Using all available road space

Using all available road space

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Discussion

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Thursday 30th June 2016
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Typically, a queue builds up on a roundabout because there is a steady stream of traffic from the right and not many cars coming from the left and turning right to interrupt it. Drivers doing what the OP described are actually doing a favour to those queuing in the left hand lane at the expense of those approaching from the right because they will force traffic from the right to stop and give way, thus allowing more people out of the road they came from.

veevee

1,455 posts

150 months

Friday 1st July 2016
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If it's safe to do so, and there is plenty of space; how is doing this any more inconsiderate than getting to the front of a roundabout queue, and then taking much longer than you need to to enter the roundabout, even though you're only heading for the first exit?

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Friday 1st July 2016
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veevee said:
If it's safe to do so, and there is plenty of space; how is doing this any more inconsiderate than getting to the front of a roundabout queue, and then taking much longer than you need to to enter the roundabout, even though you're only heading for the first exit?
There's a long queue for tea & a short queue for coffee out of the door of an establishment. It's joining the coffee queue & then diving into a space at the head of the queue for tea, once you are through the common door, knowing you wanted tea all along.
There's no law legislating against that & it's not likely to be unsafe, but many will find it unsavoury though.

That's quite different from two queues which are both jointly marked as queues for both tea/coffee, being served from one hatch ahead, where merging in turn is to be expected & you've joined the shorter of those two queues.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Friday 1st July 2016
quotequote all
It's not like that queuing analogy, because the people losing out are not the ones in the line you pass. If you wanted to get all twenty cars out of a side road turning left onto a busy main road at a roundabout, the quickest way to get everyone out would be to split ten of them into each of the two lanes and have half of them circle the roundabout. Or just have one of them do laps of the roundabout until everyone was out!

768

13,599 posts

95 months

Friday 1st July 2016
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Something I find more annoying than looping a roundabout, which at least requires some initiative, is spots like this where the road splits in to two and then back to one. It's infuriating and just puts people in conflict.

I've been known to use the right lane to overtake if as I'm arriving others are at a standstill or it's a slow moving vehicle at the front, but I keep finding tts that move right before the lane has split and then don't even get up to the speed limit, holding up the traffic. What's the point?!

AL...Ease

2,679 posts

217 months

Friday 1st July 2016
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I occasionally do this, but only on roundabouts where the lane priorities are skewed. There's a big roundabout I pass every few months where the left lane usually has 30 cars queuing for Left and Straight On, then the right lane has 2 cars in for Right. Most people are going Straight On, so I don't end up passing many of the Left drivers, but it saves 2 or 3 minutes of waiting in the queue.

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Friday 1st July 2016
quotequote all
otolith said:
It's not like that queuing analogy, because the people losing out are not the ones in the line you pass. If you wanted to get all twenty cars out of a side road turning left onto a busy main road at a roundabout, the quickest way to get everyone out would be to split ten of them into each of the two lanes and have half of them circle the roundabout. Or just have one of them do laps of the roundabout until everyone was out!
In the analogy those in the queue wouldn't necessarily realise they are losing out but they are losing out time wise by using the system as designed compared to those who effectively cheat the system as designed. Or they may see it & see it as cheats prospering.
And they may lose out even though you contest they don't, because they are after all held from entering as you pass across the front of them having circumnavigated.
Of course it is all dependant on markings etc as to whether it might be considered fair play, merely considered a cheat (i.e. not unlawful though poor form), or indeed unlawful in the case of roundabouts/junctions.

Your answer to getting all the traffic out by one vehicle repeatedly circumnavigating the roundabout may be good for that queue, but will likely be at the expense of others from other directions who wouldn't have had to wait for so long save for that vehicle repeatedly circumnavigating.
Someone trying to beat the system for their own little gains is often at some cost (even if only a little) to somebody else.
Standing cultures will often determined how that is viewed, just look at different national approaches, but of course cultures can & do change.



Edited by vonhosen on Friday 1st July 15:50

FerdiZ28

1,355 posts

133 months

Friday 1st July 2016
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I do this daily on my commute home, gets a few looks but I'd imagine they are seated in jealousy for not having the idea, rather than anger for me having the "cheek" to do it.

I don't see the problem to be honest and as said, makes for more efficient progress.

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Friday 1st July 2016
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
otolith said:
It's not like that queuing analogy, because the people losing out are not the ones in the line you pass. If you wanted to get all twenty cars out of a side road turning left onto a busy main road at a roundabout, the quickest way to get everyone out would be to split ten of them into each of the two lanes and have half of them circle the roundabout. Or just have one of them do laps of the roundabout until everyone was out!
In the analogy those in the queue wouldn't necessarily realise they are losing out but they are losing out time wise by using the system as designed compared to those who effectively cheat the system as designed. Or they may see it & see it as cheats prospering.
Of course it is all dependant on markings etc as to whether it might be considered fair play, merely considered a cheat (i.e. not unlawful though poor form), or indeed unlawful in the case of roundabouts/junctions.

Your answer to getting all the traffic out by one vehicle repeatedly circumnavigating the roundabout may be good for that queue, but will likely be at the expense of others from other directions who wouldn't have had to wait for so long save for that vehicle repeatedly circumnavigating.
Someone trying to beat the system for their own little gains is often at some cost (even if only a little) to somebody else.
Standing cultures will often determined how that is viewed, just look at different national approaches, but of course cultures can & do change.
Yes, it's at the expense of the traffic coming out of the other roads - but not of that in the "queue" you are apparently jumping. You're doing them a favour.

It's not a tactic I use, but it's relatively benign.

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Friday 1st July 2016
quotequote all
otolith said:
vonhosen said:
otolith said:
It's not like that queuing analogy, because the people losing out are not the ones in the line you pass. If you wanted to get all twenty cars out of a side road turning left onto a busy main road at a roundabout, the quickest way to get everyone out would be to split ten of them into each of the two lanes and have half of them circle the roundabout. Or just have one of them do laps of the roundabout until everyone was out!
In the analogy those in the queue wouldn't necessarily realise they are losing out but they are losing out time wise by using the system as designed compared to those who effectively cheat the system as designed. Or they may see it & see it as cheats prospering.
Of course it is all dependant on markings etc as to whether it might be considered fair play, merely considered a cheat (i.e. not unlawful though poor form), or indeed unlawful in the case of roundabouts/junctions.

Your answer to getting all the traffic out by one vehicle repeatedly circumnavigating the roundabout may be good for that queue, but will likely be at the expense of others from other directions who wouldn't have had to wait for so long save for that vehicle repeatedly circumnavigating.
Someone trying to beat the system for their own little gains is often at some cost (even if only a little) to somebody else.
Standing cultures will often determined how that is viewed, just look at different national approaches, but of course cultures can & do change.
Yes, it's at the expense of the traffic coming out of the other roads - but not of that in the "queue" you are apparently jumping. You're doing them a favour.

It's not a tactic I use, but it's relatively benign.
There are circumstances where it could be at their expense, because as you circumnavigate you pass across the front of them forcing that line of traffic to hold for you where they wouldn't have necessarily had to at that point if you weren't passing across the front of them.

It may be relatively benign (being a relatively small loss for them in order for you to gain), but they all add up system wide & can cause resentment contributing to road rage etc.

As I said whether it's them or the other directions of traffic somebody generally loses for your personal win, you won't always know who it's going to be when you set out to do the cheat, but it will generally be to someone else's cost.

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 1st July 15:56

otolith

55,899 posts

203 months

Friday 1st July 2016
quotequote all
Yes, in the situation where the queue is not caused by traffic from the right, it would be at the queue's expense. If, for instance, the queue was caused by standing traffic to the left. Mostly I find queues on roundabouts seem to be down to a minor road joining a major, though perhaps that's not so much the case in very congested areas.

pim

2,344 posts

123 months

Saturday 23rd July 2016
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FerdiZ28 said:
I do this daily on my commute home, gets a few looks but I'd imagine they are seated in jealousy for not having the idea, rather than anger for me having the "cheek" to do it.

I don't see the problem to be honest and as said, makes for more efficient progress.
It used to happen a lot on a road near me.Queue on the left lane drivers on the right line making a full circle on the R/About and jumping the queue.

Plod used to stop a few cars who did this I don't know what they had to say.Can cause road rage is it worth it jumping the queue.?

InitialDave

11,853 posts

118 months

Saturday 23rd July 2016
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I don't think you're automatically wrong to do it, but I think you are wrong to teach it. TartanPaint's post largely covers my feelings on the matter.


xpc316e

23 posts

102 months

Monday 25th July 2016
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In my town we have a two lane slip road leading from a main A road dual carriageway to a roundabout. The slip road has signs which read 'Queue in both lanes'. The left lane has a left arrow painted on the road, while right lane has an arrow with heads pointing both left and right.

Most drivers when wanting to go left will only use the left lane and it usually has a lengthy tailback. When one turns left at the roundabout there is about 200m of two lane dual carriageway leading to another roundabout. This has exits at 9 o'clock and 1 o'clock with the vast majority of traffic leaving at the 1 o'clock exit to go into town. The 1o'clock exit is a single lane dual carriageway with a sign reading 'Merge in turn'.

I habitually take the right lane on the slip road, turn left at the roundabout, overtaking hordes of other drivers in the process. I then approach the second roundabout in the right hand lane, which is fine as I wish to go past the 12 o'clock position, so I then overtake another boatload of drivers who are busy queuing in the clogged left lane, merge into one lane and drive off having saved minutes on my journey.

The signs legitimise my actions, but obviously many here would think that I am 'cheating'. I feel that this perspective comes from blindly following the driver in front and then being upset when confronted by someone who can think for themselves.

_Neal_

2,658 posts

218 months

Monday 25th July 2016
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xpc316e said:
The signs legitimise my actions, but obviously many here would think that I am 'cheating'
I'd be surprised if any of the posters on here thought you were cheating (I certainly don't) - you've just found that using the road as it was designed gives you an advantage. I'd suggest because people take the easier option (i.e. not liking going left in a right hand lane, not needing to merge left from two lanes into one).

It's very different from what the OP is teaching - I agree with TartanPaint's good post above and would rather the OP would stop teaching it.

CABC

5,527 posts

100 months

Monday 25th July 2016
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watchnut said:
Fair points all round really.

In a liveried up vehicle on a small roundabout where everyone can see what your up to it could raise a quizzical eyebrow or two if other road users were actually awake to what was going on.
i actually think a fair few of the front cars would spot you in a plain car too.
do you use off/on ramps on motorways to jump queues too?
We all know these little tricks...
it's why lane hopping in motorway traffic makes the overall throughput lower, even if the odd pushy guy does make faster progress. Of course, it's worse for the environment too.

NuddyRap

218 posts

102 months

Tuesday 26th July 2016
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Interesting points.

I just want to throw in the fact that whilst my Step-Dad was undergoing his Grade 1 Advanced Police Driver training (... It was a number of years ago), they explicitly told him to do exactly this. Go all of the way around and exit.

I therefore have, and still do it just about as often as I deem it likely to result in a quicker passage than waiting in the queue, regardless of what I'm driving.

As for the arguments to morals and the hypothetical "If everyone did this..." arguments: Everyone doesn't do it, which is why it's possible. Everyone doing it is not a circumstance which is even remotely likely as too many people are content with not thinking ahead, or too unobservant to spot the opportunity and by the nature of human variation, that will always be the case. Or too 'Polite'.

Selfish? Only if it holds up somebody else. Otherwise balancing risk against reward, risking lateness vs. being early (Or on time) and the benefits of that are something I regard as more rewarding than holding a mental moral high ground that only I'm aware of; will almost instantly forget; has no observable effect (Other than my lateness); is no more likely to proliferate as a preferred behaviour a result of my participation; won't contribute to the lives of the people around me (It would actually be slightly detrimental as a number of people will be one car further back in the queue).

Nobody will reward me or anybody else for being British enough to wait unnecessarily.

Sometimes people are probably glad I'm doing it too so they aren't stuck behind a shouty, heat emitting and smelly, antisocial TVR byebye.

InitialDave

11,853 posts

118 months

Tuesday 26th July 2016
quotequote all
NuddyRap said:
Interesting points.
I just want to throw in the fact that whilst my Step-Dad was undergoing his Grade 1 Advanced Police Driver training (... It was a number of years ago), they explicitly told him to do exactly this. Go all of the way around and exit.
So is it ok for "normal" drivers to apply all the other aspects of that training on the road also?

7db

6,058 posts

229 months

Tuesday 26th July 2016
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CPS has this to say on S3 inconsiderate driving:-

"This offence is appropriate when the driving amounts to a clear act of incompetence, selfishness, impatience or aggressiveness in addition to some other inconvenience to road users. The following examples are typical of actions likely to be regarded as inconsiderate driving:

-- ...
-- misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers;
-- ..."

CABC

5,527 posts

100 months

Wednesday 27th July 2016
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7db said:
CPS has this to say on S3 inconsiderate driving:-

"This offence is appropriate when the driving amounts to a clear act of incompetence, selfishness, impatience or aggressiveness in addition to some other inconvenience to road users. The following examples are typical of actions likely to be regarded as inconsiderate driving:

-- ...
-- misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers;
-- ..."
who said the law is an ass!

all those defending 540deg turns at busy roundabouts, remember you (typically) pass 4 entrances on your circuit preventing flow of traffic in other directions.