Use of handbrake in driving test?
Discussion
The handbrake thing is in a weird spot right now because it seems the teachings are different depending on transmission. My wife passed her test as recently as last year in an automatic and of course there is zero handbrake use except when parking, that car had a hold though.
For manual I am pretty sure the same still applies when it comes to hill starts, but I don't think they really care about handbrake for extended stops? What exactly is an extended stop? 1 minute? I think using the handbrake at that point is a no brainer because it's a bit uncomfortable to be sitting on the clutch and the brake for extended periods of time, at least for me.
One thing that caught someone out I know is use of the handbrake at a stop sign. It's not required but it is to prove that the vehicle has 100% stopped and it wasn't a rolling take off.
It just so happens his examiner wanted to see that handbrake on, and he failed despite having stopped. Apparently that's a thing that particular examiner does. Some like overzealous blindspot checks, some mark you down if they feel they have to hold onto something when you corner, some are just dicks. Roll of the dice and if your instructor has been working there for a long time, they will tell you what to watch out for with particular examiners.
For manual I am pretty sure the same still applies when it comes to hill starts, but I don't think they really care about handbrake for extended stops? What exactly is an extended stop? 1 minute? I think using the handbrake at that point is a no brainer because it's a bit uncomfortable to be sitting on the clutch and the brake for extended periods of time, at least for me.
One thing that caught someone out I know is use of the handbrake at a stop sign. It's not required but it is to prove that the vehicle has 100% stopped and it wasn't a rolling take off.
It just so happens his examiner wanted to see that handbrake on, and he failed despite having stopped. Apparently that's a thing that particular examiner does. Some like overzealous blindspot checks, some mark you down if they feel they have to hold onto something when you corner, some are just dicks. Roll of the dice and if your instructor has been working there for a long time, they will tell you what to watch out for with particular examiners.
Impossible to know, but I was certainly taught to use the handbrake on a stop sign when I learnt back in 2004.
Also that you put the handbrake on is stopped at the lights more than a moment (30secs?) both to extinguish brakelights and also should you be rear ended, to avoid the car traveling/rolling more than needed while you where otherwise engaged!
I don't think the changes in teaching make any of that invalid, and would be supprised if doing it in a test would result in a fail?
Also as said, make sure you mirror use is exaggerated. One suggestion was each to slightly de-tune your mirrors so you had to move your head a little to use them!
Also that you put the handbrake on is stopped at the lights more than a moment (30secs?) both to extinguish brakelights and also should you be rear ended, to avoid the car traveling/rolling more than needed while you where otherwise engaged!
I don't think the changes in teaching make any of that invalid, and would be supprised if doing it in a test would result in a fail?
Also as said, make sure you mirror use is exaggerated. One suggestion was each to slightly de-tune your mirrors so you had to move your head a little to use them!
dhutch said:
Impossible to know, but I was certainly taught to use the handbrake on a stop sign when I learnt back in 2004.
Also that you put the handbrake on is stopped at the lights more than a moment (30secs?) both to extinguish brakelights and also should you be rear ended, to avoid the car traveling/rolling more than needed while you where otherwise engaged!
I don't think the changes in teaching make any of that invalid, and would be supprised if doing it in a test would result in a fail?
Also as said, make sure you mirror use is exaggerated. One suggestion was each to slightly de-tune your mirrors so you had to move your head a little to use them!
Was the same taught to me, although we are going back a bit! I can remember being told to put the handbrake on at every 'stop' on a three point turn, too. And at the traffic lights no matter what. Bloody indicators had to be used even if no-one was behind and every 5 seconds I was to look in all mirrors.Also that you put the handbrake on is stopped at the lights more than a moment (30secs?) both to extinguish brakelights and also should you be rear ended, to avoid the car traveling/rolling more than needed while you where otherwise engaged!
I don't think the changes in teaching make any of that invalid, and would be supprised if doing it in a test would result in a fail?
Also as said, make sure you mirror use is exaggerated. One suggestion was each to slightly de-tune your mirrors so you had to move your head a little to use them!
Funny thing is when you are 17 and your entire world is about getting your licence, you take the test so, so seriously those habits become part of your reflexes.
Well OK I don't use the handbrake in slow traffic jams but yes, at lights and longer stops. I still signal when no-one is around and I do indeed keep moving my head like a woodpecker, checking out all the mirrors.
TheLoraxxZeus said:
The handbrake thing is in a weird spot right now because it seems the teachings are different depending on transmission. My wife passed her test as recently as last year in an automatic and of course there is zero handbrake use except when parking, that car had a hold though.
For manual I am pretty sure the same still applies when it comes to hill starts, but I don't think they really care about handbrake for extended stops? What exactly is an extended stop? 1 minute? I think using the handbrake at that point is a no brainer because it's a bit uncomfortable to be sitting on the clutch and the brake for extended periods of time, at least for me.
One thing that caught someone out I know is use of the handbrake at a stop sign. It's not required but it is to prove that the vehicle has 100% stopped and it wasn't a rolling take off.
It just so happens his examiner wanted to see that handbrake on, and he failed despite having stopped. Apparently that's a thing that particular examiner does. Some like overzealous blindspot checks, some mark you down if they feel they have to hold onto something when you corner, some are just dicks. Roll of the dice and if your instructor has been working there for a long time, they will tell you what to watch out for with particular examiners.
You wouldn't fail for not putting a handbrake on at a stop sign! There were other factors involved.For manual I am pretty sure the same still applies when it comes to hill starts, but I don't think they really care about handbrake for extended stops? What exactly is an extended stop? 1 minute? I think using the handbrake at that point is a no brainer because it's a bit uncomfortable to be sitting on the clutch and the brake for extended periods of time, at least for me.
One thing that caught someone out I know is use of the handbrake at a stop sign. It's not required but it is to prove that the vehicle has 100% stopped and it wasn't a rolling take off.
It just so happens his examiner wanted to see that handbrake on, and he failed despite having stopped. Apparently that's a thing that particular examiner does. Some like overzealous blindspot checks, some mark you down if they feel they have to hold onto something when you corner, some are just dicks. Roll of the dice and if your instructor has been working there for a long time, they will tell you what to watch out for with particular examiners.
I also passed my test 30 years ago and was taught to apply the handbrake and put the car in neutral at a stop. The reasoning was that if you were hit from behind, your foot could come off the foot brake pushing the vehicle into pedestrians or traffic. My daughter was indeed taught as your son was but I still apply the handbrake if there is any risk of being rear ended. BMW apparently agrees with the new way; my 4 year old BMW M2 Competition just got an advisory on its first MOT for handbrake effectiveness just three weeks after a main dealer service. According to the tester, it has been used beyond its design limit. The car has 15,000 miles on it 😊.
jondude said:
Was the same taught to me, although we are going back a bit! I can remember being told to put the handbrake on at every 'stop' on a three point turn, too. And at the traffic lights no matter what. Bloody indicators had to be used even if no-one was behind and every 5 seconds I was to look in all mirrors.
Same here, if you were stopped at the lights it was handbrake on and into Neutral. If you stalled the car, handbrake on and into neutral before turning the key. I have watched a few of these videos https://www.youtube.com/@ClearviewDriving and I am amazed to see the pupils just keep the car in first with the clutch down, holding it on the footbrake at lights and junctions. When they stall they literally put the clutch in and start the car in gear.Have to say I am sure my teen driving lessons would have been a much more pleasant experience if she was my instructor rather than the middle aged chain smoking (during lessons) man I had.
Joey Deacon said:
jondude said:
Was the same taught to me, although we are going back a bit! I can remember being told to put the handbrake on at every 'stop' on a three point turn, too. And at the traffic lights no matter what. Bloody indicators had to be used even if no-one was behind and every 5 seconds I was to look in all mirrors.
Perhaps the instruction was not clear, or was taken as must rather than advisory. I would instruct similarly but always with a modifier. Something along the lines of "if a pause becomes a wait, then handbrake and select neutral", "on a turn in the road, apply the handbrake if you are unsure whether there is a camber", "check the mirrors every five seconds approximately, or more or less frequently as the situation demands".......this would then be followed by the reasoning and examples, etc.Joey Deacon said:
Same here, if you were stopped at the lights it was handbrake on and into Neutral. If you stalled the car, handbrake on and into neutral before turning the key. I have watched a few of these videos https://www.youtube.com/@ClearviewDriving and I am amazed to see the pupils just keep the car in first with the clutch down, holding it on the footbrake at lights and junctions. When they stall they literally put the clutch in and start the car in gear.
Have to say I am sure my teen driving lessons would have been a much more pleasant experience if she was my instructor rather than the middle aged chain smoking (during lessons) man I had.
When my students stalled in the 80s, they knew that they would not be failed if the road was flat and their vehicle did not roll. So starting in gear with no handbrake was fine. Holding on the footbrake and in gear would have been a no-no, except where the pupil was the lead driver, and light phases were unable to be seen for the other ATL.Have to say I am sure my teen driving lessons would have been a much more pleasant experience if she was my instructor rather than the middle aged chain smoking (during lessons) man I had.
It is not unusual to hear that instruction is unclear, or incorrect. All instructors do it. In my formative years I was also under misapprehension regarding many techniques. My first awakening was as a Provisional Instructor, when I was made aware that that "rotational/hand-over-hand" steering was acceptable when performed correctly, even though "pull-push" was preferred. I had been indoctrinated into thinking that using "rotational" steering was close to being in league with the devil.
For cb (OP)
I am an adi, have been for some 19 years.
The standard of tuition new drivers receive differs wildly.
For your question on the handbrake, I teach for basic car control particularly when starting that best practice is to stop at lights, apply "parking brake", gears to neutral. Foot off pedals. Absolutely nothing can go wrong when car like that.
These days with start/stop the car is saving fuel, helping the environment etc.... By leaving car in gear (is it the correct one?) causes unnecessary wear, some traffic lights could hold you for around 2 minutes, believe me learners do at times "forget" they are in gear, lift foot, and of course stall.
This will immediately cause panic where all sorts of things happen, normally not the correct response. I have had wipers onto full speed (front and rear), lights on/off, fan reached for, windows down/up, a foot slammed down onto gas pedal as key turned (start button pressed) car jumping up and down like it's on acid...l you picture it, it happens.
Stalling a car on it's own is not more than a minor fault, however losing control of your mind, and panicking could be a serious fault. Teaching/training new drivers to calmly sit at lights, then clutch in, select (hopefully first) gear, gas and clutch to bite, release parking brake and squeeze gas and ease clutch and you go kangarooing down the road to the relief of everyone behind. Many cars have different aids to apply a "handbrake" now, and any instructor will teach what his/her car has.
Ideally instructors cars would have a traditional handbrake as lets face it most new drivers will be buying a shed with one
If a stall is achieved not restarting car and moving away safely could result in a serious fault. Many cars now restart themselves when stick to neutral with foot on clutch, but if the car starts rolling then "control" is lost. So applying the handbrake first is a must.
I have always taught the push/pull, pull/push method of steering as it is the easiest way of steering, it encourages systematic car control, as by positioning the vehicle, slowing it, correct gear for the speed, then manoeuvre means you are more likely able to achieve what you want. If crossing arms is preferred it can lead to too much speed being taken into bends/turns and hands trying to follow the vehicle rather than controlling it, and letting the wheel slip through the hands to self correct. If car control is lost whilst hands across the wheel, and the driver hits something hard enough an airbag is activated then receiving your own fist/arm hitting you in the face at 200 MPH is going to make the driver wish he hadn't.
For OP I would ask instructor if you could sit in on a lesson for a couple of hours with a note book, listen to what he/she is advising your son to do, and unless you really are god's gift to driving don't try to change what the learner is being taught. The way we were taught to drive 30 plus years ago is far far different to what is expected to pass a modern day driving test, which is incidentally far far harder than the one we took, the roads are very different, far more crowded, and vehicles far more powerful, wider, longer etc...
Contrary to what most full licence holders feel, most would not pass a modern driving test if they took one. They just don't have to skills and awareness. That's why people crash. Any crash would be a fail right? Points on your licence prove your standard of driving is not up to the grade. Fact. Running a red light would also be a fail, and how many people do we see doing that during the week?
Good luck to the OP and his son
I am an adi, have been for some 19 years.
The standard of tuition new drivers receive differs wildly.
For your question on the handbrake, I teach for basic car control particularly when starting that best practice is to stop at lights, apply "parking brake", gears to neutral. Foot off pedals. Absolutely nothing can go wrong when car like that.
These days with start/stop the car is saving fuel, helping the environment etc.... By leaving car in gear (is it the correct one?) causes unnecessary wear, some traffic lights could hold you for around 2 minutes, believe me learners do at times "forget" they are in gear, lift foot, and of course stall.
This will immediately cause panic where all sorts of things happen, normally not the correct response. I have had wipers onto full speed (front and rear), lights on/off, fan reached for, windows down/up, a foot slammed down onto gas pedal as key turned (start button pressed) car jumping up and down like it's on acid...l you picture it, it happens.
Stalling a car on it's own is not more than a minor fault, however losing control of your mind, and panicking could be a serious fault. Teaching/training new drivers to calmly sit at lights, then clutch in, select (hopefully first) gear, gas and clutch to bite, release parking brake and squeeze gas and ease clutch and you go kangarooing down the road to the relief of everyone behind. Many cars have different aids to apply a "handbrake" now, and any instructor will teach what his/her car has.
Ideally instructors cars would have a traditional handbrake as lets face it most new drivers will be buying a shed with one
If a stall is achieved not restarting car and moving away safely could result in a serious fault. Many cars now restart themselves when stick to neutral with foot on clutch, but if the car starts rolling then "control" is lost. So applying the handbrake first is a must.
I have always taught the push/pull, pull/push method of steering as it is the easiest way of steering, it encourages systematic car control, as by positioning the vehicle, slowing it, correct gear for the speed, then manoeuvre means you are more likely able to achieve what you want. If crossing arms is preferred it can lead to too much speed being taken into bends/turns and hands trying to follow the vehicle rather than controlling it, and letting the wheel slip through the hands to self correct. If car control is lost whilst hands across the wheel, and the driver hits something hard enough an airbag is activated then receiving your own fist/arm hitting you in the face at 200 MPH is going to make the driver wish he hadn't.
For OP I would ask instructor if you could sit in on a lesson for a couple of hours with a note book, listen to what he/she is advising your son to do, and unless you really are god's gift to driving don't try to change what the learner is being taught. The way we were taught to drive 30 plus years ago is far far different to what is expected to pass a modern day driving test, which is incidentally far far harder than the one we took, the roads are very different, far more crowded, and vehicles far more powerful, wider, longer etc...
Contrary to what most full licence holders feel, most would not pass a modern driving test if they took one. They just don't have to skills and awareness. That's why people crash. Any crash would be a fail right? Points on your licence prove your standard of driving is not up to the grade. Fact. Running a red light would also be a fail, and how many people do we see doing that during the week?
Good luck to the OP and his son
fidzer said:
What I wasn't aware of until recently is that auto hold on some vehicles activates the brake lights. So even with your foot off the brake, the brake lights are still on, which as you say is not very considerate to those behind you.
Exactly this, although I would say it applies to the vast majority of vehicles. One only needs to look at the amount of cars stopped (sometimes for minutes) at lights with all brake lights blazing to come to the conclusion that surely not every driver is sitting with their foot on the brake pedal.
I have had auto hold on multiple cars but have never used it because I am a considerate driver.
I would be interested in learning if anybody knows with 100% certainty of any cars do not keep the brake lights illuminated for the duration when auto hold is active.
I routinely use brake hold. I think my Jaguar keeps the brake lights on in daylight, but turns the brake lights off after a few seconds in the dark.
While I believe those who say they find the glare from brake lights in front of them uncomfortable, personally I don't find them uncomfortable, and I find that there are so many other more intensive lights to cope with (police flashing lights at night, anyone?) that I'm surprised anyone who has trouble with brake lights can drive at night.
While I believe those who say they find the glare from brake lights in front of them uncomfortable, personally I don't find them uncomfortable, and I find that there are so many other more intensive lights to cope with (police flashing lights at night, anyone?) that I'm surprised anyone who has trouble with brake lights can drive at night.
waremark said:
I routinely use brake hold. I think my Jaguar keeps the brake lights on in daylight, but turns the brake lights off after a few seconds in the dark.
I'm surprised anyone who has trouble with brake lights can drive at night.
You only think but you don't know, so your brake lights could possibly stay on for the full duration of your stop at all times.I'm surprised anyone who has trouble with brake lights can drive at night.
Sitting immediately behind a car at night in the rain with 3 brake lights blazing is most definitely irritating
The problem I have is not driving at night, but with inconsiderate other drivers. It is not surprising because when most drivers are cosy within their tin bubble they couldn't give a damn about anybody else.
Edited by Ron240 on Saturday 6th May 16:28
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff