Using the whole road space on a dual carriageway

[Super Sonic]

mwstewart said:

Can carry a lot more speed through the bend. It also requires more skill carving your own, well-judged line than following a pre-marked white line.

It's not about achieving maximum speed, that's what racetracks are for. Using both sides of the road because you're going to fast to stay on the left is neither well judged or skilfull.

[FiF]

Super Sonic said:

mwstewart said:

Can carry a lot more speed through the bend. It also requires more skill carving your own, well-judged line than following a pre-marked white line.

It's not about achieving maximum speed, that's what racetracks are for. Using both sides of the road because you're going to fast to stay on the left is neither well judged or skilfull.

That's not what actually is being proposed by many on the thread.

[PhilAsia]

Super Sonic said:

It's not about achieving maximum speed, that's what racetracks are for. Using both sides of the road because you're going to fast to stay on the left is neither well judged or skilfull.

Using offside is "well-judged and skilful" if used for optimum vision and vehicle balance. I suspect that you are assuming that the use of offside is for excessive speed which, on an AD forum, would be approaching the topic with the wrong assumption/mindset. Safety is #1.

[Super Sonic]

FiF said:

Super Sonic said:

mwstewart said:

Can carry a lot more speed through the bend. It also requires more skill carving your own, well-judged line than following a pre-marked white line.

It's not about achieving maximum speed, that's what racetracks are for. Using both sides of the road because you're going to fast to stay on the left is neither well judged or skilfull.

That's not what actually is being proposed by many on the thread.

It is what MWStewart was talking about, ie ''can carry a lot more speed through the bend'', and it was this specially that I was replying to.

[Super Sonic]

PhilAsia said:

Using offside is "well-judged and skilful" if used for optimum vision and vehicle balance. I suspect that you are assuming that the use of offside is for excessive speed which, on an AD forum, would be approaching the topic with the wrong assumption/mindset. Safety is #1.

see my previous reply.

[FiF]

Super Sonic said:

FiF said:

Super Sonic said:

mwstewart said:

Can carry a lot more speed through the bend. It also requires more skill carving your own, well-judged line than following a pre-marked white line.

It's not about achieving maximum speed, that's what racetracks are for. Using both sides of the road because you're going to fast to stay on the left is neither well judged or skilfull.

That's not what actually is being proposed by many on the thread.

It is what MWStewart was talking about, ie ''can carry a lot more speed through the bend'', and it was this specially that I was replying to.

Sorry but the point is that with better vision AND a straighter line THEN there is the option to make a different assessment of appropriate speed to be used.

This is not the same as Using both sides of the road because you're going to (sic) fast to stay on the left which was an accusation based solely on your own invention.

Pfft.

[Bryanwww]

Think of the road markings as track boundaries if you really want to be a pretend race car driver.
Ten second stop and go penalty for crossing into the oncoming lane, drive through penalty if you can't navigate a multi lane roundabout without leaving your lane etc.

[Super Sonic]

FiF said:

Sorry but the point is that with better vision AND a straighter line THEN there is the option to make a different assessment of appropriate speed to be used.

This is not the same as Using both sides of the road because you're going to (sic) fast to stay on the left which was an accusation based solely on your own invention.

Pfft.

MWStewart said using both sides of the roads means he can go faster. This means straight lining the bends. This does not give better visibility.

[Solocle]

Super Sonic said:

MWStewart said using both sides of the roads means he can go faster. This means straight lining the bends. This does not give better visibility.

The local DC bend that comes to mind is this. It's a 30 mph speed limit. Visibility through the bend is excellent. If you follow the red path, then 30 mph actually takes you close to the limit of traction - in good conditions.

Instead, the blue path is much gentler in terms of lateral force, and for a given speed provides more of a safety margin. Provided the road is clear, of course.

[ScoobyChris]

Super Sonic said:

MWStewart said using both sides of the roads means he can go faster. This means straight lining the bends. This does not give better visibility.

In the simplest sense, the limit point (furthest you can see) can be used to decide your speed, such that you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear. If that limit point is further away (because you have better visibility by taking a different position entering the bend) you can potentially carry more speed. Vehicles are more stable in a straight line than under cornering so the safety margins of traction, even if you keep your speed the same) potentially higher too.

Chris

[Bryanwww]

Solocle said:

Super Sonic said:

MWStewart said using both sides of the roads means he can go faster. This means straight lining the bends. This does not give better visibility.

The local DC bend that comes to mind is this. It's a 30 mph speed limit. Visibility through the bend is excellent. If you follow the red path, then 30 mph actually takes you close to the limit of traction - in good conditions.

Instead, the blue path is much gentler in terms of lateral force, and for a given speed provides more of a safety margin. Provided the road is clear, of course.

30mph is the maximum speed, if you don't think it's safe to do 30 around a corner you are allowed to slow down instead of apexing it.
What kind of linglong tyred stbox are you driving that it won't be able to safely make it around that bend at 30??

[Solocle]

Bryanwww said:

30mph is the maximum speed, if you don't think it's safe to do 30 around a corner you are allowed to slow down instead of apexing it.
What kind of linglong tyred stbox are you driving that it won't be able to safely make it around that bend at 30??

Yes, I know that. This is the advanced driving forum. The point is that if it's safe and legal, you can take a wider line through the bend to maximise progress, by removing any need to slow down.

Pirelli Cinturato P1, by the way, not ditchfinders. It's a very tight bend if you try and stay in lane. In good conditions 30 is manageable. Any faster and your tyres will start singing. But in the wet 30 would be very risky. But nobody around? Just dab the brakes to maybe 25, take the wide line, and it's absolutely no hassle whatsoever.

[911hope]

Solocle said:

Yes, I know that. This is the advanced driving forum. The point is that if it's safe and legal, you can take a wider line through the bend to maximise progress, by removing any need to slow down.

Pirelli Cinturato P1, by the way, not ditchfinders. It's a very tight bend if you try and stay in lane. In good conditions 30 is manageable. Any faster and your tyres will start singing. But in the wet 30 would be very risky. But nobody around? Just dab the brakes to maybe 25, take the wide line, and it's absolutely no hassle whatsoever.

If you are needing to take the racing line to stay away from the limit, then you are not safe.

Now this forum is called advanced driving,but there is very little content that qualifies.

[vonhosen]

In advanced driving (road driving) the acronym to be remembered when it comes to positioning is SIR.
Safety, Information, Reduce forces.
It's a hierarchal relationship between them.
You can only reduce the forces acting on the vehicle through positioning, where you can see (information), it is safe (+legal) to do so.
Take a motorcycle, the less lean angle you have to deploy (due to the line you are taking) for a given speed, the greater the safety margin.

You'll notice all of that is to do with increased safety.
No mention of doing it to be faster, or of racing lines.

It is not illegal to do it, in the absence of markings/legislation to the contrary.

But, if you are going to do it you are responsible where you are doing it inappropriately.

Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing resulting in some who do it doing it inappropriately.
Apparently some advanced driving organisations actually discourage it due to that, because not everybody can be given sufficient instructional oversight & guidance to reach an appropriate level of understanding/skill.

Not talking about dual carriageways in particular here, just general positioning principles for roads

[Bryanwww]

vonhosen said:

In advanced driving (road driving) the acronym to be remembered when it comes to positioning is SIR.
Safety, Information, Reduce forces.
It's a hierarchal relationship between them.
You can only reduce the forces acting on the vehicle through positioning, where you can see (information), it is safe (+legal) to do so.
Take a motorcycle, the less lean angle you have to deploy (due to the line you are taking) for a given speed, the greater the safety margin.

You'll notice all of that is to do with increased safety.
No mention of doing it to be faster, or of racing lines.

It is not illegal to do it, in the absence of markings/legislation to the contrary.

But, if you are going to do it you are responsible where you are doing it inappropriately.

Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing resulting in some who do it doing it inappropriately.
Apparently some advanced driving organisations actually discourage it due to that, because not everybody can be given sufficient instructional oversight & guidance to reach an appropriate level of understanding/skill.

Not talking about dual carriageways in particular here, just general positioning principles for roads

Risk assess it by the severity of the consequence Vs the probability of that risk manifesting Vs the benefit.

In the picture posted above there is a lot going on ahead of you to pay attention to on that corner - add speed and needing to be extra aware of what's alongside you and coming up behind you and you are adding a lot more that can go wrong with the benefit of maintaining a few mph through a corner and getting to where you are going maybe a second quicker.

You are also closing off your visibility ahead while you are apexing - on road that's normally the limiting factor to how much speed you can carry through corners, not the dynamics of most modern cars on decent tyres.

[vonhosen]

Bryanwww said:

vonhosen said:

In advanced driving (road driving) the acronym to be remembered when it comes to positioning is SIR.
Safety, Information, Reduce forces.
It's a hierarchal relationship between them.
You can only reduce the forces acting on the vehicle through positioning, where you can see (information), it is safe (+legal) to do so.
Take a motorcycle, the less lean angle you have to deploy (due to the line you are taking) for a given speed, the greater the safety margin.

You'll notice all of that is to do with increased safety.
No mention of doing it to be faster, or of racing lines.

It is not illegal to do it, in the absence of markings/legislation to the contrary.

But, if you are going to do it you are responsible where you are doing it inappropriately.

Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing resulting in some who do it doing it inappropriately.
Apparently some advanced driving organisations actually discourage it due to that, because not everybody can be given sufficient instructional oversight & guidance to reach an appropriate level of understanding/skill.

Not talking about dual carriageways in particular here, just general positioning principles for roads

Risk assess it by the severity of the consequence Vs the probability of that risk manifesting Vs the benefit.

In the picture posted above there is a lot going on ahead of you to pay attention to on that corner - add speed and needing to be extra aware of what's alongside you and coming up behind you and you are adding a lot more that can go wrong with the benefit of maintaining a few mph through a corner and getting to where you are going maybe a second quicker.

As I said I'm talking about the general principles behind it, not referring to individual cases or pictures.

But if you are talking about the picture immediately above with the blue & red lines. The blue line has closed of visibility no more than staying on the red line has. Speed at the apex should be no different. Just less forces acting on the blue line. (As an aside if I were looking to apex I'd do a later apex than that shown, one when I had full view on the exit side).

Bryanwww said:

You are also closing off your visibility ahead while you are apexing - on road that's normally the limiting factor to how much speed you can carry through corners, not the dynamics of most modern cars on decent tyres.

You don't apex where you close off visibility (information comes before reduce forces in the hierarchy). You can where you have the visibility do so & it's safe (ie open visibility through a series of bends).

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 1st September 10:05

[Bryanwww]

said:

Sorry was in response to the picture provided above more than your comment.
Agree with what you said mostly and the problem with this sort of technique is forum warriors will use it to justify terrible driving because they are advanced drivers and know best.

Driving to visibility/stopping distance, don't assume observations are flawless and give room for other people's mistakes is generally going to be better advice than getting people to maximise the speed taken through every corner.

Slightly off topic but Re observations it's worth looking into optical illusions and getting an idea of how your brain perceives things - there's a lot of room for error to creep in at different points all the way down to the fact that what you see when you do make observations isn't accurate.

[vonhosen]

Bryanwww said:

said:

Sorry was in response to the picture provided above more than your comment.
Agree with what you said mostly and the problem with this sort of technique is forum warriors will use it to justify terrible driving because they are advanced drivers and know best.

Which is why I was talking about some advanced driving organisations discouraging it. Because they generally can't spend enough time on teaching it to ensure a high enough level of understanding/skill in it & recognise the risks that presents.

Bryanwww said:

Driving to visibility/stopping distance, don't assume observations are flawless and give room for other people's mistakes is generally going to be better advice than getting people to maximise the speed taken through every corner.

Slightly off topic but Re observations it's worth looking into optical illusions and getting an idea of how your brain perceives things - there's a lot of room for error to creep in at different points all the way down to the fact that what you see when you do make observations isn't accurate.

Whole other topic about how the eyes work, limitations within the eye design themselves & with how the brain interprets & reports the information it's receiving. But that's true of whatever line you are taking or any other aspect of driving.

[Solocle]

vonhosen said:

Bryanwww said:

vonhosen said:

In advanced driving (road driving) the acronym to be remembered when it comes to positioning is SIR.
Safety, Information, Reduce forces.
It's a hierarchal relationship between them.
You can only reduce the forces acting on the vehicle through positioning, where you can see (information), it is safe (+legal) to do so.
Take a motorcycle, the less lean angle you have to deploy (due to the line you are taking) for a given speed, the greater the safety margin.

You'll notice all of that is to do with increased safety.
No mention of doing it to be faster, or of racing lines.

It is not illegal to do it, in the absence of markings/legislation to the contrary.

But, if you are going to do it you are responsible where you are doing it inappropriately.

Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing resulting in some who do it doing it inappropriately.
Apparently some advanced driving organisations actually discourage it due to that, because not everybody can be given sufficient instructional oversight & guidance to reach an appropriate level of understanding/skill.

Not talking about dual carriageways in particular here, just general positioning principles for roads

Risk assess it by the severity of the consequence Vs the probability of that risk manifesting Vs the benefit.

In the picture posted above there is a lot going on ahead of you to pay attention to on that corner - add speed and needing to be extra aware of what's alongside you and coming up behind you and you are adding a lot more that can go wrong with the benefit of maintaining a few mph through a corner and getting to where you are going maybe a second quicker.

As I said I'm talking about the general principles behind it, not referring to individual cases or pictures.

But if you are talking about the picture immediately above with the blue & red lines. The blue line has closed of visibility no more than staying on the red line has. Speed at the apex should be no different. Just less forces acting on the blue line. (As an aside if I were looking to apex I'd do a later apex than that shown, one when I had full view on the exit side).

Bryanwww said:

You are also closing off your visibility ahead while you are apexing - on road that's normally the limiting factor to how much speed you can carry through corners, not the dynamics of most modern cars on decent tyres.

You don't apex where you close off visibility (information comes before reduce forces in the hierarchy). You can where you have the visibility do so & it's safe (ie open visibility through a series of bends).

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 1st September 10:05

Yep - exactly the point I'm trying to make. It's also an unusual one as it's possible to look up the road substantially beyond the limit point, bringing dynamics into play if you utilise that information.

It's less about apexing, more about positioning before the corner. For instance, the last time I recall doing any offsiding was here, and I was on my bicycle at the time - so I was also especially monitoring for anything coming up behind me. But with a bend like this, offsiding and then approaching the apex is substantially less force and lean angle. Undoubtedly I could have done the same speed without offsiding - but I'd have been in a deeper lean and therefore less able to respond to a hazard like a pothole or rock on the road.

Slow down if in any doubt. But with a stunning view up the road both ahead and behind, it's possible to eliminate doubt.

Edited by Solocle on Friday 1st September 10:34