one) had turned a good, safe overtake into a "dangerous" one, even though the only difference was road position and observation (and attitude ;-) )
I also find that other drivers do not consider anything but how and what they drive. For example, there are plenty of cases where overtaking properly in modern high performance car is a whole world of different from doing the same overtake in a low performance car (especially when that car is also in the wrong gear and un-prepared for the overtake due to a lack of forward planning).
On an odd occasion i have had the person being overtaken actually brake to "help" me overtake, because they don't think the overtake could be completed safely, simply because they are just used to driving a 75bhp/100Nm SUV in the wrong gear. In that case, the actual passing speed can seem to be totally ridiculous/excessive, as they panic and jam on the brakes, loose 30mph, whilst i've just gained 50mph!!
What this random rambling on my part highlights is that it's become as important to consider how other people drive as how one drives oneself, and especially how ones driving is seen by other, less skilled, less observant drivers. Because everyone drives, everyone thinks they are good at it (or "above average"). And yet very few average drivers can see that training, skills and attitude can make a massive difference in the real world risk of any particular scenario.
I'd say the thing i notice most about "modern" driving is that good driving, with system and thought is now so rare, that the technique such good driving relies upon (such as using both sides of the road where safe to improve visibility and/or stability) actually seem to be abnormal.
99.9% of drivers i see day to day simply closely follow the car ahead without thought or positive action. In effect, the only person driving is the person at the front of the queue! (And they are generally the very cause of the queue and hence not really the person you would put in-charge of this "train of ignorance"......)
One example, the other day i was following a lorry, which had 3 cars, extremely close behind it. The lorry was doing around 35 to 40mph on a de-restricted wide, clear straight bit of A road. Staying back i could see past those cars, and see that a good safe overtake was on, and i exectuted that overtake promptly and decisively.
However, two of the cars following the lorry regarded that overtake as being "crazy" and i received a mad flashing of lights from one car, and a couple of horn honks from the other! Of course, from their position, rammed up the ass of the massive truck, pulling out and overtaking would have been crazy, with zero visibility and no room for maneuver or change of plan etc. As such, their very driving system (or lack of one) had turned a good, safe overtake into a "dangerous" one, even though the only difference was road position and observation (and attitude ;-) )
I also find that other drivers do not consider anything but how and what they drive. For example, there are plenty of cases where overtaking properly in modern high performance car is a whole world of different from doing the same overtake in a low performance car (especially when that car is also in the wrong gear and un-prepared for the overtake due to a lack of forward planning).
On an odd occasion i have had the person being overtaken actually brake to "help" me overtake, because they don't think the overtake could be completed safely, simply because they are just used to driving a 75bhp/100Nm SUV in the wrong gear. In that case, the actual passing speed can seem to be totally ridiculous/excessive, as they panic and jam on the brakes, loose 30mph, whilst i've just gained 50mph!!
What this random rambling on my part highlights is that it's become as important to consider how other people drive as how one drives oneself, and especially how ones driving is seen by other, less skilled, less observant drivers. Because everyone drives, everyone thinks they are good at it (or "above average"). And yet very few average drivers can see that training, skills and attitude can make a massive difference in the real world risk of any particular scenario.
The majority of the driving that I see is so bad that I don't consider the driver safe to be on the roads. No attention. No planning. No awareness of what is around them. Following far too closely. It's terrifying when you see how late people notice an ambulance coming up behind them with full siren and lights! Must be pretty much asleep at the wheel.
Max_Torque said:
Really good, clear video with nice commentary Reg!
I'd say the thing i notice most about "modern" driving is that good driving, with system and thought is now so rare, that the technique such good driving relies upon (such as using both sides of the road where safe to improve visibility and/or stability) actually seem to be abnormal.
99.9% of drivers i see day to day simply closely follow the car ahead without thought or positive action. In effect, the only person driving is the person at the front of the queue! (And they are generally the very cause of the queue and hence not really the person you would put in-charge of this "train of ignorance"......)
One example, the other day i was following a lorry, which had 3 cars, extremely close behind it. The lorry was doing around 35 to 40mph on a de-restricted wide, clear straight bit of A road. Staying back i could see past those cars, and see that a good safe overtake was on, and i exectuted that overtake promptly and decisively.
However, two of the cars following the lorry regarded that overtake as being "crazy" and i received a mad flashing of lights from one car, and a couple of horn honks from the other! Of course, from their position, rammed up the ass of the massive truck, pulling out and overtaking would have been crazy, with zero visibility and no room for maneuver or change of plan etc. As such, their very driving system (or lack of one) had turned a good, safe overtake into a "dangerous" one, even though the only difference was road position and observation (and attitude ;-) )
I also find that other drivers do not consider anything but how and what they drive. For example, there are plenty of cases where overtaking properly in modern high performance car is a whole world of different from doing the same overtake in a low performance car (especially when that car is also in the wrong gear and un-prepared for the overtake due to a lack of forward planning).
On an odd occasion i have had the person being overtaken actually brake to "help" me overtake, because they don't think the overtake could be completed safely, simply because they are just used to driving a 75bhp/100Nm SUV in the wrong gear. In that case, the actual passing speed can seem to be totally ridiculous/excessive, as they panic and jam on the brakes, loose 30mph, whilst i've just gained 50mph!!
What this random rambling on my part highlights is that it's become as important to consider how other people drive as how one drives oneself, and especially how ones driving is seen by other, less skilled, less observant drivers. Because everyone drives, everyone thinks they are good at it (or "above average"). And yet very few average drivers can see that training, skills and attitude can make a massive difference in the real world risk of any particular scenario.
This is why I go out first thing in the morning and I have the roads to myself. Absolute bliss. I can usually be found somewhere in Wales on a Sunday morning at 6 or 7am. The dullards are asleep.I'd say the thing i notice most about "modern" driving is that good driving, with system and thought is now so rare, that the technique such good driving relies upon (such as using both sides of the road where safe to improve visibility and/or stability) actually seem to be abnormal.
99.9% of drivers i see day to day simply closely follow the car ahead without thought or positive action. In effect, the only person driving is the person at the front of the queue! (And they are generally the very cause of the queue and hence not really the person you would put in-charge of this "train of ignorance"......)
One example, the other day i was following a lorry, which had 3 cars, extremely close behind it. The lorry was doing around 35 to 40mph on a de-restricted wide, clear straight bit of A road. Staying back i could see past those cars, and see that a good safe overtake was on, and i exectuted that overtake promptly and decisively.
However, two of the cars following the lorry regarded that overtake as being "crazy" and i received a mad flashing of lights from one car, and a couple of horn honks from the other! Of course, from their position, rammed up the ass of the massive truck, pulling out and overtaking would have been crazy, with zero visibility and no room for maneuver or change of plan etc. As such, their very driving system (or lack of one) had turned a good, safe overtake into a "dangerous" one, even though the only difference was road position and observation (and attitude ;-) )
I also find that other drivers do not consider anything but how and what they drive. For example, there are plenty of cases where overtaking properly in modern high performance car is a whole world of different from doing the same overtake in a low performance car (especially when that car is also in the wrong gear and un-prepared for the overtake due to a lack of forward planning).
On an odd occasion i have had the person being overtaken actually brake to "help" me overtake, because they don't think the overtake could be completed safely, simply because they are just used to driving a 75bhp/100Nm SUV in the wrong gear. In that case, the actual passing speed can seem to be totally ridiculous/excessive, as they panic and jam on the brakes, loose 30mph, whilst i've just gained 50mph!!
What this random rambling on my part highlights is that it's become as important to consider how other people drive as how one drives oneself, and especially how ones driving is seen by other, less skilled, less observant drivers. Because everyone drives, everyone thinks they are good at it (or "above average"). And yet very few average drivers can see that training, skills and attitude can make a massive difference in the real world risk of any particular scenario.
Great video I tend to use all of the road up to the centre line, living In the south east the amount of traffic tends to prevent full use of the road, also when I did my RoADAR my observers informed me at that time that ''crossing white lines'' was frowned upon though this was sometime ago and I let my membership slip so had no retests. I can't remember the IAM's view on this when I took that it was even longer ago. One point though the Wagon R ''Good lad 70 in an NSL'' Surely that was a single carriageway? That said it's always good to see someone enjoying whatever they drive underpowered cars can be a good challenge for progress smoothness and carrying speed is the secret. Apart from my Caterham most of the cars I drive are thus.
DocSteve - Personally, I tend to avoid using the offside if it could cause confusion for an oncoming vehicle. I reckon third party perception is important.
Edited by SVS on Wednesday 30th March 20:03
Just popped in to mention how much I have learned from Reg and Vonhosen over the years - and from all of the Trafpols who have given up hours to help and encourage me and the IAM group ...not totally selfish ...did seven years as Senior Observer with IAM.
Regarding cornering in general - including offsiding - balance - anyone watching me? - Saturday I did my seventh RoSPA test - one Silver in 2000 and six Golds - I think the most important things I mentioned to the examiner were...quite simply...SPEED to VISION at all times and MIRRORS MIRRORS MIRRORS.
Shaved several twisties - told Paul what I was intending - positioning for view...balance...safety...
When you get it right you feel it in your arse...
BOF
Regarding cornering in general - including offsiding - balance - anyone watching me? - Saturday I did my seventh RoSPA test - one Silver in 2000 and six Golds - I think the most important things I mentioned to the examiner were...quite simply...SPEED to VISION at all times and MIRRORS MIRRORS MIRRORS.
Shaved several twisties - told Paul what I was intending - positioning for view...balance...safety...
When you get it right you feel it in your arse...
BOF
Nice video and commentary I agree with a lot of what you say / do. However I would like to make a observation.
I'm all for using all of the road that's available if it is safe. However for eg near the start of the video approx 3.30 in you are straddling the white line when you have absolutely nothing to gain from doing so. The road is wide, vision is very good on that road its little more the a slight curve.
I see other points in the video when are more of the tight twisting roads, You move out a short distance before a left hander onto the other side of the road before you start to turn in. What real gain are you getting from a couple of seconds being 2ft wider ?
In both situations you have crossed the line and as you stated in the video these are cambered roads. You have moved over for essentially the right reasons.
My question is has what you gained by moving over out weighed what you have lost ?
My answer would be no, you are moving onto the other side of the road in most instances im talking about by a few feet. In reality all you have really archived is to unsettle the car crossing the camber, cats eyes and raised white lines and in a very slow motion exaggerated kinda way doing a Scandinavian flick into the corner. Obviously at the speeds you are doing non of this is a issue.
This isn't meant to be a pop as I say I agree with a lot of what you say and do. Please keep a eye out for us bikers we enjoy those roads to aswell as in the car
I'm all for using all of the road that's available if it is safe. However for eg near the start of the video approx 3.30 in you are straddling the white line when you have absolutely nothing to gain from doing so. The road is wide, vision is very good on that road its little more the a slight curve.
I see other points in the video when are more of the tight twisting roads, You move out a short distance before a left hander onto the other side of the road before you start to turn in. What real gain are you getting from a couple of seconds being 2ft wider ?
In both situations you have crossed the line and as you stated in the video these are cambered roads. You have moved over for essentially the right reasons.
My question is has what you gained by moving over out weighed what you have lost ?
My answer would be no, you are moving onto the other side of the road in most instances im talking about by a few feet. In reality all you have really archived is to unsettle the car crossing the camber, cats eyes and raised white lines and in a very slow motion exaggerated kinda way doing a Scandinavian flick into the corner. Obviously at the speeds you are doing non of this is a issue.
This isn't meant to be a pop as I say I agree with a lot of what you say and do. Please keep a eye out for us bikers we enjoy those roads to aswell as in the car
The difficulty with making these videos is that you're trying to make the drive fit the commentary, rather than making the commentary fit the drive. In normal commentary driving, you'll drive along and talk abouth the whole range of upcoming hazards, what you're going to do about them and how you're going to negotiate them.
In these videos so far, however, I've been breaking driving down into its constituant parts and looking at individual aspects of driving - braking, system, gear changing and in this case, cornering.
So I have a pre-planned delivery in my head which needs to be delivered in the right order and in context.
You're correct that there was no real advantage of going offside at the 3.35 point, but it was for demonstration purposes only. If I was travelling at very high speed along that road, there would have been some advantage to an offside position there. At the speeds I'm travelling at in the video, I didn't really gain an advantage, but I arrived at the corner just as I was talking about how to position for a left-hand bend, so it seemed appropriate to "do as I do" at that point.
I'm still at the very early learning stage in making these videos and I'm sure I'll get better as time goes on.
In these videos so far, however, I've been breaking driving down into its constituant parts and looking at individual aspects of driving - braking, system, gear changing and in this case, cornering.
So I have a pre-planned delivery in my head which needs to be delivered in the right order and in context.
You're correct that there was no real advantage of going offside at the 3.35 point, but it was for demonstration purposes only. If I was travelling at very high speed along that road, there would have been some advantage to an offside position there. At the speeds I'm travelling at in the video, I didn't really gain an advantage, but I arrived at the corner just as I was talking about how to position for a left-hand bend, so it seemed appropriate to "do as I do" at that point.
I'm still at the very early learning stage in making these videos and I'm sure I'll get better as time goes on.
Reg Local said:
The difficulty with making these videos is that you're trying to make the drive fit the commentary, rather than making the commentary fit the drive. In normal commentary driving, you'll drive along and talk abouth the whole range of upcoming hazards, what you're going to do about them and how you're going to negotiate them.
In these videos so far, however, I've been breaking driving down into its constituant parts and looking at individual aspects of driving - braking, system, gear changing and in this case, cornering.
Maybe, then, you might also consider making a commentary how to video at some point? It'd no doubt be a huge help to us serial wafflers with verbal diarrhoea, and a seemingly infinite capacity to talk without breathing? In these videos so far, however, I've been breaking driving down into its constituant parts and looking at individual aspects of driving - braking, system, gear changing and in this case, cornering.
Max_Torque said:
Really good, clear video with nice commentary Reg!
I'd say the thing i notice most about "modern" driving is that good driving, with system and thought is now so rare, that the technique such good driving relies upon (such as using both sides of the road where safe to improve visibility and/or stability) actually seem to be abnormal.
99.9% of drivers i see day to day simply closely follow the car ahead without thought or positive action. In effect, the only person driving is the person at the front of the queue! (And they are generally the very cause of the queue and hence not really the person you would put in-charge of this "train of ignorance"......)
One example, the other day i was following a lorry, which had 3 cars, extremely close behind it. The lorry was doing around 35 to 40mph on a de-restricted wide, clear straight bit of A road. Staying back i could see past those cars, and see that a good safe overtake was on, and i exectuted that overtake promptly and decisively.
However, two of the cars following the lorry regarded that overtake as being "crazy" and i received a mad flashing of lights from one car, and a couple of horn honks from the other! Of course, from their position, rammed up the ass of the massive truck, pulling out and overtaking would have been crazy, with zero visibility and no room for maneuver or change of plan etc. As such, their very driving system (or lack of one) had turned a good, safe overtake into a "dangerous" one, even though the only difference was road position and observation (and attitude ;-) )
I also find that other drivers do not consider anything but how and what they drive. For example, there are plenty of cases where overtaking properly in modern high performance car is a whole world of different from doing the same overtake in a low performance car (especially when that car is also in the wrong gear and un-prepared for the overtake due to a lack of forward planning).
On an odd occasion i have had the person being overtaken actually brake to "help" me overtake, because they don't think the overtake could be completed safely, simply because they are just used to driving a 75bhp/100Nm SUV in the wrong gear. In that case, the actual passing speed can seem to be totally ridiculous/excessive, as they panic and jam on the brakes, loose 30mph, whilst i've just gained 50mph!!
What this random rambling on my part highlights is that it's become as important to consider how other people drive as how one drives oneself, and especially how ones driving is seen by other, less skilled, less observant drivers. Because everyone drives, everyone thinks they are good at it (or "above average"). And yet very few average drivers can see that training, skills and attitude can make a massive difference in the real world risk of any particular scenario.
I agree 100%. I'd say the thing i notice most about "modern" driving is that good driving, with system and thought is now so rare, that the technique such good driving relies upon (such as using both sides of the road where safe to improve visibility and/or stability) actually seem to be abnormal.
99.9% of drivers i see day to day simply closely follow the car ahead without thought or positive action. In effect, the only person driving is the person at the front of the queue! (And they are generally the very cause of the queue and hence not really the person you would put in-charge of this "train of ignorance"......)
One example, the other day i was following a lorry, which had 3 cars, extremely close behind it. The lorry was doing around 35 to 40mph on a de-restricted wide, clear straight bit of A road. Staying back i could see past those cars, and see that a good safe overtake was on, and i exectuted that overtake promptly and decisively.
However, two of the cars following the lorry regarded that overtake as being "crazy" and i received a mad flashing of lights from one car, and a couple of horn honks from the other! Of course, from their position, rammed up the ass of the massive truck, pulling out and overtaking would have been crazy, with zero visibility and no room for maneuver or change of plan etc. As such, their very driving system (or lack of one) had turned a good, safe overtake into a "dangerous" one, even though the only difference was road position and observation (and attitude ;-) )
I also find that other drivers do not consider anything but how and what they drive. For example, there are plenty of cases where overtaking properly in modern high performance car is a whole world of different from doing the same overtake in a low performance car (especially when that car is also in the wrong gear and un-prepared for the overtake due to a lack of forward planning).
On an odd occasion i have had the person being overtaken actually brake to "help" me overtake, because they don't think the overtake could be completed safely, simply because they are just used to driving a 75bhp/100Nm SUV in the wrong gear. In that case, the actual passing speed can seem to be totally ridiculous/excessive, as they panic and jam on the brakes, loose 30mph, whilst i've just gained 50mph!!
What this random rambling on my part highlights is that it's become as important to consider how other people drive as how one drives oneself, and especially how ones driving is seen by other, less skilled, less observant drivers. Because everyone drives, everyone thinks they are good at it (or "above average"). And yet very few average drivers can see that training, skills and attitude can make a massive difference in the real world risk of any particular scenario.
However the majority of people just use a car to get from A to B. Treat them all as idiots.
Driving learning / test is utter rubbish, Much the same as the bike + HGV ones in all fairness. Most car drivers cant even use a motorway / duel carriageway correctly ( even when really quiet ) How do you expect them to be on a roads when they have to turn the wheel ?
It seems lowering speed limits is the way to produce better drivers in some peoples eyes.
Max_Torque said:
What this random rambling on my part highlights is that it's become as important to consider how other people drive as how one drives oneself, and especially how ones driving is seen by other, less skilled, less observant drivers. Because everyone drives, everyone thinks they are good at it (or "above average"). And yet very few average drivers can see that training, skills and attitude can make a massive difference in the real world risk of any particular scenario.
They probably don't see themselves as less skilled, less observant. They'll sit there saying the same thing you're saying.Average drivers don't see themselves as average drivers, they see themselves as better than average.
Nice one Reg....I can see where you are going with this subject, just a shame I can not use it to help with getting people through a basic car test....the DSA would have kittens!
To pass a dsa test using IPSGA, with the road positioning you were using would be a no no.
It shows how the basic car test is not helping much in getting people to take further skills seriously at all......try as I might to getting people to have further training, or to join ROsPA/IAM has not been easy...in fact I have failed as far as i can tell to find out if any of my ex pups has taken the advise to take their driver training further....such a shame....it is really good fun!
I really enjoyed my last ROsPA test, it makes driving fun...as it should be.
Keep up the good work...plenty of us out here enjoy your work/comments/advice
To pass a dsa test using IPSGA, with the road positioning you were using would be a no no.
It shows how the basic car test is not helping much in getting people to take further skills seriously at all......try as I might to getting people to have further training, or to join ROsPA/IAM has not been easy...in fact I have failed as far as i can tell to find out if any of my ex pups has taken the advise to take their driver training further....such a shame....it is really good fun!
I really enjoyed my last ROsPA test, it makes driving fun...as it should be.
Keep up the good work...plenty of us out here enjoy your work/comments/advice
Very much agreed.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff