BAD DRIVER or just me?
Discussion
Thanks guys 
Tim - specifically what bits did you think were bad (seroius question here)?
Equally, why is planting the throttle mid-corner bad (when you can see through the entire corner and you are past it's apex)?
You can see from everything I've written in this thread that I like to learn about driving from my peers - please feel free to explain what bits you thought were 'bad' and why, and what it meant to the car (i.e. it would unsettle the car, for example).
You not having a license simply means you've not driven on the road. If you still understand driving, it's theories, and how best applied on the road itself, then I will respect your opinion and consider it as such.
If, however, your 'bad driver' tag was made with no basis, then no matter in what walk of life or what subject we are discussing, it (unfortunately) gives no credit to what you say.
Please do take the time to reply and comment,
Tony
Tim - specifically what bits did you think were bad (seroius question here)?
Equally, why is planting the throttle mid-corner bad (when you can see through the entire corner and you are past it's apex)?
You can see from everything I've written in this thread that I like to learn about driving from my peers - please feel free to explain what bits you thought were 'bad' and why, and what it meant to the car (i.e. it would unsettle the car, for example).
You not having a license simply means you've not driven on the road. If you still understand driving, it's theories, and how best applied on the road itself, then I will respect your opinion and consider it as such.
If, however, your 'bad driver' tag was made with no basis, then no matter in what walk of life or what subject we are discussing, it (unfortunately) gives no credit to what you say.
Please do take the time to reply and comment,
Tony
Pretty difficult to find fault with that IMHO. Some clear evidence of slowing for hazards/parked cars etc.
I don't have a massive problem with changing down on the exit myself, but my gut feeling was that it was all coming at you a bit too fast for comfort.
With hindsight I would perhaps consider looking at heavier braking and a downchange before the corner, staying out wider and turning in later, with an early application of throttle. Slow in, fast out. Not so appropriate with an Elise, I grant you.
Sometimes you just have to play it as it comes at you. I would have been happy as a passenger.
I don't have a massive problem with changing down on the exit myself, but my gut feeling was that it was all coming at you a bit too fast for comfort.
With hindsight I would perhaps consider looking at heavier braking and a downchange before the corner, staying out wider and turning in later, with an early application of throttle. Slow in, fast out. Not so appropriate with an Elise, I grant you.
Sometimes you just have to play it as it comes at you. I would have been happy as a passenger.
tonyhetherington said:
then I will respect your opinion and consider it as such.
You're too nice Tony... he can't even legally drive a Trabant let alone a Lotus and he's jumped straight into a crowd of people that actually know how each other drive and have a lot of respect for each other.
Hmm, respect. Something he may want to consider before airing ill formed opinions of other people.
nubbin said:
Nubbin, I've still got your appalling collection of CDs and a suction mount thingy.
Good man Ted! I thought I'd left them in my car. I know you'll want to listen to some decent choons, so shall we arrange handover at BTaP?
I was planning on auctioning them
yes, I'll bring 'em along
PetrolTed said:
PetrolTed said:
Nubbin, I've still got your appalling collection of CDs and a suction mount thingy.
Good man Ted! I thought I'd left them in my car. I know you'll want to listen to some decent choons, so shall we arrange handover at BTaP?
I was planning on auctioning them
Hey, you managed to get £500 for a picture of my car last year, imagine how much you'd get for one of Dr Nubbin's "suction thingies" ... the laydeez would go mad for it
Contraversy.... Contraversy .... Contraversy ...
I would like to offer the opinion of Golden Lady 1, from both passenger seat and from the drivers seat.
Unique, yes, but I had the pleasure of doing both on that road in a certain fire breathing Cerberra.
My arse was the one that hung out on the wrong side of that road as we traversed our way to Roccostrada, and at no point, none, did I feel that Tony, Nubbin or indeed the other Golden Lady 1 made me wish I'd worn my brown pants, or had better italian to deal with the ambulance and tractor driver after the inevitable.
The road was driven twice only, once on the way, once on the way back. The bends were appalling indicated, appearing the Luca and his mate Valentino had run out of chevrons and therefore decided to not always mark the corners that should have been. This meant that all 3 cars were forced into slowing mid corner.
For the torque laden TVR's this was not a concern, we could just ride the torque curve and pull the car out from mid corner to exit. For Tony, this is not as easy. His car does not have the torque or the ratio's to do this. It requires a differing driving style.
In addition, the Elise has as Tony has eluded to and anyone with a drip of petrol in their veins will understand a HUGE amount of grip. Tony's control of that by his admission, may not be the smoothest, but I can bare witness to where some roads we drove would not allow for the level of commitment he did not and would not push this envelope.
In car cameras do not tell anywhere near the whole story, have crap sound quality and do not represent the drivers eye view.
When following behind Nubbin, who was behind Tony, he looked comfortable at those speeds, fluid and when any hazard arrived in his tracks he had more than enough time and space to slow appropriately, give the driver ahead the space you should and then overtook where he could see.
On the way down, I could not pedal the Cerberra fast enough to keep up. That is to do with my ability and the fact I didn't own the car, but I did not feel that Tony or Nubbin were driving beyond their linits, just mine.
As a passenger on these trips you have the advantage of being able to watch other peoples driving without having to concentrate on your own. I have led Tony up and down passes, I have followed up and down passes, on motorways, A roads and every type of road you can imagine.
At no point did his driving raise any anxiety for me. None. It was in fact very refrshing to sit and have a beer at the end of the day with someone who wanted to discuss driving, the technique, the style and which areas he could work on. Not just the normal, what a great road and the car was great. Someone who thinks about their driving, what worked, what needs working on and what were other peoples opinions.
I hope your work on smoothness continues to advance Tony, although I do not think you could have done much more to settle that on that road given 2 go's at it. Peter's comments on gear changes are perhaps apppropriate, but in the heat of the Italian hills given one of the best roads ever to drive, these things are only 45 mins of a 3500 mile trip ...
I look forward to bringing the Griffith perhaps next year, and following you through the passes Nick will inevitably come up with. I know I shall be safe to follow and lead you and look forward to the experience.
Driving styles will always differ, and it is great to discuss them. But we must all remember that Tony did all of this whilst shouting abuse about Golden Lady's, Bah abhabha bub babh wabhah FACT, Bolzano and a variety of whinging about a fish in his engine on the 2 way radio at the same time. Often whilst fettling his immaculate hair with more mousse than most men could ever dream of handling.
These were the particular skills that made me take notice and check for fish availability for TVR engine, grow my hair longer and have a Golden lady tatto on my butt.
Fair play Tony !
I would like to offer the opinion of Golden Lady 1, from both passenger seat and from the drivers seat.
Unique, yes, but I had the pleasure of doing both on that road in a certain fire breathing Cerberra.
My arse was the one that hung out on the wrong side of that road as we traversed our way to Roccostrada, and at no point, none, did I feel that Tony, Nubbin or indeed the other Golden Lady 1 made me wish I'd worn my brown pants, or had better italian to deal with the ambulance and tractor driver after the inevitable.
The road was driven twice only, once on the way, once on the way back. The bends were appalling indicated, appearing the Luca and his mate Valentino had run out of chevrons and therefore decided to not always mark the corners that should have been. This meant that all 3 cars were forced into slowing mid corner.
For the torque laden TVR's this was not a concern, we could just ride the torque curve and pull the car out from mid corner to exit. For Tony, this is not as easy. His car does not have the torque or the ratio's to do this. It requires a differing driving style.
In addition, the Elise has as Tony has eluded to and anyone with a drip of petrol in their veins will understand a HUGE amount of grip. Tony's control of that by his admission, may not be the smoothest, but I can bare witness to where some roads we drove would not allow for the level of commitment he did not and would not push this envelope.
In car cameras do not tell anywhere near the whole story, have crap sound quality and do not represent the drivers eye view.
When following behind Nubbin, who was behind Tony, he looked comfortable at those speeds, fluid and when any hazard arrived in his tracks he had more than enough time and space to slow appropriately, give the driver ahead the space you should and then overtook where he could see.
On the way down, I could not pedal the Cerberra fast enough to keep up. That is to do with my ability and the fact I didn't own the car, but I did not feel that Tony or Nubbin were driving beyond their linits, just mine.
As a passenger on these trips you have the advantage of being able to watch other peoples driving without having to concentrate on your own. I have led Tony up and down passes, I have followed up and down passes, on motorways, A roads and every type of road you can imagine.
At no point did his driving raise any anxiety for me. None. It was in fact very refrshing to sit and have a beer at the end of the day with someone who wanted to discuss driving, the technique, the style and which areas he could work on. Not just the normal, what a great road and the car was great. Someone who thinks about their driving, what worked, what needs working on and what were other peoples opinions.
I hope your work on smoothness continues to advance Tony, although I do not think you could have done much more to settle that on that road given 2 go's at it. Peter's comments on gear changes are perhaps apppropriate, but in the heat of the Italian hills given one of the best roads ever to drive, these things are only 45 mins of a 3500 mile trip ...
I look forward to bringing the Griffith perhaps next year, and following you through the passes Nick will inevitably come up with. I know I shall be safe to follow and lead you and look forward to the experience.
Driving styles will always differ, and it is great to discuss them. But we must all remember that Tony did all of this whilst shouting abuse about Golden Lady's, Bah abhabha bub babh wabhah FACT, Bolzano and a variety of whinging about a fish in his engine on the 2 way radio at the same time. Often whilst fettling his immaculate hair with more mousse than most men could ever dream of handling.
These were the particular skills that made me take notice and check for fish availability for TVR engine, grow my hair longer and have a Golden lady tatto on my butt.
Fair play Tony !
tonyhetherington said:
Regarding the point about using the other side of the road. ... It was never, ever, because I was too fast into the corner.
No-one seems to have picked up yet that he was driving a RHD car on the right hand side of the road - meaning right hand bends posed a particular vision problem. I drive a LHD car in the UK and frequently move across the white line to get a clearer view around left hand bends (unless someone's coming the other way of course!). All part of the observation, planning and preparation required to make safe progress, surely?
I've had the chance to look through the video, and firstly I'd like to say what an entertaining drive on a great stretch of road.
My driving requires lots of improvement and I appreciate comments, but wouldn't have the nerve to post up my video and ask for them. Tony has so here are a few thoughts:-
- Overall looked like good progress with safe approach to hazards. Would I give you my car keys? Well, maybe if you asked nicely...
- Slower entry to curves with earlier application of power for corners would see more stable progress - probably reduce the amount of steering required to flow through the corner (eg RH corner exiting at 53s)
- More gentle application to full throttle (should take 1/2-3/4s - not straight to WoT) - for example where that long straight opens up - if you were on the power into the corner you could open up as the view opened.
Also the opening up at 2.07. In the dry you are not seeing much oversteer on exit - might be harder to drive this was
- Good anticipation of speed for corners - and great speed control where that parked car sat at the end of the straight. Love the way the car appears on the otherside of the road, just to remind you that you had no bale-out route.
- Are you positioning to reduce required grip in the corners, or to increase visibility. Really hard to tell from up in the camera, not behind the wheel, but looks like to increase grip (ie early apexing) - you could have come out for a view on some corners (eg RH at 11s, RH at 29s) and not sure if you restricted your view on LH at 40s).
- Gear work appears to be lead by engine tone rater than necesarily observation - eg - a few changes up in switchbacks (eg left right ending at 1.08) which left you in a higher gear that you really wanted -- necessitated a flick down on exit. Probably quicker to have held at high revs through the complex and changed up as the straight emerged -- instead you are slow to get on the power for the long fast bit.
My gear work is rubbish.
- 1.25. Lovely acceleration away from the parked car hazard. Could you have stayed out for the RH corner?
- Is that a tyre squeal at 2.20?
Um - that's all I have time to review in the office!
Hope these comments are taking in the vein in which they are given and that you get the chance to comment on my driving too, soon.
My driving requires lots of improvement and I appreciate comments, but wouldn't have the nerve to post up my video and ask for them.
Tony has so here are a few thoughts:- - Overall looked like good progress with safe approach to hazards. Would I give you my car keys? Well, maybe if you asked nicely...
- Slower entry to curves with earlier application of power for corners would see more stable progress - probably reduce the amount of steering required to flow through the corner (eg RH corner exiting at 53s)
- More gentle application to full throttle (should take 1/2-3/4s - not straight to WoT) - for example where that long straight opens up - if you were on the power into the corner you could open up as the view opened.
Also the opening up at 2.07. In the dry you are not seeing much oversteer on exit - might be harder to drive this was
- Good anticipation of speed for corners - and great speed control where that parked car sat at the end of the straight. Love the way the car appears on the otherside of the road, just to remind you that you had no bale-out route.
- Are you positioning to reduce required grip in the corners, or to increase visibility. Really hard to tell from up in the camera, not behind the wheel, but looks like to increase grip (ie early apexing) - you could have come out for a view on some corners (eg RH at 11s, RH at 29s) and not sure if you restricted your view on LH at 40s).
- Gear work appears to be lead by engine tone rater than necesarily observation - eg - a few changes up in switchbacks (eg left right ending at 1.08) which left you in a higher gear that you really wanted -- necessitated a flick down on exit. Probably quicker to have held at high revs through the complex and changed up as the straight emerged -- instead you are slow to get on the power for the long fast bit.
My gear work is rubbish.
- 1.25. Lovely acceleration away from the parked car hazard. Could you have stayed out for the RH corner?
- Is that a tyre squeal at 2.20?
Um - that's all I have time to review in the office!
Hope these comments are taking in the vein in which they are given and that you get the chance to comment on my driving too, soon.
7db - let me say a big thank you. I really am grateful for your comments and for the obvious time you spent to make such a constructive post.
I'm in the office at the moment and so can't analyse the video along with the timings - but I will certainly do so as soon as I can at home (with anticipation actually!).
Once I've compared your notes with the video I will post my replies to your specific notes.
I do stress though, your comments are really appreciated and received within the spirit with which I'm sure they were made.
Thanks
Tony
I'm in the office at the moment and so can't analyse the video along with the timings - but I will certainly do so as soon as I can at home (with anticipation actually!).
Once I've compared your notes with the video I will post my replies to your specific notes.
I do stress though, your comments are really appreciated and received within the spirit with which I'm sure they were made.
Thanks
Tony
Tony,
I look forward to your comments -- and if you think it's worthwhile, I might have a longer look when I'm at home too, and perhaps put things in a little more structured way.
By the way, I stand by my original decision that the answer to the original poster (BAD DRIVER or just me) is that you're a good driver, and yes:- it's just him.
db
I look forward to your comments -- and if you think it's worthwhile, I might have a longer look when I'm at home too, and perhaps put things in a little more structured way.
By the way, I stand by my original decision that the answer to the original poster (BAD DRIVER or just me) is that you're a good driver, and yes:- it's just him.
db
A quick response from a former IAM observer!
Taking into account it is in a RHD car on the continent, and that it was a totally strange road, I would say it was a good effort. Also that low sun seemed rather distracting! The road also looked a little damp in places?
He used the full width of the road well to help sight lines. Approached corners with good caution, didn't attack bends and waited for things to become clear before driving through each stretch. Made good progress when vision and conditions allowed. From a driving the road perspective I would say a good effort.
The driving of the car would need a bit of work from a public road driving perspective. Smoothness was missing, you can not tell how smooth the braking and gear/clutch use is, but the throttle pedal does seem to be used rather like a switch. Some of the line corrections looked a little ragged too, the corners could have been taken better.
It looked a little like a first lap of a track day at times, keen to make progress but with a cautious approach where vision was restricted. This led to some on/off throttle jerks and line adjustment. I bet if he was to drive that stretch a few times he would not only get a lot quicker but some smoothness would come too.
All IMOA and I only viewed the film once!
Paul.B
Edited to add: I posted before reading trought he thread. Some interesting points were made. I really enjoyed reading (most) of what has been said and well done Tony for being so bloody brave!
>> Edited by Paul.B on Friday 30th September 20:03
Taking into account it is in a RHD car on the continent, and that it was a totally strange road, I would say it was a good effort. Also that low sun seemed rather distracting! The road also looked a little damp in places?
He used the full width of the road well to help sight lines. Approached corners with good caution, didn't attack bends and waited for things to become clear before driving through each stretch. Made good progress when vision and conditions allowed. From a driving the road perspective I would say a good effort.
The driving of the car would need a bit of work from a public road driving perspective. Smoothness was missing, you can not tell how smooth the braking and gear/clutch use is, but the throttle pedal does seem to be used rather like a switch. Some of the line corrections looked a little ragged too, the corners could have been taken better.
It looked a little like a first lap of a track day at times, keen to make progress but with a cautious approach where vision was restricted. This led to some on/off throttle jerks and line adjustment. I bet if he was to drive that stretch a few times he would not only get a lot quicker but some smoothness would come too.
All IMOA and I only viewed the film once!
Paul.B
Edited to add: I posted before reading trought he thread. Some interesting points were made. I really enjoyed reading (most) of what has been said and well done Tony for being so bloody brave!
>> Edited by Paul.B on Friday 30th September 20:03
blue 4.5 said:
Point to note - if you need to use all the road because you do not have enough grip to stay on your own side then you are a nutter...save this for the track!
That was the point I was trying to make, the only benefit I can see about using the whole of the road is getting into a better position to take a corner at high speed, or on exiting a corner at high speed. Both in my opinion silly things to do on a public highway, unless you can clearly see the road ahead. If you're going that hard into a corner, and something is round it, you die, or they die or you both die.
I have no problems with the driving as I am guessing this was an unknown piece of road, and therefore you can't be expected to know the correct gear to be in, in every corner. All the others criticising, how many GP's did you win?
Just like to raise a point to people reading that we are not just boy racers
Another benefit for using the whole of the road is to allow you to see further. Where safe, legal and appropriate it helps smooth out a drive and makes it safer.
Paul.B
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