IAM test in an automatic with left foot braking?

[BertBert]

PhilAsia said:

I prefer to use LFB and a sustained rev to "encourage" an earlier (but smoother) change than pre-selected change points allow. But, for the same reason, you can H&T in an auto, yes.

The timing of the gas is extremely important though.

Tells us how you HnT in an auto then.

[PhilAsia]

BertBert said:

PhilAsia said:

I prefer to use LFB and a sustained rev to "encourage" an earlier (but smoother) change than pre-selected change points allow. But, for the same reason, you can H&T in an auto, yes.

The timing of the gas is extremely important though.

Tells us how you HnT in an auto then.

Brake, and carefully time blip as you select a lower gear.

BTW, my initial answer was answer the question, not as an indication on whether it was acceptable to IAM.

EDIT: it is not something that is required often, but can be useful where a ""hold" gear is warranted and required earlier than the fixed lower gear change point.

Edited by PhilAsia on Friday 3rd March 07:05

[BertBert]

Thanks, can't quite see it, but will give it a go!

[waremark]

PhilAsia said:

Brake, and carefully time blip as you select a lower gear.

I have done it (I've forgotten, are we talking H & T or LFB? I used to do it occasionally with H & T in an E92 M3 with DCT which in spite of not having a clutch pedal had a manual style brake pedal, I never understood why BMW didn't give it an auto style brake pedal, so much better for LFB). But in most paddle shift cars, if you change down under braking the down-change is pretty smooth without the need to open the throttle.

I have a sporty car in which you get glorious automated blips.

[PhilAsia]

waremark said:

PhilAsia said:

Brake, and carefully time blip as you select a lower gear.

I have done it (I've forgotten, are we talking H & T or LFB? I used to do it occasionally with H & T in an E92 M3 with DCT which in spite of not having a clutch pedal had a manual style brake pedal, I never understood why BMW didn't give it an auto style brake pedal, so much better for LFB). But in most paddle shift cars, if you change down under braking the down-change is pretty smooth without the need to open the throttle.

I have a sporty car in which you get glorious automated blips.

Either H&T and/or LFB. In essence it is the same.

You are absolutely right of course. In the past it was a lot easier as the majority of autos were torque converter 'boxes with fewer ratios. With the introduction of a larger number of ratios, DCT pre-selector technology, auto blips, VAG fuel cutting, etc, the option to "force" a more suitable lower gear is becoming evermore limited due to technology.

Increased ratios suiting more conditions and - in some cases - clever GPS systems that read the topography of maps and electronics that react to driver inputs, autoblips that are far superior to human inputs, making them unnecessary and, if you can turn the autoblip function off, not only are the changes less mechanically sympathetic, but they are often linked to stability control systems, which if turned off, makes the vehicle less safe.

Once AI has been programmed to predict rather than react to potential danger, lovers of motoring are dooooomed, Cap'n Mainwaring...

[waremark]

PhilAsia said:

Increased ratios suiting more conditions and - in some cases - clever GPS systems that read the topography of maps and electronics that react to driver inputs, autoblips that are far superior to human inputs, making them unnecessary and, if you can turn the autoblip function off, not only are the changes less mechanically sympathetic, but they are often linked to stability control systems, which if turned off, makes the vehicle less safe.

I don't suppose we could be getting off topic here could we?

In my manual M2 Comp I have had the autoblip coded out (I enormously prefer the car without it). I think it may have changed the operation of the stability control system but I am uncertain.

[PhilAsia]

waremark said:

PhilAsia said:

Increased ratios suiting more conditions and - in some cases - clever GPS systems that read the topography of maps and electronics that react to driver inputs, autoblips that are far superior to human inputs, making them unnecessary and, if you can turn the autoblip function off, not only are the changes less mechanically sympathetic, but they are often linked to stability control systems, which if turned off, makes the vehicle less safe.

I don't suppose we could be getting off topic here could we?

Indeed we have. My apologies to the OP and other readers seeking IAM requirements' answers.

waremark said:

In my manual M2 Comp I have had the autoblip coded out (I enormously prefer the car without it). I think it may have changed the operation of the stability control system but I am uncertain.

Interesting code change. I prefer a vehicle without it too, even though my inputs are inferior. I hope you are never placed in a position to find out the second point. Can you ask?

[DashDriver]

saladdays said:

I'm considering an IAM test. My car is an automatic with a DSG box. I also brake with my left foot.

Is it acceptable to take the IAM Advanced Driver course with left foot braking? How is left foot braking perceived by instructors?

Does your dsg have launch control? Would you use that to get a fast launch and make good progress in a national speed limit?

Also once moving into 60 70 zones if be made switching to sport mode on the gear box and noting it in your commentary can be an advantage. Are you confident to manual change gears when needed?

I have not heard of anyone left foot breaking on their first IAM let alone in an auto or semi auto I wouldn’t get involved in it with an auto. Left door breaking a is track technique really or fast road in a manual. It shouldn’t be in your tool bag until your have got a good pass at IAM in any event

[waremark]

DashDriver said:

Left door breaking a is track technique really or fast road in a manual. It shouldn’t be in your tool bag until your have got a good pass at IAM in any event

I haven't heard of that one - how does breaking the left door help with braking?

Sorry to be facetious, but to respond to the point being made ... If you are competent at left foot braking and do it well, it should not distract from your score on an IAM test. If you are not yet competent at it, I would agree that it would best not to start practising while you are also practising for your IAM test.

[DashDriver]

waremark said:

I haven't heard of that one - how does breaking the left door help with braking?

Sorry to be facetious, but to respond to the point being made ... If you are competent at left foot braking and do it well, it should not distract from your score on an IAM test. If you are not yet competent at it, I would agree that it would best not to start practising while you are also practising for your IAM test.

Waremark, yes indeed its a race - rally technique not something I find very useful on the road in my opinion, the idea being you right foot only does the throttle. Its to do with balancing a car through a corner and not lifting off the throttle but keeping it on and balancing the car and not allowing trailing throttle oversteer.

wiki has a section on it and they advise against doing it on the road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-foot_braking

[dvenman]

DashDriver said:

Waremark, yes indeed its a race - rally technique not something I find very useful on the road in my opinion, the idea being you right foot only does the throttle. Its to do with balancing a car through a corner and not lifting off the throttle but keeping it on and balancing the car and not allowing trailing throttle oversteer.

wiki has a section on it and they advise against doing it on the road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-foot_braking

I know waremark is well aware of the technique, its genesis, and use cases.

Wikipedia may advise against it but I'm going to plump with my advice and coaching from folks who've used it operationally on the road. The right tool, for the right use, at the right time. If I'd not received proper instruction in its implementation, use and the cautions associated I'd never have used it. And I use it sparingly - most recently in a manual on a road where no gear changes were required for quite some time, and LFB allowed a much smoother transition between brake and gas.

And, as a counter example. When I was being introduced to it on the road, we rounded a bend only to encounter an opposite direction vehicle on our side of the road. It's surprising how quickly you get to use two foot braking...

[DashDriver]

dvenman said:

I know waremark is well aware of the technique, its genesis, and use cases.

Wikipedia may advise against it but I'm going to plump with my advice and coaching from folks who've used it operationally on the road. The right tool, for the right use, at the right time. If I'd not received proper instruction in its implementation, use and the cautions associated I'd never have used it. And I use it sparingly - most recently in a manual on a road where no gear changes were required for quite some time, and LFB allowed a much smoother transition between brake and gas.

And, as a counter example. When I was being introduced to it on the road, we rounded a bend only to encounter an opposite direction vehicle on our side of the road. It's surprising how quickly you get to use two foot braking...

Thanks I am new and don't know waremark.

When you say operationally do you mean for police driving? I have done blue light training as well and it was not something we were taught, heel and toe was but not left foot braking. When you say its sounds yes at speed it may well have an advantage in certain circumstances. When I was involved with associates mostly ADIs it was hard to teach such techniques many just wanted a badge to validate their driving. Teaching straight lining was challenging as well as it goes against DVSA thinking.

The original question posed by the OP was asking in relation to IAM test and it may well be their first one, (last I checked IAM don't have mandatory retesting) so in relation to the test if the OP is very accomplished and can do it inline with system it may well work. For a first Advance assessment I would be tempted to leave it personally, work on it afterwards and get it smooth and systematic. So I agree these techniques can be sound on the road, but everything needs to be mastered before applying to a test.

Modern Semi Automatic Gearbox

On a DSG or modern semi auto (of which I have one) I would suggest the OP work on manually holding gears through bends and other hazards were there is benefit and also utilising the the sport mode when outside of built up areas on national speed limit as it can offer better performance and flexibility when making progress and overtaking.


Left Foot Braking - DSG

If you brake and accelerate at the same time other than in Sport MODE with ESC in Sport (Off) in models with launch control you will put undue stress, heat/wear on the clutch packs which are pricey to replace.

So for the life of the DSG and for system separation of braking and accelerating (for SYSTEM) is very important.

Edited by DashDriver on Tuesday 28th March 13:28

[PhilAsia]

DashDriver said:

dvenman said:

I know waremark is well aware of the technique, its genesis, and use cases.

Wikipedia may advise against it but I'm going to plump with my advice and coaching from folks who've used it operationally on the road. The right tool, for the right use, at the right time. If I'd not received proper instruction in its implementation, use and the cautions associated I'd never have used it. And I use it sparingly - most recently in a manual on a road where no gear changes were required for quite some time, and LFB allowed a much smoother transition between brake and gas.

And, as a counter example. When I was being introduced to it on the road, we rounded a bend only to encounter an opposite direction vehicle on our side of the road. It's surprising how quickly you get to use two foot braking...

Thanks I am new and don't know waremark.

When you say operationally do you mean for police driving? I have done blue light training as well and it was not something we were taught, heel and toe was but not left foot braking. When you say its sounds yes at speed it may well have an advantage in certain circumstances. When I was involved with associates mostly ADIs it was hard to teach such techniques many just wanted a badge to validate their driving. Teaching straight lining was challenging as well as it goes against DVSA thinking.

The original question posed by the OP was asking in relation to IAM test and it may well be their first one, (last I checked IAM don't have mandatory retesting) so in relation to the test if the OP is very accomplished and can do it inline with system it may well work. For a first Advance assessment I would be tempted to leave it personally, work on it afterwards and get it smooth and systematic. So I agree these techniques can be sound on the road, but everything needs to be mastered before applying to a test.

Modern Semi Automatic Gearbox

On a DSG or modern semi auto (of which I have one) I would suggest the OP work on manually holding gears through bends and other hazards were there is benefit and also utilising the the sport mode when outside of built up areas on national speed limit as it can offer better performance and flexibility when making progress and overtaking.


Left Foot Braking - DSG

If you brake and accelerate at the same time other than in Sport MODE with ESC in Sport (Off) in models with launch control you will put undue stress, heat/wear on the clutch packs which are pricey to replace.

So for the life of the DSG and for system separation of braking and accelerating (for SYSTEM) is very important.

Edited by DashDriver on Tuesday 28th March 13:28

Your cockpit drill should cover your knowledge and understanding of the vehicle, its dynamics and which techniques can be effected to enhance your drive without detriment.

[Ron240]

I think it is ridiculous (and even irresponsible) that regardless of the type of gearbox some of you guys advocate left foot braking for normal everyday road driving.

I anticipate some will attempt to belittle or even insult me for this comment, but it is my opinion, I am entiled to it, and you will not change my mind.

[johnao]

Ron240 said:

I think it is ridiculous (and even irresponsible) that regardless of the type of gearbox some of you guys advocate left foot braking for normal everyday road driving.

I would be interested to understand why you think it would be ridiculous and irresponsible, thanks.

[cliffords]

Ron240 said:

I think it is ridiculous (and even irresponsible) that regardless of the type of gearbox some of you guys advocate left foot braking for normal everyday road driving.

I anticipate some will attempt to belittle or even insult me for this comment, but it is my opinion, I am entiled to it, and you will not change my mind.

I agree with your comment. We are talking about driving on public roads with speed limits , other road users and pedestrians. This thread with debate on making progress and heal and toe etc. It just looks pathetic.
Proffesional drivers on a track may employ these techniques. There is no place for this on the public road . It's just an indication of concerns over genetalia size if you feel you have to do this .

[PhilAsia]

cliffords said:

Ron240 said:

I think it is ridiculous (and even irresponsible) that regardless of the type of gearbox some of you guys advocate left foot braking for normal everyday road driving.

I anticipate some will attempt to belittle or even insult me for this comment, but it is my opinion, I am entiled to it, and you will not change my mind.

I agree with your comment. We are talking about driving on public roads with speed limits , other road users and pedestrians. This thread with debate on making progress and heal and toe etc. It just looks pathetic.
Proffesional drivers on a track may employ these techniques. There is no place for this on the public road . It's just an indication of concerns over genetalia size if you feel you have to do this .

I am not sure how a driver that is competent at LFB and chooses to do so in order to make the drive safer through shorter reaction times and a more balanced vehicle, etc at safe road speeds should be considered reckless.

I posit that a driver that IS fully competent at LFB and chooses NOT to make their drive safer through shorter reaction times and a more balanced vehicle, etc at safe road speeds could be considered reckless for not usilising the safer technique.

Obviously, drivers can employ whichever foot they feel competent with. As long as the drive is made the safest possible, then the best possible outcomes will ensue.

[FiF]

Find it quite amusing that some posters immediately assume that LFB means that the driver is only using it in the same manner as it might be used in race and rally situations, therefore go on to say it has no place at any point in road driving.

As others have stated the devil is in the detail on exactly how the controls are operated in practical application, ie the effect on the vehicle vs the situation, that will be the ultimate deciding factor, as it should be.

[millik]

FiF said:

Find it quite amusing that some posters immediately assume that LFB means that the driver is only using it in the same manner as it might be used in race and rally situations, therefore go on to say it has no place at any point in road driving.

As others have stated the devil is in the detail on exactly how the controls are operated in practical application, ie the effect on the vehicle vs the situation, that will be the ultimate deciding factor, as it should be.

Perhaps call it ‘braking with the left foot’ as opposed to ‘ left foot braking‘?

[waremark]

Ron240 said:

I think it is ridiculous (and even irresponsible) that regardless of the type of gearbox some of you guys advocate left foot braking for normal everyday road driving.

I anticipate some will attempt to belittle or even insult me for this comment, but it is my opinion, I am entiled to it, and you will not change my mind.

I for one would like to understand your reasons for this opinion - with which most of the best road drivers I know disagree.