A day out with Reg Local
Discussion
In the same vein as Woody's comments, although I can appreciate there is without doubt the possibility to improve upon virtually every driver's behaviour as regards observation, hazard perception, coordination, concentration etc within the confines of the Law (predominantly speed limits, but the rest too), the elephant in the room is this 'making progress' thing.
Because if operating within the confines of the Law any attempt at increasing the rate of progress will almost immediately crash into whatever speed limit applies at the time. Making more progress than I already do would ultimately necessitate my breaking whatever limit is in place by more than I am already doing. I had one assessment with an IAM instructor and the emphasis was very much on carrying the speed through the corners and smooth driving with limited use of the brakes. The reality was a very pedestrian drive as the corners that we 'maintained' momentum through at 60mph were corners that, had I been alone, I would have routinely taken at speeds between 20 and 60 mph faster.
This is where, in my eyes, the whole advanced driving thing falls flat on its face. In that even the most average of drivers ought to be able to safely move around if they do so within the speed limits.
Because if operating within the confines of the Law any attempt at increasing the rate of progress will almost immediately crash into whatever speed limit applies at the time. Making more progress than I already do would ultimately necessitate my breaking whatever limit is in place by more than I am already doing. I had one assessment with an IAM instructor and the emphasis was very much on carrying the speed through the corners and smooth driving with limited use of the brakes. The reality was a very pedestrian drive as the corners that we 'maintained' momentum through at 60mph were corners that, had I been alone, I would have routinely taken at speeds between 20 and 60 mph faster.
This is where, in my eyes, the whole advanced driving thing falls flat on its face. In that even the most average of drivers ought to be able to safely move around if they do so within the speed limits.
There's three options that you could choose to do with further training:
1. Drive at the rate of progress you were previously doing but with increased safety margins
2. Keep the same safety margin you had previously but at an increased rate of progress
3. Make a balance with both a level of increased rate of progress and increased safety margins
As Reg points out, there are different avenues to "better" driving - Not all of them have the same view points as the IAM.
And similarly there's many bendy roads where you would struggle to maintain the NSL if you go out and search for them.
And whilst you're doing 120 around a corner, are you confident you could stop should a stationary car present itself just around the bend?
1. Drive at the rate of progress you were previously doing but with increased safety margins
2. Keep the same safety margin you had previously but at an increased rate of progress
3. Make a balance with both a level of increased rate of progress and increased safety margins
As Reg points out, there are different avenues to "better" driving - Not all of them have the same view points as the IAM.
And similarly there's many bendy roads where you would struggle to maintain the NSL if you go out and search for them.
And whilst you're doing 120 around a corner, are you confident you could stop should a stationary car present itself just around the bend?
Reg, thanks for the reply. It was a genuine question which I feared would be seen as trolling and I'm glad it didn't get taken that way.
I'm also pleased to see others share my view - I'd imagine the stereotypical IAM member would see my view as arrogant and as my biggest flaw in my driving. Attitude is my biggest flaw and with age this is changing - there's no point arguing over a few inches of tarmac, so what if someone is muscling in and not waiting their turn?! I'm still a sucker for a traffic-light Grand Prix though lol
Kiwi, I genuinely don't believe I could make any more progress or be any safer with more tuition - unless it was Ninja reaction training. One of the things I've learnt from experience is that 'if something could be just around the corner' it probably will be, whether that's someone coming the other way straggling the white line or the Sunday morning peloton being overtaken by a frustrated driver. You can often extend your view into the 'unknown' well in advance though by scanning over the hedge row in advance of being at the corner and where you can't you have to slow to speed you can stop and have another couple of escape routes in mind.
I'm also pleased to see others share my view - I'd imagine the stereotypical IAM member would see my view as arrogant and as my biggest flaw in my driving. Attitude is my biggest flaw and with age this is changing - there's no point arguing over a few inches of tarmac, so what if someone is muscling in and not waiting their turn?! I'm still a sucker for a traffic-light Grand Prix though lol
Kiwi, I genuinely don't believe I could make any more progress or be any safer with more tuition - unless it was Ninja reaction training. One of the things I've learnt from experience is that 'if something could be just around the corner' it probably will be, whether that's someone coming the other way straggling the white line or the Sunday morning peloton being overtaken by a frustrated driver. You can often extend your view into the 'unknown' well in advance though by scanning over the hedge row in advance of being at the corner and where you can't you have to slow to speed you can stop and have another couple of escape routes in mind.
IcedKiwi said:
There's three options that you could choose to do with further training:
1. Drive at the rate of progress you were previously doing but with increased safety margins
2. Keep the same safety margin you had previously but at an increased rate of progress
3. Make a balance with both a level of increased rate of progress and increased safety margins
As Reg points out, there are different avenues to "better" driving - Not all of them have the same view points as the IAM.
And similarly there's many bendy roads where you would struggle to maintain the NSL if you go out and search for them.
And whilst you're doing 120 around a corner, are you confident you could stop should a stationary car present itself just around the bend?
How can an improvement be made as regards driving competence at speeds well in excess of the limit if the training given is all done below, at or only slightly above a limit which is substantially below that? On the understanding that the pupil is inside their comfort zone at the higher speeds already and presents no obvious risk.1. Drive at the rate of progress you were previously doing but with increased safety margins
2. Keep the same safety margin you had previously but at an increased rate of progress
3. Make a balance with both a level of increased rate of progress and increased safety margins
As Reg points out, there are different avenues to "better" driving - Not all of them have the same view points as the IAM.
And similarly there's many bendy roads where you would struggle to maintain the NSL if you go out and search for them.
And whilst you're doing 120 around a corner, are you confident you could stop should a stationary car present itself just around the bend?
cmaguire said:
How can an improvement be made as regards driving competence at speeds well in excess of the limit if the training given is all done below, at or only slightly above a limit which is substantially below that? On the understanding that the pupil is inside their comfort zone at the higher speeds already and presents no obvious risk.
I'm not sure that improving 'competence well in excess of the limit' is an explicit aim of any training I've had access to.In any case, driving safely at speed is dependent on a myriad of skills, all of which can be practised (albeit under less pressure) at lower speeds.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
I'm not sure that improving 'competence well in excess of the limit' is an explicit aim of any training I've had access to.
In any case, driving safely at speed is dependent on a myriad of skills, all of which can be practised (albeit under less pressure) at lower speeds.
And that is the point.In any case, driving safely at speed is dependent on a myriad of skills, all of which can be practised (albeit under less pressure) at lower speeds.
The whole concept of 'Advanced driving' is flawed in that the level of competence required to drive safely and competently within/to the limits is easily attainable and continuously polishing that is pointless, particularly given that there is very little reward bar a certain smugness many of the participants seem to have.
The real problem would appear to me not that there is a need for more drivers to attain this level of 'advancement', but more that incompetent drivers require raising to what should be classed as an acceptable level.
cmaguire said:
the elephant in the room is this 'making progress' thing.
Making progress may sometimes be used as a vernacular for exceeding the limits, but as Mr Gonzales says, no training I've ever had came with a "you will break the limit" rider.Making progress is also about planning far enough ahead to make a smooth path through traffic - approaching hazards to move through them smoothly, not zooming up to them, braking hard to a stop then waiting for a gap which you've missed because you're now in fourth and can't pull away as quickly as is needed, for example. A colleague of mine thinks he's a good driver as he equates "good" to "fast" but the times he's missed gaps in traffic at junctions or roundabouts or overtakes of slower moving traffic means we end up getting later (and more frazzled) to our destination.
Making the second type of progress is a skill in itself. Going fast ( "had I been alone, I would have routinely taken at speeds between 20 and 60 mph faster" ) is less impressive in and of itself as a goal.
dvenman said:
Making progress may sometimes be used as a vernacular for exceeding the limits, but as Mr Gonzales says, no training I've ever had came with a "you will break the limit" rider.
Making progress is also about planning far enough ahead to make a smooth path through traffic - approaching hazards to move through them smoothly, not zooming up to them, braking hard to a stop then waiting for a gap which you've missed because you're now in fourth and can't pull away as quickly as is needed, for example. A colleague of mine thinks he's a good driver as he equates "good" to "fast" but the times he's missed gaps in traffic at junctions or roundabouts or overtakes of slower moving traffic means we end up getting later (and more frazzled) to our destination.
Making the second type of progress is a skill in itself. Going fast ( "had I been alone, I would have routinely taken at speeds between 20 and 60 mph faster" ) is less impressive in and of itself as a goal.
I've never been particularly concerned with impressing people. I just gain no satisfaction or engagement in the process without speed-generated focus. It also has the added bonus of getting to destination earlier when the journey is purely functional.Making progress is also about planning far enough ahead to make a smooth path through traffic - approaching hazards to move through them smoothly, not zooming up to them, braking hard to a stop then waiting for a gap which you've missed because you're now in fourth and can't pull away as quickly as is needed, for example. A colleague of mine thinks he's a good driver as he equates "good" to "fast" but the times he's missed gaps in traffic at junctions or roundabouts or overtakes of slower moving traffic means we end up getting later (and more frazzled) to our destination.
Making the second type of progress is a skill in itself. Going fast ( "had I been alone, I would have routinely taken at speeds between 20 and 60 mph faster" ) is less impressive in and of itself as a goal.
cmaguire said:
The whole concept of 'Advanced driving' is flawed in that the level of competence required to drive safely and competently within/to the limits is easily attainable and continuously polishing that is pointless, particularly given that there is very little reward bar a certain smugness many of the participants seem to have.
You're familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Effect?Where people who are not very good at something tend to think they are excellent at it, and think the activity is easy.
But people who are good at an activity understand its complexities better, and so under-estimate their strength, and think what they're doing is hard.
Advanced Driving isn't easy, whatever the speed. The faster you go, the less granular your analysis can be. If you have found it easy, you may have missed some bits.
The clue is in the title - if it was easy it wouldn't be called advanced.
SpeckledJim said:
You're familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Effect?
Where people who are not very good at something tend to think they are excellent at it, and think the activity is easy.
But people who are good at an activity understand its complexities better, and so under-estimate their strength, and think what they're doing is hard.
Advanced Driving isn't easy, whatever the speed. The faster you go, the less granular your analysis can be. If you have found it easy, you may have missed some bits.
The clue is in the title - if it was easy it wouldn't be called advanced.
I often merely read this sub-forum as it has a habit of providing some amusement. One thing that does stand out somewhat amongst many of its' participants is what might be a kind of autistic trait, in that they fixate and overthink what are often the most inconsequential and rudimentary of tasks. It really isn't that hard you know, however much you dress it up to be. Where people who are not very good at something tend to think they are excellent at it, and think the activity is easy.
But people who are good at an activity understand its complexities better, and so under-estimate their strength, and think what they're doing is hard.
Advanced Driving isn't easy, whatever the speed. The faster you go, the less granular your analysis can be. If you have found it easy, you may have missed some bits.
The clue is in the title - if it was easy it wouldn't be called advanced.
SpeckledJim said:
cmaguire said:
The whole concept of 'Advanced driving' is flawed in that the level of competence required to drive safely and competently within/to the limits is easily attainable and continuously polishing that is pointless, particularly given that there is very little reward bar a certain smugness many of the participants seem to have.
You're familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Effect?Where people who are not very good at something tend to think they are excellent at it, and think the activity is easy.
But people who are good at an activity understand its complexities better, and so under-estimate their strength, and think what they're doing is hard.
Advanced Driving isn't easy, whatever the speed. The faster you go, the less granular your analysis can be. If you have found it easy, you may have missed some bits.
The clue is in the title - if it was easy it wouldn't be called advanced.
With regard to 'making progress' I do accept that this is not purely about the use of high speeds on the open road: it is also about moving efficiently through traffic at lowish speeds in built-up areas, and elsewhere.. Having said that, it has always been my view that without the ability to safely use high speed on the open road (and this means much higher speeds than the NSL on single carriageway roads, not just belting down a dual carriageway) one should not be regarded as an 'advanced' driver, or even a good driver, though I accept that many people will not share that view.
Once again this is perhaps indicative of my failure to move with the times, but I do feel that with the arrival of the NSL in the 1960s, advanced driving was, to a degree, downgraded, never to fully recover. An important element of good and expert driving was simply removed from the syllabus.
cmaguire said:
SpeckledJim said:
You're familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Effect?
Where people who are not very good at something tend to think they are excellent at it, and think the activity is easy.
But people who are good at an activity understand its complexities better, and so under-estimate their strength, and think what they're doing is hard.
Advanced Driving isn't easy, whatever the speed. The faster you go, the less granular your analysis can be. If you have found it easy, you may have missed some bits.
The clue is in the title - if it was easy it wouldn't be called advanced.
I often merely read this sub-forum as it has a habit of providing some amusement. One thing that does stand out somewhat amongst many of its' participants is what might be a kind of autistic trait, in that they fixate and overthink what are often the most inconsequential and rudimentary of tasks. It really isn't that hard you know, however much you dress it up to be. Where people who are not very good at something tend to think they are excellent at it, and think the activity is easy.
But people who are good at an activity understand its complexities better, and so under-estimate their strength, and think what they're doing is hard.
Advanced Driving isn't easy, whatever the speed. The faster you go, the less granular your analysis can be. If you have found it easy, you may have missed some bits.
The clue is in the title - if it was easy it wouldn't be called advanced.
SpeckledJim said:
cmaguire said:
SpeckledJim said:
You're familiar with the Dunning-Kruger Effect?
Where people who are not very good at something tend to think they are excellent at it, and think the activity is easy.
But people who are good at an activity understand its complexities better, and so under-estimate their strength, and think what they're doing is hard.
Advanced Driving isn't easy, whatever the speed. The faster you go, the less granular your analysis can be. If you have found it easy, you may have missed some bits.
The clue is in the title - if it was easy it wouldn't be called advanced.
I often merely read this sub-forum as it has a habit of providing some amusement. One thing that does stand out somewhat amongst many of its' participants is what might be a kind of autistic trait, in that they fixate and overthink what are often the most inconsequential and rudimentary of tasks. It really isn't that hard you know, however much you dress it up to be. Where people who are not very good at something tend to think they are excellent at it, and think the activity is easy.
But people who are good at an activity understand its complexities better, and so under-estimate their strength, and think what they're doing is hard.
Advanced Driving isn't easy, whatever the speed. The faster you go, the less granular your analysis can be. If you have found it easy, you may have missed some bits.
The clue is in the title - if it was easy it wouldn't be called advanced.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
A question then, if I may.
Would you be able to list a couple of activities that you would consider demanding enough to require practice to be done well? Something like gardening, playing an instrument, golf?
Bike/car racer.Would you be able to list a couple of activities that you would consider demanding enough to require practice to be done well? Something like gardening, playing an instrument, golf?
Circus acrobat.
Chess Grand master
etc.
I could list plenty, and they would all require the participants to be far more on the ball than an individual using the Public Highways. The competition just isn't that high, and doesn't need to be. I want a return on my investment. At legal speeds that is never coming.
cmaguire said:
Bike/car racer.
Circus acrobat.
Chess Grand master
etc.
I could list plenty, and they would all require the participants to be far more on the ball than an individual using the Public Highways. The competition just isn't that high, and doesn't need to be. I want a return on my investment. At legal speeds that is never coming.
OK - it's looking like we're going to have to agree to disagree on how much effort it's worth putting into road driving.Circus acrobat.
Chess Grand master
etc.
I could list plenty, and they would all require the participants to be far more on the ball than an individual using the Public Highways. The competition just isn't that high, and doesn't need to be. I want a return on my investment. At legal speeds that is never coming.
I accept that many (possibly the majority) regard driving as the tedious thing that happens between breakfast and arriving at the office.
I've personally found that the process of becoming a better driver has required a unique combination of physical and mental skills. Pursuing it has introduced me to mechanics, psychology, coaching theory and, weirdly, even introduced me to the fields of academic research and public speaking. I've also had to learn a lot about myself, and why I make the decisions I do.
I'm going to guess that most PHers sit somewhere between these two extremes, and that's fine. Fixating on and overthinking it at this autistic level is always going to be a niche interest and while I'm happy to help people who want to know about it, I'm not going to tell anyone that they must do the same.
Well, a couple of weeks ago I had a mostly enjoyable day out with Reg.
It's something I've been meaning to do for a while in the car, I've done advanced riding training on my motorbike and felt the benefit.
I was slightly concerned about not learning much, with the bikes there are an awful lot of options when it comes to road positioning, braking etc, less so with the car.
The day started well (but very wet) I drove for a while on a mixture of roads while Reg sat there not saying a huge amount, then after a stop for a brew we discussed my driving and what I would like to work on.
He got significantly more chatty after the stop!
As the day progressed he helped me to smooth my cornering inputs and allow more speed to be carried.
Then the no so good bit, after lunch I got a warning about power steering fluid being low. Nursed the car to a nearby village and found a rainbow coming out the back of it.
This turned out to be one of the lines going to the rear active anti roll bars on my BMW 645. Got the car recovered (from near Kendal to Aberdeen), got a taxi back to the hotel (£140) then flights up the road the next day (£290).
To add insult to injury the recovery company damaged the bumper and I got to spend a week arguing about it with them.
To sum up, instruction was good and relaxed and I do feel it's helped me. The important part for me was that Reg could explain why doing something different would be better rather than just following the instruction blindly.
At 40 I've have had little or no instruction since I passed my test at 17, I think it's good to have someone look at your driving and tell you ways you can improve from time to time as it can stop bad habits and make you think more.
More learning is almost always better. I certainly got what I was looking for from the experience.
Apart from a borked car of course (mechanically fixed and in the process of being painted) that bit wasn't so brilliant.
It's something I've been meaning to do for a while in the car, I've done advanced riding training on my motorbike and felt the benefit.
I was slightly concerned about not learning much, with the bikes there are an awful lot of options when it comes to road positioning, braking etc, less so with the car.
The day started well (but very wet) I drove for a while on a mixture of roads while Reg sat there not saying a huge amount, then after a stop for a brew we discussed my driving and what I would like to work on.
He got significantly more chatty after the stop!
As the day progressed he helped me to smooth my cornering inputs and allow more speed to be carried.
Then the no so good bit, after lunch I got a warning about power steering fluid being low. Nursed the car to a nearby village and found a rainbow coming out the back of it.
This turned out to be one of the lines going to the rear active anti roll bars on my BMW 645. Got the car recovered (from near Kendal to Aberdeen), got a taxi back to the hotel (£140) then flights up the road the next day (£290).
To add insult to injury the recovery company damaged the bumper and I got to spend a week arguing about it with them.
To sum up, instruction was good and relaxed and I do feel it's helped me. The important part for me was that Reg could explain why doing something different would be better rather than just following the instruction blindly.
At 40 I've have had little or no instruction since I passed my test at 17, I think it's good to have someone look at your driving and tell you ways you can improve from time to time as it can stop bad habits and make you think more.
More learning is almost always better. I certainly got what I was looking for from the experience.
Apart from a borked car of course (mechanically fixed and in the process of being painted) that bit wasn't so brilliant.
Edited by Speed addicted on Friday 7th April 10:49
On ‘who assesses the assessors’; I oversee driver ability/welfare/training/standards for a large city council. We have 1,200 drivers.
Every time I give a demonstration drive or even give someone a lift my driving is being ‘assessed’. Quite often the passenger is observing my driving waiting for me to make a mistake, regardless of whether in a car or garbage truck.
This demonstrates the value of a demonstration drive because the ‘observer’ is observing to a much higher standard that if they were driving. This helps an instructor/co-driver/tutor/coach etc. maintain a high standard. I also get ‘setup’ by the guys who I oversee. The other day I had to deliver a garbage truck to a depot. By ‘coincidence’ all drivers were back for their smoko break – and ready to watch me manoeuvre into the depot and park up – even measuring the distance from the truck tyres to the parking space lines to see if they were all equal.
I did all my ‘advanced’ training in the UK – over a thousand hours if I include cars and trucks (IAM, LSD, army (police), HPC plus ADI and others). I have completed most courses in NSW Australia (nothing compares to UK!). Because of this I try to get re-assessed when I visit the UK. My next visit is later this year (Reg I’ll be contacting you soon!).
But the most interesting situation, or test, of my driving ability was when I drove someone who is a lobbyist for cycling and, to put it mildly does not like motor vehicles and drivers in general. She usually only uses public transport if she cannot ride on of her bikes. Her comment, “I do like being driven by Len!” to me is of equal value to any comments from other advanced drivers/instructors etc.
Every time I give a demonstration drive or even give someone a lift my driving is being ‘assessed’. Quite often the passenger is observing my driving waiting for me to make a mistake, regardless of whether in a car or garbage truck.
This demonstrates the value of a demonstration drive because the ‘observer’ is observing to a much higher standard that if they were driving. This helps an instructor/co-driver/tutor/coach etc. maintain a high standard. I also get ‘setup’ by the guys who I oversee. The other day I had to deliver a garbage truck to a depot. By ‘coincidence’ all drivers were back for their smoko break – and ready to watch me manoeuvre into the depot and park up – even measuring the distance from the truck tyres to the parking space lines to see if they were all equal.
I did all my ‘advanced’ training in the UK – over a thousand hours if I include cars and trucks (IAM, LSD, army (police), HPC plus ADI and others). I have completed most courses in NSW Australia (nothing compares to UK!). Because of this I try to get re-assessed when I visit the UK. My next visit is later this year (Reg I’ll be contacting you soon!).
But the most interesting situation, or test, of my driving ability was when I drove someone who is a lobbyist for cycling and, to put it mildly does not like motor vehicles and drivers in general. She usually only uses public transport if she cannot ride on of her bikes. Her comment, “I do like being driven by Len!” to me is of equal value to any comments from other advanced drivers/instructors etc.
Len Woodman said:
...the most interesting situation, or test, of my driving ability was when I drove someone who is a lobbyist for cycling and, to put it mildly does not like motor vehicles and drivers in general. She usually only uses public transport if she cannot ride on of her bikes. Her comment, “I do like being driven by Len!” to me is of equal value to any comments from other advanced drivers/instructors etc.
Actually, when a favourable comment comes from a normal passenger, i.e. not a driving expert or enthusiast, I think it is a pretty good indication that the driving is quite good. To me, knowing that a passenger feels safe and comfortable, and can relax and have confidence in the driver is very pleasing. I have at least had that happen to me a few times... cmaguire said:
In the same vein as Woody's comments, although I can appreciate there is without doubt the possibility to improve upon virtually every driver's behaviour as regards observation, hazard perception, coordination, concentration etc within the confines of the Law (predominantly speed limits, but the rest too), the elephant in the room is this 'making progress' thing.
Because if operating within the confines of the Law any attempt at increasing the rate of progress will almost immediately crash into whatever speed limit applies at the time. Making more progress than I already do would ultimately necessitate my breaking whatever limit is in place by more than I am already doing. I had one assessment with an IAM instructor and the emphasis was very much on carrying the speed through the corners and smooth driving with limited use of the brakes. The reality was a very pedestrian drive as the corners that we 'maintained' momentum through at 60mph were corners that, had I been alone, I would have routinely taken at speeds between 20 and 60 mph faster.
This is where, in my eyes, the whole advanced driving thing falls flat on its face. In that even the most average of drivers ought to be able to safely move around if they do so within the speed limits.
I like this post because what is the driving test for if you can't move safely around? If I put my foot down a little bit my missus soon put me right if she is in the car.Speed camaras overcrowded roads driving is a pastime going from A to B.Because if operating within the confines of the Law any attempt at increasing the rate of progress will almost immediately crash into whatever speed limit applies at the time. Making more progress than I already do would ultimately necessitate my breaking whatever limit is in place by more than I am already doing. I had one assessment with an IAM instructor and the emphasis was very much on carrying the speed through the corners and smooth driving with limited use of the brakes. The reality was a very pedestrian drive as the corners that we 'maintained' momentum through at 60mph were corners that, had I been alone, I would have routinely taken at speeds between 20 and 60 mph faster.
This is where, in my eyes, the whole advanced driving thing falls flat on its face. In that even the most average of drivers ought to be able to safely move around if they do so within the speed limits.
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