Zen and the art of changing gear.
Discussion
Not that he'll read this nowadays, but I was mildly amused to read R_U_LOCAL's comment in regard to ECUs artificially controlling the throttle, namely that a TVR is his ideal car because it lacks such driver aids.
I hate to break it to him, but on a Rover V8 powered TVR the ECU does indeed hold the throttle bypass valve further open when the car is moving, thus making it slightly less likely that you'll lock the rear wheels during a clumsy gear change.
You can see it happen if you coast to a halt with the clutch disengaged. The engine idles at about 1200 RPM until you actually stop, and then the revs settle back to about 900.
Sorry, even TVRs have some driver aids!
I hate to break it to him, but on a Rover V8 powered TVR the ECU does indeed hold the throttle bypass valve further open when the car is moving, thus making it slightly less likely that you'll lock the rear wheels during a clumsy gear change.
You can see it happen if you coast to a halt with the clutch disengaged. The engine idles at about 1200 RPM until you actually stop, and then the revs settle back to about 900.
Sorry, even TVRs have some driver aids!
R_U_LOCAL said:
MX5.
Sorry - couldn't resist that. It seemed like the most appropriate comment with which to return to the PH forums after a 7 year break!To whoever resurrected this thread - thank you. Glad it's still being read and that some people still find it useful. I posted some other stuff on here around the same time and it kept me busy for a while.
I've been an occasional lurker on PH over the last couple of years, but a change in career took up a lot of my time and I decided to have a break from actually posting. Not sure if I'll go back to posting regularly, but a friendly phone call from a PH member a few weeks ago made me aware that this thread was still running so I thought I'd bob in and say hello.
So hello.
And MX5.
Great read Reg, but a quick question...
Why do you recommend not blipping the throttle on downshift? Surely holding revs on is more likely to encourage the engine to hold speed, whereas a blip matches revs and as long as you nail a nice fast clutch release, you get them help of the engine on the way down.
I blip the throttle under normal driving (whether while braking or just down shifting) and find holding revs can even make things more difficult...
Why do you recommend not blipping the throttle on downshift? Surely holding revs on is more likely to encourage the engine to hold speed, whereas a blip matches revs and as long as you nail a nice fast clutch release, you get them help of the engine on the way down.
I blip the throttle under normal driving (whether while braking or just down shifting) and find holding revs can even make things more difficult...
waremark said:
Welcome back Reg, the stuff you wrote and your videos were all great - well, maybe not the knees but all the rest! Do you still have MX5 and M3? Is your new career driving related?
Thanks! The M3 became somewhat uneconomical to run following a three month period when the SMG gearbox needed a rebuild and then the VANOS decided to let go, so I ended up cutting my losses & selling it on. I still miss it every day though! I've currently got a BMW 120d coupe as my daily driver and although I'm not really a diesel fanboy, it's a very nice drive and you can't argue with 50+mpg and 170bhp.I've still got the MX5! It's SORNed at the moment but I've been slowly modifying it into a road-going track day car. I've done quite a few track days in it at Oulton Park, Anglesey, Cadwell Park and Blyton Park. Still learning new skills!
I now work as Licensing Manager for a local Authority. I've gone from working with some of the best drivers on the road to regulating some of the worst - taxi drivers! Along with pubs, clubs, bookmakers, pet shops, tattooists, scrap metal dealers etc. etc.
The taxi drivers love me! *
And the knees are still good thanks.
- The taxi drivers do not love me.
Edited by R_U_LOCAL on Saturday 15th March 12:41
DHB07 said:
Great read Reg, but a quick question...
Why do you recommend not blipping the throttle on downshift? Surely holding revs on is more likely to encourage the engine to hold speed, whereas a blip matches revs and as long as you nail a nice fast clutch release, you get them help of the engine on the way down.
I blip the throttle under normal driving (whether while braking or just down shifting) and find holding revs can even make things more difficult...
If blipping the throttle works for you then carry on blipping!Why do you recommend not blipping the throttle on downshift? Surely holding revs on is more likely to encourage the engine to hold speed, whereas a blip matches revs and as long as you nail a nice fast clutch release, you get them help of the engine on the way down.
I blip the throttle under normal driving (whether while braking or just down shifting) and find holding revs can even make things more difficult...
Don't forget this is road driving and my recommended method doesn't just involve raising (rather than blipping) the throttle, but also includes a slower, smoother shift action and a slower, smoother clutch operation.
I completely understand that it's more fun to drive in a sporty manner, heel-toeing and throttle blipping, but any change in technique from the one you're familiar with can feel odd or ungainly at first. In my opinion, my technique keeps any weight transfer during gear changes to a minimum and keeps the car as stable as possible at high speeds. It also reduces mechanical wear and feels nicer for passengers.
It's probably not, however, the ideal technique for competition or track days where you're looking for maximum performance over every other consideration.
Like all the best advice is obvious when you think about it and you wonder why you never did think about it.
One of my cars has a flappy paddle single clutch automated manual gearbox and a fair bit of power. The gear changes are far from smooth if you either leave it to do its own thing or lift when changing up and in effect I've learnt to feather the throttle slightly when changing up and it's now pretty smooth. I'm not sure it's easier or grader to make it smooth in a car like this as the actual change is done in half a second when you pull the trigger but the advice here rings true in this instance.
For down shifts though it sounds like they need a different approach to lifting. While the gearbox auto blips on a downshift the throttle input needs to increase not decrease to raise engine speed? If I was downshifting to increase the ability to accelerate then this I imagine is true but if I was braking for a corner then maybe not needed? The zen of changing gear with flappy paddles would be welcome! Any thoughts?
Apologies to the true manual drivers who think I've sold my soul - the car in question was only available with that style of gearbox at the time.
One of my cars has a flappy paddle single clutch automated manual gearbox and a fair bit of power. The gear changes are far from smooth if you either leave it to do its own thing or lift when changing up and in effect I've learnt to feather the throttle slightly when changing up and it's now pretty smooth. I'm not sure it's easier or grader to make it smooth in a car like this as the actual change is done in half a second when you pull the trigger but the advice here rings true in this instance.
For down shifts though it sounds like they need a different approach to lifting. While the gearbox auto blips on a downshift the throttle input needs to increase not decrease to raise engine speed? If I was downshifting to increase the ability to accelerate then this I imagine is true but if I was braking for a corner then maybe not needed? The zen of changing gear with flappy paddles would be welcome! Any thoughts?
Apologies to the true manual drivers who think I've sold my soul - the car in question was only available with that style of gearbox at the time.
Jon1967x said:
Like all the best advice is obvious when you think about it and you wonder why you never did think about it.
One of my cars has a flappy paddle single clutch automated manual gearbox and a fair bit of power. The gear changes are far from smooth if you either leave it to do its own thing or lift when changing up and in effect I've learnt to feather the throttle slightly when changing up and it's now pretty smooth. I'm not sure it's easier or grader to make it smooth in a car like this as the actual change is done in half a second when you pull the trigger but the advice here rings true in this instance.
For down shifts though it sounds like they need a different approach to lifting. While the gearbox auto blips on a downshift the throttle input needs to increase not decrease to raise engine speed? If I was downshifting to increase the ability to accelerate then this I imagine is true but if I was braking for a corner then maybe not needed? The zen of changing gear with flappy paddles would be welcome! Any thoughts?
Apologies to the true manual drivers who think I've sold my soul - the car in question was only available with that style of gearbox at the time.
I wrote a thread on this subject back in the day...One of my cars has a flappy paddle single clutch automated manual gearbox and a fair bit of power. The gear changes are far from smooth if you either leave it to do its own thing or lift when changing up and in effect I've learnt to feather the throttle slightly when changing up and it's now pretty smooth. I'm not sure it's easier or grader to make it smooth in a car like this as the actual change is done in half a second when you pull the trigger but the advice here rings true in this instance.
For down shifts though it sounds like they need a different approach to lifting. While the gearbox auto blips on a downshift the throttle input needs to increase not decrease to raise engine speed? If I was downshifting to increase the ability to accelerate then this I imagine is true but if I was braking for a corner then maybe not needed? The zen of changing gear with flappy paddles would be welcome! Any thoughts?
Apologies to the true manual drivers who think I've sold my soul - the car in question was only available with that style of gearbox at the time.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Please bear in mind that this is now 7 years old and technology has moved on, but I think the principles are the same.
I learned to change gear as a teenager in the 1970s in a 1950s tractor with a slow revving, heavy flywheeled, diesel engine and non-syncromesh 'crash' gearbox, double-declutching up and down the gears (in my eyes) like a rally driver. They really weren't designed to even change gears while on the move, but anyone who mastered this will never have a problem changing gears on any car, bike or anything else. I taught both my kids to do clutchless gearchanges on their modern cars and it made a huge difference to their driving smoothness.
PS. I always 'blipped' the throttle both up and down if you can call it 'blipping' when you're using a hand throttle on an engine with 2200 max rpm and a flywheel the size of Jupiter's rings.
PS. I always 'blipped' the throttle both up and down if you can call it 'blipping' when you're using a hand throttle on an engine with 2200 max rpm and a flywheel the size of Jupiter's rings.
Edited by vanordinaire on Tuesday 18th March 09:20
Having driven a fair number of cars with different paddle-shift gear boxes, I find that they are all (well not quite all) different. You have to try out different approaches to see what gives the best result in each car - and not only in each car, but in each of the various modes available in each car.
Hi All (first post) and thanks to R_U_LOCAL for this great post. I'm just about to buy a lovely A3 3.2Q manual (after 8 years with an A4 2.5tdiQ) and I thought that the extra 100 ponies on the lighter car warranted a review of my driving skills...which led me here.
I've often been told my driving is 'smooth' but I don't follow the procedures laid out above and I often notice that slight jerkiness on changing so I guess my passengers were either being sarky or have low expectations due to their own crappy driving?!
In any event, it's off to an advanced course of some kind for me!
I've often been told my driving is 'smooth' but I don't follow the procedures laid out above and I often notice that slight jerkiness on changing so I guess my passengers were either being sarky or have low expectations due to their own crappy driving?!
In any event, it's off to an advanced course of some kind for me!
Autos of various types simply do a better job in most situations than a manual can. But some of us still find using a manual more satisfying. One of the most satisfying aspects is rev matching accurately. Various new cars with manual gearboxes blip automatically to rev match downchanges, and I see that the new Mini Cooper S auto rev matches both up and down changes. Who can see a point to having a three pedal car if it auto rev matches? Having recently changed my DCT car for one with a traditional manual transmission I don't think there would have been any point in getting one which did the rev matching for me.
In the original post
It would feel even smoother, except maybe with a dual mass flywheel that irons out failings in technique anyway, if the clutch were depressed at 4500rpm, while easing off the gas as the clutch passes through the biting point, with much the same final result.
R_U_LOCAL said:
I regularly get friends asking me to take them out for a few hours driver training....
....Lets assume we're about to change up from 2nd to 3rd in an average car, at about 40MPH. In this imaginary average car, the engine will be doing 5000RPM at 40MPH in 2nd gear, and 3000RPM at the same speed in 3rd.
Before you start to change gear, ease off the accelerator slightly so the rate of acceleration slows.
If the revs are going up to 5000rpm, it seems that the idea is to make fairly brisk progress. If that's the case then why would you want the rate of acceleration to slow unnecessarily, it will obviously do so as soon as the clutch is depressed.....Lets assume we're about to change up from 2nd to 3rd in an average car, at about 40MPH. In this imaginary average car, the engine will be doing 5000RPM at 40MPH in 2nd gear, and 3000RPM at the same speed in 3rd.
Before you start to change gear, ease off the accelerator slightly so the rate of acceleration slows.
It would feel even smoother, except maybe with a dual mass flywheel that irons out failings in technique anyway, if the clutch were depressed at 4500rpm, while easing off the gas as the clutch passes through the biting point, with much the same final result.
Martin A said:
If the revs are going up to 5000rpm, it seems that the idea is to make fairly brisk progress. If that's the case then why would you want the rate of acceleration to slow unnecessarily, it will obviously do so as soon as the clutch is depressed.
It would feel even smoother, except maybe with a dual mass flywheel that irons out failings in technique anyway, if the clutch were depressed at 4500rpm, while easing off the gas as the clutch passes through the biting point, with much the same final result.
It's not smoother in my experience. But if it works for you, fine.......It would feel even smoother, except maybe with a dual mass flywheel that irons out failings in technique anyway, if the clutch were depressed at 4500rpm, while easing off the gas as the clutch passes through the biting point, with much the same final result.
Martin A said:
If the revs are going up to 5000rpm, it seems that the idea is to make fairly brisk progress. If that's the case then why would you want the rate of acceleration to slow unnecessarily, it will obviously do so as soon as the clutch is depressed.
I'm only guessing, and I might have misunderstood either his description or yours, but is the idea is to try and reduce the rate of change of acceleration? That might be smoother in the sense of, for example, avoiding too much nodding dog for the passengers. I'd have thought a desire for that needn't be incompatible with a desire for brisk progress, although it might impact on the briskness a little.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff