Zen and the art of changing gear.
Discussion
Lord Grover said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Oh, and a quick note on holding the gearstick. Police driving schools teach the "thumb up and thumb down" method and I quite like it, as it encourages you to place sideways pressure in the correct direction, and helps to avoid selecting the wrong gear. Basically, hold the gearstick with the palm of your hand, and if you're selecting first or second, point your thumb down. If you're selecting third, fourth or fifth (or sixth!), point your thumb upwards. If you place the pressure on the gearstick with your palm, you'll always move the gearstick in the right direction.
It's probably only a minor point, but I don't quite get this... with the palm of my left hand on the gear knob, my thumb's horizontal, 'pointing' forward. Clearly I'm missing something here or you're suggesting I need some surgery to enable a double-jointed thumb.
I expect the type of car you're driving makes a difference. In a sports car, where you're sitting lower, you are likely to find your left forearm is close to being horizontal, in which case the thumb down style will not be a natural position.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I have to make people aware of a "yes but" here.
On many modern cars (by which I mean mainly everyday road cars rather than premium models) the engine management system will already attempt to hold the revs up whilst changing gear. It uses data from the road speed sensor and clutch sense switch to modulate the idle control valve or drive-by-wire butterfly valve motor to keep the throttle open. So don't be surprised if, when you try, the engine revs go way up when you only wanted 1500rpm more or so. It has caught me out in the past, and I thought it was just my judgement that had somehow deteriorated. It also gives the impression that the engine has a huge flywheel mass.
On many modern cars (by which I mean mainly everyday road cars rather than premium models) the engine management system will already attempt to hold the revs up whilst changing gear. It uses data from the road speed sensor and clutch sense switch to modulate the idle control valve or drive-by-wire butterfly valve motor to keep the throttle open. So don't be surprised if, when you try, the engine revs go way up when you only wanted 1500rpm more or so. It has caught me out in the past, and I thought it was just my judgement that had somehow deteriorated. It also gives the impression that the engine has a huge flywheel mass.
Zad said:
I have to make people aware of a "yes but" here.
On many modern cars (by which I mean mainly everyday road cars rather than premium models) the engine management system will already attempt to hold the revs up whilst changing gear. It uses data from the road speed sensor and clutch sense switch to modulate the idle control valve or drive-by-wire butterfly valve motor to keep the throttle open. So don't be surprised if, when you try, the engine revs go way up when you only wanted 1500rpm more or so. It has caught me out in the past, and I thought it was just my judgement that had somehow deteriorated. It also gives the impression that the engine has a huge flywheel mass.
On many modern cars (by which I mean mainly everyday road cars rather than premium models) the engine management system will already attempt to hold the revs up whilst changing gear. It uses data from the road speed sensor and clutch sense switch to modulate the idle control valve or drive-by-wire butterfly valve motor to keep the throttle open. So don't be surprised if, when you try, the engine revs go way up when you only wanted 1500rpm more or so. It has caught me out in the past, and I thought it was just my judgement that had somehow deteriorated. It also gives the impression that the engine has a huge flywheel mass.
I have to say, this is something I wasn't aware of.
And another reason why a TVR is probably my ideal car.
*Reg is not a big fan of driver aids*
R_U_LOCAL said:
Zad said:
I have to make people aware of a "yes but" here.
On many modern cars (by which I mean mainly everyday road cars rather than premium models) the engine management system will already attempt to hold the revs up whilst changing gear. It uses data from the road speed sensor and clutch sense switch to modulate the idle control valve or drive-by-wire butterfly valve motor to keep the throttle open. So don't be surprised if, when you try, the engine revs go way up when you only wanted 1500rpm more or so. It has caught me out in the past, and I thought it was just my judgement that had somehow deteriorated. It also gives the impression that the engine has a huge flywheel mass.
On many modern cars (by which I mean mainly everyday road cars rather than premium models) the engine management system will already attempt to hold the revs up whilst changing gear. It uses data from the road speed sensor and clutch sense switch to modulate the idle control valve or drive-by-wire butterfly valve motor to keep the throttle open. So don't be surprised if, when you try, the engine revs go way up when you only wanted 1500rpm more or so. It has caught me out in the past, and I thought it was just my judgement that had somehow deteriorated. It also gives the impression that the engine has a huge flywheel mass.
I have to say, this is something I wasn't aware of.
And another reason why a TVR is probably my ideal car.
*Reg is not a big fan of driver aids*
I know somebody that doesn't mind having a few driver aids, but he sure as hell doesn't want to have a piece of machinery telling him how things have to be done!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
R_U_LOCAL said:
brap_brap said:
I've got some bad shift habits I'm sure, and I'd certainly like to improve where I can. Now that I own a TVR I'll starting using the clutch more. I have a question however.
If you can shift smoothly using nothing but throttle and your ear, does synchronised shifting
actually cause any damage provided you're not forcing it into gear and it goes smoothly, gently and silently? I've been doing it for years and have yet to kill a standard trasmission.
If you can do it smoothly then no, it won't cause any damage. I've used clutchless gearchanging as an excersise for students to show when they're matching road speed to engine speed correctly.
I've also covered some fairly extensive mileage in a 1922 3 litre Bentley, in which it was recommended that you change up without the clutch, and in which I found that downchanges were also easier sans clutch, providing you got the revs exactly right. Of course, this car had no synchromesh, but you can use the same technique with modern cars.
If you combine your technique with use of the clutch, then I'm sure you'll be able to change almost seamlessly in your TVR.
Can you explain synchronised shifting (is this the same as clutchless gear changing) in any more detail. Does the above mean that you pull out of gear without use of the clutch, then when in neutral use the accelerator to match the engine speed to your next chosen gear - when engine speed is correctly matched, then slide into gear without use of clutch again?
Or have i got that completley wrong?
Cheers
AGAR said:
Can you explain synchronised shifting (is this the same as clutchless gear changing) in any more detail. Does the above mean that you pull out of gear without use of the clutch, then when in neutral use the accelerator to match the engine speed to your next chosen gear - when engine speed is correctly matched, then slide into gear without use of clutch again?
Or have i got that completley wrong?
Cheers
Or have i got that completley wrong?
Cheers
I suppose by "synchronised shifting", we mean driving as though the gearbox doesn't have synchromesh, and so the synchronisation of road speed to engine speed for a chosen gear is done by the driver operating the throttle. It can be with or without the clutch, and refers specifically to the operation of the throttle when changing gear.
R_U_LOCAL said:
AGAR said:
Can you explain synchronised shifting (is this the same as clutchless gear changing) in any more detail. Does the above mean that you pull out of gear without use of the clutch, then when in neutral use the accelerator to match the engine speed to your next chosen gear - when engine speed is correctly matched, then slide into gear without use of clutch again?
Or have i got that completley wrong?
Cheers
Or have i got that completley wrong?
Cheers
I suppose by "synchronised shifting", we mean driving as though the gearbox doesn't have synchromesh, and so the synchronisation of road speed to engine speed for a chosen gear is done by the driver operating the throttle. It can be with or without the clutch, and refers specifically to the operation of the throttle when changing gear.
I understand now. However I assume most cars these days ofcourse have synchromesh - so what is the advantage of clutchless gear changes in cars that already have synchromesh, over using your clutch? From my (basic driving abilty/knowledge of advanced driving techniques) point of view, it would take far longer to change gear without the use of a clutch - i assume perfection of the technique must reverse this idea?
AGAR said:
I understand now. However I assume most cars these days ofcourse have synchromesh - so what is the advantage of clutchless gear changes in cars that already have synchromesh, over using your clutch? From my (basic driving abilty/knowledge of advanced driving techniques) point of view, it would take far longer to change gear without the use of a clutch - i assume perfection of the technique must reverse this idea?
There isn't an advantage. I have used clutchless changing in the past as a teaching aid to help students learn how to time their gearchanges and match engine revs properly, but it's no more than an interesting excersise these days. It could come in useful if you ever have a clutch failure of course - much better to be able to limp home rather than wait hours for an expensive recovery truck, but in everyday driving, you're much better using the clutch for changing gear.
R_U_LOCAL said:
AGAR said:
I understand now. However I assume most cars these days ofcourse have synchromesh - so what is the advantage of clutchless gear changes in cars that already have synchromesh, over using your clutch? From my (basic driving abilty/knowledge of advanced driving techniques) point of view, it would take far longer to change gear without the use of a clutch - i assume perfection of the technique must reverse this idea?
There isn't an advantage. I have used clutchless changing in the past as a teaching aid to help students learn how to time their gearchanges and match engine revs properly, but it's no more than an interesting excersise these days. It could come in useful if you ever have a clutch failure of course - much better to be able to limp home rather than wait hours for an expensive recovery truck, but in everyday driving, you're much better using the clutch for changing gear.
Useful ability when the bl@@dy clutch cable has broken.
As happened to me in my Mother's, under 1 year old, original Fiat Panda.
Mind, if memory is correct, it's coming to a stop and then getting moving that's the problem.
I did notice that, on her next Panda, Fiat had modified the clutch cable.
No real problem - slip it into neutral before you roll to a stop, turn off the engine, select first, set off again on the starter motor as you would if you were doing a stall-retrieve in a 4X4 and you're away!
You do look a bit of a tit kangarooing away from the lights, but needs must when the devil pisses in your kettle.
You do look a bit of a tit kangarooing away from the lights, but needs must when the devil pisses in your kettle.
TripleS said:
Lord Grover said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Oh, and a quick note on holding the gearstick. Police driving schools teach the "thumb up and thumb down" method and I quite like it, as it encourages you to place sideways pressure in the correct direction, and helps to avoid selecting the wrong gear. Basically, hold the gearstick with the palm of your hand, and if you're selecting first or second, point your thumb down. If you're selecting third, fourth or fifth (or sixth!), point your thumb upwards. If you place the pressure on the gearstick with your palm, you'll always move the gearstick in the right direction.
It's probably only a minor point, but I don't quite get this... with the palm of my left hand on the gear knob, my thumb's horizontal, 'pointing' forward. Clearly I'm missing something here or you're suggesting I need some surgery to enable a double-jointed thumb.
I expect the type of car you're driving makes a difference. In a sports car, where you're sitting lower, you are likely to find your left forearm is close to being horizontal, in which case the thumb down style will not be a natural position.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I read about thumb up thumb down, thought "what a load of tosh", gave it a go, wasn't keen but kept trying, and now I can't bloody stop most of the time
I think if it's that natural you can't stop it has to be right, I think!?
Dave
Just wanted to say, i found this quite an interesting read. Ages ago when my clutch cable went, and i had a long journey, i learnt all about clutchless gearshifting the hard way! Having to stop was a nightmare though- at junctions, i had to will the lights to stay green. When they didnt, it was a case of stop engine, go into 2nd, start engine, and bounce into life. (I felt 1st gear was putting a bit to much strain on the box)
I often blip or gently press throttle to make downshifts sliky smooth, but i've never really thought about lowering the revs slightly for the upshifts. Theres some useful tips there i'll try to adopt into my driving, especially the hand position.
Good work that man
I often blip or gently press throttle to make downshifts sliky smooth, but i've never really thought about lowering the revs slightly for the upshifts. Theres some useful tips there i'll try to adopt into my driving, especially the hand position.
Good work that man
Edited by Fordo on Wednesday 4th April 12:58
benbeck1984 said:
in my first car I went through a lot of clutches and my dad came out with me one day and said it was because of the way i changed gear, like you've said, easing the accelorator in as i lift the clutch. It feels smoother to me, but does it annihilate my clutch?
Not at all - quite the opposite, in fact. I've been driving 20 years, and I do an average of 15,000 miles a year in my own cars and I've never - once - had to replace a clutch in any of them. Granted, for the first few years of driving, that was probably more down to luck than good judgement, but if you match engine revs to road speed, then you're minimising clutch slip during a gearchange, and consequently keeping clutch wear to a minimum.
If you combine the technique with using as little clutch-slip as possible when setting off, and religiously using the handbrake when you're stopped on an incline, then your clutch will love you.
Sitting on the clutch when stationary is one of my all time pet hates. I physically cringe when I see people doing it next to me in traffic.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Sitting on the clutch when stationary is one of my all time pet hates. I physically cringe when I see people doing it next to me in traffic.
How many people do sit there in gear on the clutch? I reckon it's probably a large majority, judging by the minimal delay I see between the green and them actually moving off. (Maybe some of those are anticipating the green by looking at reflections of the other lights, but I doubt that many are.)
The whole thumb up, thumb down thing, it is an exercise in pain? I couldn't quite get what you were all talking about till I saw the pics in roadcraft. Now, thumb up isn't that bad, it is pretty much what I do when changing up anyway. But I found for the thumb down, I ended up twisting my wrist and sticking my elbow out quite a bit. Not really very comfy really. I usually tend to use about 3 fingers cupping the ball of the gearstick to push the stick into neutral and then again down in to 2nd or 4th.
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