Zen and the art of changing gear.

[BertBert]

whiteside67 said:

Say I am going up a hill in 5th gear and need to change down to 4th for acceleration e.g. to overtake. My foot is already half way down on the accelator pedal. When i press clutch to change down does this not cause clutch wear beacause my foot is a good bit down on the accelerator (quite high revs going through clutch)

Yes, if you dip the clutch at half throttle, the revs will go up and almost certainly by too much for your rev match anyway. So I think you'd reduce the throttle before pressing the clutch (blending the two I guess) to avoid both problems.

As I am carp at rev matching, I use a blip anyway, so I do let the revs drop. I find it easier to blip the throttle and find a good clutch engagement point rather than try to find the right revs and hold them there.

Bert

[BertBert]

25NAD90TUL said:

Of course the main thing is to avoid brake gear overlap in these circumstances.

Absolutely! Are you sure you don't have a forum-death-wish?

[p1esk]

BertBert said:

whiteside67 said:

Say I am going up a hill in 5th gear and need to change down to 4th for acceleration e.g. to overtake. My foot is already half way down on the accelator pedal. When i press clutch to change down does this not cause clutch wear beacause my foot is a good bit down on the accelerator (quite high revs going through clutch)

Yes, if you dip the clutch at half throttle, the revs will go up and almost certainly by too much for your rev match anyway. So I think you'd reduce the throttle before pressing the clutch (blending the two I guess) to avoid both problems.

As I am carp at rev matching, I use a blip anyway, so I do let the revs drop. I find it easier to blip the throttle and find a good clutch engagement point rather than try to find the right revs and hold them there.

Bert

That's what I do too. I'm not sure how long I've been doing it that way, but I first realised that was what I was doing several years ago; and I still don't know how it happened. It's not the conventional way of doing rev matching, but I think our way is probably quicker, and it seems to give a nice result.

To be quite honest, I've often thought that the way advanced drivers perform gearchanges seems unduly slow and rather laboured (sorry guys); whereas I prefer the changes to be slick and swift, but without showing any sign of being rushed.

[whiteside67]

BertBert said:

Yes, if you dip the clutch at half throttle, the revs will go up and almost certainly by too much for your rev match anyway. So I think you'd reduce the throttle before pressing the clutch (blending the two I guess) to avoid both problems.

As I am carp at rev matching, I use a blip anyway, so I do let the revs drop. I find it easier to blip the throttle and find a good clutch engagement point rather than try to find the right revs and hold them there.

Bert

So the way you do it is:

1. Foot off accelerator
2. Depress clutch
3. As your moving gear stick you stab accelerator
4. Foot off accelerator
5. Release clutch

Is this right?

Edited by whiteside67 on Tuesday 14th January 22:41

[25NAD90TUL]

BertBert said:

Absolutely! Are you sure you don't have a forum-death-wish?

No, those days are gone...I've long risen from the dead in that respect!

I enjoy your posts, someone who still believes in the system, as myself.

We are a dying breed in AD communities.

[BertBert]

I do indeed like "the system". This stems from my days in the U17 Car Club and going from not having a clue about it to being (slightly) able to help the "kids" learn it as instructor. I remember one of the older ones who was in their final year at the club and had turned 17 and passed her test. I did a check drive and her driving was appalling. Almost everything you might expect from a 17yr old who had just passed their test.

We stopped, had a chat and she had another go. We got some commentary going and she drove superbly. Brilliant.

Now that's the cue for VH to come along and talk about GDE (which I may also be coming round to)!

Bert

[BertBert]

25NAD90TUL said:

PS Bert, you don't bloody join in when I'm being berated for advocating these things in the BGOL threads!

Humblest apologies, will try harder!

[SK425]

p1esk said:

It's not the conventional way of doing rev matching

Don't worry, I'm pretty sure both blip and sustain are fairly conventional.

Edited by SK425 on Wednesday 15th January 11:26

[25NAD90TUL]

BertBert said:

25NAD90TUL said:

PS Bert, you don't bloody join in when I'm being berated for advocating these things in the BGOL threads!

Humblest apologies, will try harder!

Actually I just read that thread about bgol again, and you did!

[standards]

p1esk said:

BertBert said:

whiteside67 said:

Say I am going up a hill in 5th gear and need to change down to 4th for acceleration e.g. to overtake. My foot is already half way down on the accelator pedal. When i press clutch to change down does this not cause clutch wear beacause my foot is a good bit down on the accelerator (quite high revs going through clutch)

Yes, if you dip the clutch at half throttle, the revs will go up and almost certainly by too much for your rev match anyway. So I think you'd reduce the throttle before pressing the clutch (blending the two I guess) to avoid both problems.

As I am carp at rev matching, I use a blip anyway, so I do let the revs drop. I find it easier to blip the throttle and find a good clutch engagement point rather than try to find the right revs and hold them there.

Bert

That's what I do too. I'm not sure how long I've been doing it that way, but I first realised that was what I was doing several years ago; and I still don't know how it happened. It's not the conventional way of doing rev matching, but I think our way is probably quicker, and it seems to give a nice result.

To be quite honest, I've often thought that the way advanced drivers perform gearchanges seems unduly slow and rather laboured (sorry guys); whereas I prefer the changes to be slick and swift, but without showing any sign of being rushed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv86v2vGELc

I know this isn't on a public road, but if it was it would be pretty rapid and I would say the gearchanges are deliberate and unhurried

[p1esk]

standards said:

p1esk said:

BertBert said:

whiteside67 said:

Say I am going up a hill in 5th gear and need to change down to 4th for acceleration e.g. to overtake. My foot is already half way down on the accelator pedal. When i press clutch to change down does this not cause clutch wear beacause my foot is a good bit down on the accelerator (quite high revs going through clutch)

Yes, if you dip the clutch at half throttle, the revs will go up and almost certainly by too much for your rev match anyway. So I think you'd reduce the throttle before pressing the clutch (blending the two I guess) to avoid both problems.

As I am carp at rev matching, I use a blip anyway, so I do let the revs drop. I find it easier to blip the throttle and find a good clutch engagement point rather than try to find the right revs and hold them there.

Bert

That's what I do too. I'm not sure how long I've been doing it that way, but I first realised that was what I was doing several years ago; and I still don't know how it happened. It's not the conventional way of doing rev matching, but I think our way is probably quicker, and it seems to give a nice result.

To be quite honest, I've often thought that the way advanced drivers perform gearchanges seems unduly slow and rather laboured (sorry guys); whereas I prefer the changes to be slick and swift, but without showing any sign of being rushed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv86v2vGELc

I know this isn't on a public road, but if it was it would be pretty rapid and I would say the gearchanges are deliberate and unhurried.

To me the whole thing looked orderly and unhurried, almost leisurely actually. Very nice.

Mind you, he was changing gear mid-corner, and therefore steering with one hand, and the steering wasn't fixed either: he was turning the steering wheel at the same time as making the gearchange, and I thought that was a no-no. That'll get him condemned by some folk.

BTW, what happened to 'balancing the car' and 'being on the power before turn-in?' Has all that gone by the board as well? Heh, these 'ere 'rules' are biting the dust on a grand scale! About time too.

[StressedDave]

p1esk said:

To me the whole thing looked orderly and unhurried, almost leisurely actually. Very nice.

Mind you, he was changing gear mid-corner, and therefore steering with one hand, and the steering wasn't fixed either: he was turning the steering wheel at the same time as making the gearchange, and I thought that was a no-no. That'll get him condemned by some folk.

BTW, what happened to 'balancing the car' and 'being on the power before turn-in?' Has all that gone by the board as well? Heh, these 'ere 'rules' are biting the dust on a grand scale! About time too.

G'wan then, I'll bite if no-one else does Clearly the driver in the video has no idea what he's doing and is clearly a danger to all around him [/sarcasm]

But in reality, rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men. As VH keeps pointing out, it's what works for you not what some arcane text or even more arcane instructor says.

I thought Colin's drive was relatively staid (and rightly so - it's a demonstration to clients, not a willy waving session). It would be interesting to see whether, if he were upping the pace closer to the limit of the track whether he'd still steer one-handed and change gear mid-corner. I've got telemetry of Don Palmer round there on the limit - I'll see what Don does and we'll then get the chisel out for the tablets of stone

Edited by StressedDave on Thursday 16th January 16:09

[andy_s]

For me it sort of works well if (change down) you leave the accelerator where it is, depress clutch, engine free revs up as load is taken off, engage lower gear at the higher rev rate and voila - a neat change.

[standards]

andy_s said:

For me it sort of works well if (change down) you leave the accelerator where it is, depress clutch, engine free revs up as load is taken off, engage lower gear at the higher rev rate and voila - a neat change.

This mostly works for me too.

[MC Bodge]

andy_s said:

For me it sort of works well if (change down) you leave the accelerator where it is, depress clutch, engine free revs up as load is taken off, engage lower gear at the higher rev rate and voila - a neat change.

That can give a 'sort-of' baseline, but it does depend upon the car and the situation.

[goldblum]

Where's the "Zen" bit? I was expecting something vaguely existential; an epiphany or two that came to people when sat in their garage practising changing gear for hours on end and perfecting the technique whilst learning about losing ego and realising the futility of life. Instead it's bks about cars.

[MC Bodge]

goldblum said:

Where's the "Zen" bit? I was expecting something vaguely existential; an epiphany or two that came to people when sat in their garage practising changing gear for hours on end and perfecting the technique whilst learning about losing ego and realising the futility of life. Instead it's bks about cars.

It's all Phaedrus' fault

[Foppo]

What about the difference in gearboxes? Mitsubishi manual gesarbox very easy to change gears.Up or down in the box.The Citroen c4 G/Picasso awkward sometimes.Problaby me.

[Foppo]

Sorry gearbox.

[blearyeyedboy]

I've read this and I'm trying to apply this thumb up/thumb down business.

I can see what it's getting at and I hope it'll help me. Like any new skill, it feels pretty awkward to begin with but concentrating on changing gear is good for me. I'm also trying harder at avoiding BGOL... (Yes, I know, that oft-discussed chestnut!)

So I'm considering myself rusty, but trying to improve. If you're back here reading this, OP, thank you for taking the time to explain it- even years later, there are a few of us appreciating and trying to take on board what you've said.