Proper procedure?

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Discussion

Tanguero

Original Poster:

4,535 posts

200 months

Monday 5th September 2016
quotequote all
I had a slightly unusual situation at a 'T' yesterday that despite hunting through the highway code I haven't found a definitive answer to.

The junction is a 'T' controlled by traffic lights, with a box junction within the controlled area but only along the top of the T. I approached from the left of the T junction on green lights and had crossed the stop line but not yet entered the box when an ambulance that was waiting at the red light on the joining road put on its blues and sirens. I stopped where I was before the box and let the ambulance turn right and go through the junction ahead of me. By the time it had cleared the junction the lights in my direction had changed to red, but the joining traffic hadn't started moving. Should I have continued through the (clear) box and red light as I was already over the stop line, or stayed put between the stop line and the flow of the junction to wait for the next green light?

To add interest I was on a motorbike under instruction and my instructor told me to proceed through the junction against the now red light before the joining traffic got moving. My instinct was to stay put and if I had been in a car I would have waited for the next green.

(ETA while new to bikes I have many years car driving experience so this is a more general question)


Edited by Tanguero on Monday 5th September 13:14

Nigel_O

2,858 posts

218 months

Monday 5th September 2016
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I have no idea about the published / recommended correct action, but my gut reaction would always be to play it safe, which would mean staying where you are. Its not possible to tell how quickly the other traffic will be given a green light after "yours" has gone red.

londonbabe

2,044 posts

191 months

Monday 5th September 2016
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The traffic light rules are about crossing the white line, not the lights, so it would be legal to continue, though not necessarily safe. I expect this is where your instructor's experience came in.

Mandat

3,881 posts

237 months

Monday 5th September 2016
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Tanguero said:
I had a slightly unusual situation at a 'T' yesterday that despite hunting through the highway code I haven't found a definitive answer to.

The junction is a 'T' controlled by traffic lights, with a box junction within the controlled area but only along the top of the T. I approached from the left of the T junction on green lights and had crossed the stop line but not yet entered the box when an ambulance that was waiting at the red light on the joining road put on its blues and sirens. I stopped where I was before the box and let the ambulance turn right and go through the junction ahead of me. By the time it had cleared the junction the lights in my direction had changed to red, but the joining traffic hadn't started moving. Should I have continued through the (clear) box and red light as I was already over the stop line, or stayed put between the stop line and the flow of the junction to wait for the next green light?

To add interest I was on a motorbike under instruction and my instructor told me to proceed through the junction against the now red light before the joining traffic got moving. My instinct was to stay put and if I had been in a car I would have waited for the next green.

(ETA while new to bikes I have many years car driving experience so this is a more general question)


Edited by Tanguero on Monday 5th September 13:14
Once you have crossed the stop line for those lights, then the lights no longer apply to you, and you should treat the junction as a give way.

If it is not safe to cross the junction then wait until it is safe to do so (usually with the next green light in your direction).

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 5th September 2016
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I think the answer to this one is "it depends"..... ;-)

You do what ever you need to do to expose yourself or anyone else to the lowest possible risk, imo.

With a fully sighted junction and assuming you are, and have been fully situation-ally aware, and where there is no chance of someone appearing at speed unexpectedly from ANY direction, then it's probably safer to remove yourself from a potential pinch point.

However, if you judge it to be a higher risk to continue across the junction, due to poor sight lines or a lack of situation awareness (ie, is that car going to suddenly start moving or not? Have i been watching them long enough to decide if they might or might not move etc) then staying put could be safer.


One of my mantras has become "it's very difficult to have an accident with another road user when there are no other road users around". IE, removing yourself from a potential pinch point, even at the expense of potentially slightly increased risk in the very short term tends to be safer overall.

A good example of this is temporarily exceeding the speed limit on 60/70 mph dual carriageways when approaching large roundabouts, to avoid having a load of idiots right up your chuff, who may either fail to stop, or misjudge you going and drive into the back of you (the classic "ohh, i thought you'd gone" shunt). if i can build a nice big buffer behind me, which means i won't still be at the roundabout when everyone else arrives then i shall do this (note: if you know you've got to stop, then the other option of making sure they have caught up and controlling their decel with your speed is a better option)

IcedKiwi

91 posts

114 months

Monday 5th September 2016
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Also remember that the other traffic might not be moving because the pedestrian lights are on green

Tanguero

Original Poster:

4,535 posts

200 months

Monday 5th September 2016
quotequote all
I am not so much asking about what is safest, as obviously that depends on the traffic and timing at the time, but what the legality is of staying within the junction versus proceeding through the far red light. Point taken that the prohibition is on passing the stop line with a red light showing, but what would a red light camera do in the circumstances?

Dizeee

18,168 posts

205 months

Monday 5th September 2016
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All four wheels need to pass the stop line.

Technically by being stuck in the box despite your best intentions you would fall foul of contravening it.

Blue lights do nit give the user right of way.

It sounds to me like you should have continued on as soon as you could and by staying put you have left yourself vulnerable.

dvenman

219 posts

114 months

Tuesday 6th September 2016
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Dizeee said:
Technically by being stuck in the box despite your best intentions you would fall foul of contravening it.
You can enter a box junction and stop on it if turning right and waiting for oncoming or other right turning traffic. Roundabouts are slightly different - you need to be able to cross the box completely.

The OP probably took the safest option, but as Dizee also pointed out, blues and twos don't give priority they're to let other road users know they're there.

[Edited to clarify you can only stop in the box if turning right - originally said "You can enter a box junction and stop on it if your exit is clear."]

Edited by dvenman on Tuesday 6th September 11:13

Dizeee

18,168 posts

205 months

Tuesday 6th September 2016
quotequote all
dvenman said:
You can enter a box junction and stop on it if your exit is clear.
You can't - you can only stop in it if your turning right and are waiting to complete the turn due to other vehicles. The OP was not turning right and found himself stationary in the box, a scenario not covered by the defence.

dvenman

219 posts

114 months

Tuesday 6th September 2016
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Dizeee said:
dvenman said:
You can enter a box junction and stop on it if your exit is clear.
You can't - you can only stop in it if your turning right and are waiting to complete the turn due to other vehicles. The OP was not turning right and found himself stationary in the box, a scenario not covered by the defence.
My apologies, I forgot to clarify that was on a right turn, and I've edited my post accordingly. Re-reading the original post, OP says he wasn't on the box. So if he's over the line but not on the box then the best course of action to take is the safest given the particular circumstances.


Tanguero

Original Poster:

4,535 posts

200 months

Tuesday 6th September 2016
quotequote all
Dizeee said:
All four wheels need to pass the stop line.

Technically by being stuck in the box despite your best intentions you would fall foul of contravening it.
Just to be clear - I never entered the box. I stopped short of it.

Dizeee

18,168 posts

205 months

Tuesday 6th September 2016
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As you were then :-)

Dr Mike Oxgreen

4,101 posts

164 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
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dvenman said:
[Edited to clarify you can only stop in the box if turning right - originally said "You can enter a box junction and stop on it if your exit is clear.
This is what the Highway Code states, but it is not a correct quote of what the law itself states. The Highway Code mentions turning right, but the law doesn't.

According to the law, you must not enter the box if you will be forced to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It says nothing about turning right.

So if you enter a box and stop because you are prevented from proceeding due to moving vehicles, regardless of whether you were trying to go straight on, turn left, turn right, whatever - then you have not committed a box junction violation.

Of course, stopping and waiting to turn right while oncoming (moving) vehicles impede your progress is indeed one example of a legal stop within a box junction. But it's not the only scenario that would be legal according to the wording of the law.

Dizeee

18,168 posts

205 months

Tuesday 13th September 2016
quotequote all
What an pain it would be if the moving ambulance decided that having turned across the OP they no longer needed to continue to where they were going, and turned off their equipment coming to rest in the last remaining space that the OP would have taken.

In that scenario the OP would have been prevented from exiting the box by a moving vehicle which subsequently becomes a stationary vehicle, so would commit the offence despite having no real option but to allow that situation to occur.

As they say, the law is an ass!

jamei303

2,996 posts

155 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
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"The red signal shall convey the prohibition that vehicular traffic shall not proceed beyond the stop line"

As regards the law in relation to traffic lights it's that simple - if you're not crossing the stop line when the signals are red you are good to go.

The only caveat is where the stop line is not visible:

"Where no stop line has been provided in conjunction with light signals or the stop line is not visible, references in relation to those signals to the “stop line” are...to be treated as references to the post or other structure on which the primary signals are mounted."

In this case if the stop line hadn't have been visible I presume you had already passed the primary signals and could see only the secondary signals, so would still have been good to go.

“primary signals” means light signals erected on or near the carriageway of a road
and—
(i) where a stop line is placed in conjunction with the signals, sited beyond that line
and near one end or both ends of the line; or
(ii) where there is no stop line, sited at either edge or both edges of the carriageway
or part of the carriageway which is in use by traffic approaching and controlled
by the signals;
(b) “secondary signals” means light signals erected on or near the carriageway facing
traffic approaching from the direction of the primary signals but sited beyond those
signals as viewed from the direction of travel of such traffic;







Tanguero

Original Poster:

4,535 posts

200 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
quotequote all
Perfect - exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

Red Devil

13,055 posts

207 months

Tuesday 20th September 2016
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Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
dvenman said:
[Edited to clarify you can only stop in the box if turning right - originally said "You can enter a box junction and stop on it if your exit is clear.
This is what the Highway Code states, but it is not a correct quote of what the law itself states. The Highway Code mentions turning right, but the law doesn't.

According to the law, you must not enter the box if you will be forced to stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It says nothing about turning right.
I think you'll find it does. See below.

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
So if you enter a box and stop because you are prevented from proceeding due to moving vehicles, regardless of whether you were trying to go straight on, turn left, turn right, whatever - then you have not committed a box junction violation.
I beg to differ. See below.

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Of course, stopping and waiting to turn right while oncoming (moving) vehicles impede your progress is indeed one example of a legal stop within a box junction. But it's not the only scenario that would be legal according to the wording of the law.
A right turn is the only exception which is specifically mentioned in the legislation. See - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedu...
Perhaps you could give us some examples of other scenario(s) which you claim are permitted.

Btw, yellow boxes can be found at places other than junctions. The legislation provides for those too. Note the differences in the wording.

PhilAsia

3,697 posts

74 months

Friday 2nd February 2018
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I think the HC is fairly clear on this...from my understanding of the wording, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Box junction/turning right - sorted already (rule174) Enter and stop? Fine. If exit is clear. (Except RBT)

Lights Controlling Traffic: Page102
You lights are Red - stop behind the stop line. You have passed the stop line....continue with caution
Other road users now have a Green - "means you can go on if the way is clear". You have not completed and have passed the stop line, therefore the way ahead is not clear. Clear the junction, then they can "go on" (proceed - I'm sure the old HC, page 54 used "proceed". I live in Asia now and only have the latest(?) 2007, HC. Anyone? )