The Middle Lane Militia
Discussion
johnao said:
vonhosen said:
The law only recognises & applies one common standard of driving.
Agreed. But of what relevance is this truism to this discussion and the points that I made, please?I'm just pointing out that the law, which carries more weight & has a big stick compared to the Highway code, equally doesn't recognise advanced driving techniques.
It applies/administers one common behavioural standard that is applicable to all, from learner through to the most experienced. It gives no credit or quarter to those who perceive themselves as cut above the less experienced.
vonhosen said:
johnao said:
vonhosen said:
The law only recognises & applies one common standard of driving.
Agreed. But of what relevance is this truism to this discussion and the points that I made, please?I'm just pointing out that the law, which carries more weight & has a big stick compared to the Highway code, equally doesn't recognise advanced driving techniques.
It applies/administers one common behavioural standard that is applicable to all, from learner through to the most experienced. It gives no credit or quarter to those who perceive themselves as cut above the less experienced.
You still haven't explained the relevance of your statement... "that the law, which carries more weight & has a big stick compared to the Highway code, equally doesn't recognise advanced driving techniques" to anything that I have posted previously, although you chose to quote my post in your response. I don't understand.
Again. You posted... "It applies/administers one common behavioural standard that is applicable to all, from learner through to the most experienced. It gives no credit or quarter to those who perceive themselves as cut above the less experienced" in juxtaposition with my quoted posting. I don't understand. I never claimed that the law had any application or relevance to anything I posted. I'm surprised that you seem to making any connection whatsoever.
Lane 1 is often so badly rutted by HGV's that I regularly use lane 2 for no other reason than because it doesn't cause my vehicle to track around all over the place in the ruts that are often present in lane 1.
In heavier traffic I rarely find I am travelling at a speed that makes use of lane 1 appropriate, but I would always be considerate to other road users and use lane 1 if not doing somehow impeded them.
Anyone who thinks I should drive in lane 1 simply because it is empty, and because they do not wish to use an empty lane three on principle can merrily go and choke on their own anger all the way to their next anger management session!! I watch in amusement as they pointlessly sail from lane 1 to lane 3 across the back of me, and back to lane 1 in front of me as though somehow delivering a lecture with a pathetic vehicular gesture. GET A LIFE
In heavier traffic I rarely find I am travelling at a speed that makes use of lane 1 appropriate, but I would always be considerate to other road users and use lane 1 if not doing somehow impeded them.
Anyone who thinks I should drive in lane 1 simply because it is empty, and because they do not wish to use an empty lane three on principle can merrily go and choke on their own anger all the way to their next anger management session!! I watch in amusement as they pointlessly sail from lane 1 to lane 3 across the back of me, and back to lane 1 in front of me as though somehow delivering a lecture with a pathetic vehicular gesture. GET A LIFE
SimonSh said:
I watch in amusement as they pointlessly sail from lane 1 to lane 3 across the back of me, and back to lane 1 in front of me as though somehow delivering a lecture with a pathetic vehicular gesture. GET A LIFE
What the f
k are we supposed to do? Sticking in lane 1 could be interpreted as undertaking and carries the risk that you will wake up and return to lane 1 while we are alongside. Moving out to lane 3 and staying there invites prosecution for driving without due consideration.It's the people who spend their time cruising the motorways in lane 2 at 60MPH for the sole purpose of pissing others off that should get a life.
SimonSh said:
Lane 1 is often so badly rutted by HGV's that I regularly use lane 2 for no other reason than because it doesn't cause my vehicle to track around all over the place in the ruts that are often present in lane 1.
Yes, terrible problem.Except for the people who manage to continue doing 30mph more than you down lane 1.
Not to mention effectively reducing the capacity of a 3 lane motorway to 2 lanes. And a 4 lane one to 3. Hardly surprising that some people cba with looping round them and simply pass on the inside. On parts of the M25 it is often quicker and less hassle to stay in lane 1 rather than join the nose-to-tail lemmings in the outer lanes.
On one memorable Bank Holiday weekend some years ago I set out with a friend from Scratchwood Services to J39 of the M1 near Wakefield. I remained in lane 1 for almost the entire journey. I saw his car out in lane 3 somewhere just north of Luton. I was catching him up as the traffic in lane 1 was moving faster and he fell behind. I never saw him again until he reached the hotel we had booked into.
I ordered a coffee and waited for him in the lobby. He arrived at reception looking rather frazzled ~25 minutes after me. Go figure.
On one memorable Bank Holiday weekend some years ago I set out with a friend from Scratchwood Services to J39 of the M1 near Wakefield. I remained in lane 1 for almost the entire journey. I saw his car out in lane 3 somewhere just north of Luton. I was catching him up as the traffic in lane 1 was moving faster and he fell behind. I never saw him again until he reached the hotel we had booked into.
I ordered a coffee and waited for him in the lobby. He arrived at reception looking rather frazzled ~25 minutes after me. Go figure.
Simonsh said
Anyone who thinks I should drive in lane 1 simply because it is empty, and because they do not wish to use an empty lane three on principle can merrily go and choke on their own anger all the way to their next anger management session!!
Simon should read the HC where it tells you to drive in the inside lane, ( wont bother telling him the page ,as he evidently hasn't got a HC to read)
Anyone who thinks I should drive in lane 1 simply because it is empty, and because they do not wish to use an empty lane three on principle can merrily go and choke on their own anger all the way to their next anger management session!!
Simon should read the HC where it tells you to drive in the inside lane, ( wont bother telling him the page ,as he evidently hasn't got a HC to read)
johnao said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Moving out to lane 3 and staying there invites prosecution for driving without due consideration.
What would be basis for that prosecutiion?Of course for careless no inconvenience to another is required (that's only required for inconsiderate driving), only that the driving fell short of the one standard expected.
The highway code can be relied upon in support of a prosecution for that offence by virtue of Sec 38 RTA 1988.
Sec 38 RTA said:
Sub section (7)
A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or criminal, and including proceedings for an offence under the Traffic Acts, the M1Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 or sections 18 to 23 of the M2Transport Act 1985) be relied upon by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negative any liability which is in question in those proceedings.
A failure on the part of a person to observe a provision of the Highway Code shall not of itself render that person liable to criminal proceedings of any kind but any such failure may in any proceedings (whether civil or criminal, and including proceedings for an offence under the Traffic Acts, the M1Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 or sections 18 to 23 of the M2Transport Act 1985) be relied upon by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negative any liability which is in question in those proceedings.
Dr Jekyll said:
johnao said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Moving out to lane 3 and staying there invites prosecution for driving without due consideration.
What would be basis for that prosecutiion?For the prosecution to prove the offence of driving without reasonable consideration, it must show that another road user was inconvenienced by the defendant’s driving and if there is no vehicle following in lane 2 or 3 then no other road user has been inconvenienced and no offence has been committed.
Driving without due care and attention is defined as driving that “falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver”. I can't envisage a successful prosecution for this offence based solely on the occupancy of lane 2 or 3 where there is no inconvenience or danger to another road user.
Yes, I agree, if another road user has been inconvenienced or put in danger then an offence will have been committed. But, what I think might be a more interesting discussion for the members of this advanced driving forum is the use of lanes 2 and 3 to gain an advantage in terms of vision and in moving the car to a place of safety, provided no other road user is inconvenienced or placed in danger. This seems to be a debate that Highway Code "rule" followers seem reluctant to acknowledge or enter in to.
SimonSh said:
Lane 1 is often so badly rutted by HGV's that I regularly use lane 2 for no other reason than because it doesn't cause my vehicle to track around all over the place in the ruts that are often present in lane 1.
In heavier traffic I rarely find I am travelling at a speed that makes use of lane 1 appropriate, but I would always be considerate to other road users and use lane 1 if not doing somehow impeded them.
Anyone who thinks I should drive in lane 1 simply because it is empty, and because they do not wish to use an empty lane three on principle can merrily go and choke on their own anger all the way to their next anger management session!! I watch in amusement as they pointlessly sail from lane 1 to lane 3 across the back of me, and back to lane 1 in front of me as though somehow delivering a lecture with a pathetic vehicular gesture. GET A LIFE
THIS was the post I was responding to. In heavier traffic I rarely find I am travelling at a speed that makes use of lane 1 appropriate, but I would always be considerate to other road users and use lane 1 if not doing somehow impeded them.
Anyone who thinks I should drive in lane 1 simply because it is empty, and because they do not wish to use an empty lane three on principle can merrily go and choke on their own anger all the way to their next anger management session!! I watch in amusement as they pointlessly sail from lane 1 to lane 3 across the back of me, and back to lane 1 in front of me as though somehow delivering a lecture with a pathetic vehicular gesture. GET A LIFE
I was quite reasonably asking what exactly is wrong with returning to lane 1 after the overtake, and pointing out that remaining in lane 3 for the ret of the journey is not sensible, 'advanced' or even rational.
SimonSh said:
Lane 1 is often so badly rutted by HGV's that I regularly use lane 2 for no other reason than because it doesn't cause my vehicle to track around all over the place in the ruts that are often present in lane 1.
In heavier traffic I rarely find I am travelling at a speed that makes use of lane 1 appropriate, but I would always be considerate to other road users and use lane 1 if not doing somehow impeded them.
Anyone who thinks I should drive in lane 1 simply because it is empty, and because they do not wish to use an empty lane three on principle can merrily go and choke on their own anger all the way to their next anger management session!! I watch in amusement as they pointlessly sail from lane 1 to lane 3 across the back of me, and back to lane 1 in front of me as though somehow delivering a lecture with a pathetic vehicular gesture. GET A LIFE
You are clearly the sort of unpleasant person in this world who feels like you are owed everything by everyone but owe nothing in return. You clearly lack empathy or the basic social ability to understand other people. You write it as if it's an achievement to force three lanes of traffic approaching behind you into one lane to pass you, then label it as pathetic when traffic is then able to use the motorway properly again infront of you. The only pathetic person here without a life is you. In heavier traffic I rarely find I am travelling at a speed that makes use of lane 1 appropriate, but I would always be considerate to other road users and use lane 1 if not doing somehow impeded them.
Anyone who thinks I should drive in lane 1 simply because it is empty, and because they do not wish to use an empty lane three on principle can merrily go and choke on their own anger all the way to their next anger management session!! I watch in amusement as they pointlessly sail from lane 1 to lane 3 across the back of me, and back to lane 1 in front of me as though somehow delivering a lecture with a pathetic vehicular gesture. GET A LIFE
And for the record, L1 is a perfectable acceptable lane to use on the motorway, but you wouldn't know that as you never use it.
There's been some good discussion on here I must admit.
Slightly baffled by the post regarding sitting in the middle lane and laughing as people have to manoeuvre round you to overtake. Sounds like that's just deliberate belligerence, regardless of this being an advanced driving forum that just sounds like poor driving.
I actually did Surrey to Bristol and back in the last couple of days and by contrast found it to be a pleasantly stress free journey with minimal idiocy. There were a few drivers in the middle lane just sitting there but overall it seemed people were quite patient in the main part.
I spent most of my journeys in lane one but I actually observed a couple of pleasantly observant drivers out there. For example, in lane 1 doing 70 (cruise control) and someone overtaking in lane 2) but as they see I'm nearing slower moving traffic, moved out to lane 3 enabling me to continue at the same speed. I was all set to ease off the throttle or move out once they passed. Was good to see some considerate driving as I wasn't sitting there indicating to move or bumper to bumper with the car in front, just a handful of road users making space for others, I suspect as they were doing 80+ so approaching slower traffic at some rate but at least they were taking that into account.
Slightly baffled by the post regarding sitting in the middle lane and laughing as people have to manoeuvre round you to overtake. Sounds like that's just deliberate belligerence, regardless of this being an advanced driving forum that just sounds like poor driving.
I actually did Surrey to Bristol and back in the last couple of days and by contrast found it to be a pleasantly stress free journey with minimal idiocy. There were a few drivers in the middle lane just sitting there but overall it seemed people were quite patient in the main part.
I spent most of my journeys in lane one but I actually observed a couple of pleasantly observant drivers out there. For example, in lane 1 doing 70 (cruise control) and someone overtaking in lane 2) but as they see I'm nearing slower moving traffic, moved out to lane 3 enabling me to continue at the same speed. I was all set to ease off the throttle or move out once they passed. Was good to see some considerate driving as I wasn't sitting there indicating to move or bumper to bumper with the car in front, just a handful of road users making space for others, I suspect as they were doing 80+ so approaching slower traffic at some rate but at least they were taking that into account.
Alex_225 said:
I spent most of my journeys in lane one but I actually observed a couple of pleasantly observant drivers out there. For example, in lane 1 doing 70 (cruise control) and someone overtaking in lane 2) but as they see I'm nearing slower moving traffic, moved out to lane 3 enabling me to continue at the same speed. I was all set to ease off the throttle or move out once they passed. Was good to see some considerate driving as I wasn't sitting there indicating to move or bumper to bumper with the car in front, just a handful of road users making space for others, I suspect as they were doing 80+ so approaching slower traffic at some rate but at least they were taking that into account.
Good to hear that there are some thinking drivers out there; and good hear that someone, like yourself, acknowledges and appreciates their application of advanced driver thinking. Now, what were we discussing about the Highway Code and always aiming to be in the left-hand lane? Oh, yes. I remember. It was if you want to drive-by-numbers do exactly what the Highway Code tells you under all circumstances and in all situations because the law recognises only one standard of driving. No, I still don't see any merit in a literal reading of everything contained in the Highway code or any consequential link to the truism.
Edited by johnao on Thursday 15th December 09:55
johnao said:
Good to hear that there are some thinking drivers out there; and good hear that someone, like yourself, acknowledges and appreciates their application of advanced driver thinking.
Now, what were we discussing about the Highway Code and always aiming to be in the left-hand lane? Oh, yes. I remember. It was if you want to drive-by-numbers do exactly what the Highway Code tells you under all circumstances and in all situations because the law recognises only one standard of driving. No, I still don't see any merit in a literal reading of everything contained in the Highway code or any consequential link to the truism.
Got to take the positives out of things right? Driving can be stressful with the lack of consideration others can take but nice to see there are decent drivers out there who are reading the road ahead in the same why I try to. Now, what were we discussing about the Highway Code and always aiming to be in the left-hand lane? Oh, yes. I remember. It was if you want to drive-by-numbers do exactly what the Highway Code tells you under all circumstances and in all situations because the law recognises only one standard of driving. No, I still don't see any merit in a literal reading of everything contained in the Highway code or any consequential link to the truism.
Edited by johnao on Thursday 15th December 09:55
I do agree that in terms of the Highway Code there can be an element of driving by numbers and I suppose common sense is the main factor when it comes to advanced or just good driving in general.
I suppose I look at the motorway and think that there are three lanes, which can all be used. If I'm in lane 2 overtaking vehicles in lane 1 and I come up behind someone moving more slowly than me in lane 2, I'll move to lane 3 and pass. If they are overtaking cars rather than just sitting at the same speed, I think it makes sense for them to remain in lane 2, rather than pull into 1, then moments later end up back out into lane 2. If that makes sense.
My opinion is that I would ideally cruise in lane 1 and use 2 and 3 to overtake, I wouldn't remain in those two lanes for miles on end but if there is a constant row of slow moving vehicles which I am passing, it makes sense to remain in lane 2 until necessary.
I'm probably not making much sense typing it all out haha
One of the traits of good driving is ensuring the vehicle you've just overtaken is fully visible in your rearview mirrors before you move in. You also shouldn't encroach on your two second stopping distance before moving out to overtake the next vehicle.
I see plenty of people break both these rules as they seem to try and make a point about keeping left by moving over into small gaps rather than smoothly overtaking a line of vehicles.
It's not hard to know the happy medium between lane hogging and excessively changing lanes and cutting people up.
You can tell those who only keep left as an instruction to others to stay out of their way as when they see someone gaining on them and about to overtake them they move out to block them. They don't keep left to facilitate the other person's overtake as they want to be the fastest person on the road with traffic parting like the Red Sea for them.
I see plenty of people break both these rules as they seem to try and make a point about keeping left by moving over into small gaps rather than smoothly overtaking a line of vehicles.
It's not hard to know the happy medium between lane hogging and excessively changing lanes and cutting people up.
You can tell those who only keep left as an instruction to others to stay out of their way as when they see someone gaining on them and about to overtake them they move out to block them. They don't keep left to facilitate the other person's overtake as they want to be the fastest person on the road with traffic parting like the Red Sea for them.
Blakewater said:
One of the traits of good driving is ensuring the vehicle you've just overtaken is fully visible in your rearview mirrors before you move in. You also shouldn't encroach on your two second stopping distance before moving out to overtake the next vehicle.
I see plenty of people break both these rules as they seem to try and make a point about keeping left by moving over into small gaps rather than smoothly overtaking a line of vehicles.
It's not hard to know the happy medium between lane hogging and excessively changing lanes and cutting people up.
You can tell those who only keep left as an instruction to others to stay out of their way as when they see someone gaining on them and about to overtake them they move out to block them. They don't keep left to facilitate the other person's overtake as they want to be the fastest person on the road with traffic parting like the Red Sea for them.
I agree. Why not use the ‘advice’ given to us by the ‘authorities’? Those that do not give us practical advice on overtaking. (Note that there are no advanced driver training facilities in New South Wales (NSW), Australia apart from the police; who do not publicise their version of Roadcraft.I see plenty of people break both these rules as they seem to try and make a point about keeping left by moving over into small gaps rather than smoothly overtaking a line of vehicles.
It's not hard to know the happy medium between lane hogging and excessively changing lanes and cutting people up.
You can tell those who only keep left as an instruction to others to stay out of their way as when they see someone gaining on them and about to overtake them they move out to block them. They don't keep left to facilitate the other person's overtake as they want to be the fastest person on the road with traffic parting like the Red Sea for them.
Look at the overtakes with reference to following distances. Here in NSW the recommended following distance is three seconds. In the UK, it’s two.
So, whatever speed you are doing if you are closing up on a vehicle in any lane and getting up to 2/3 seconds away your choice is to reduce speed and follow or overtake.
If you choose the latter and it’s clear behind and safe to move into the lane to your right, you do so. As your speed is greater than the vehicle you are passing you maintain that speed, unless you are catching up with someone in the lane you are now in. If it’s a three-lane road (rare in NSW) you go through the process again, making a decision to stay in that lane or moving into lane three if safe.
Returning back is a matter of being safe and fair to those you have passed. I consider that one should return to the left only if you can give the driver three (two) seconds of distance at their speed (slower than you!). And if one returns to the left they should not be less than 2/3 seconds behind the car in front in that lane. If so the process starts again.
We have exactly the same issues here with lane-hoggers and middle lane militia, but we don’t have so many three lane motorways.
All what I’ve said however goes out the window in traffic when few drivers keep three seconds behind. As overtaking is allowed on roads with marked lanes (‘effin stupid rule!) as soon as one moves out to the right with enough space someone in a ute/Audi/WRX/hot hatch VW, Mercedes or Lexus and occasionally other vehicles, drives at speed in to the space to your left even though there’s ‘nowhere to go’ – but what they then do is move in front of you, indicate, brake for the vehicle in front of them and finally check their mirrors! As I said there’s no advanced driving here!
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