The darkest of the dark arts - overtaking
Discussion
vonhosen said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree then - I have my reasons for not using it, which I believe are valid, and you have your reasons for advocating it, which you believe are valid. I can see your point of view as, I'm sure, you can see mine.
People will just have to make their own minds up.
People will just have to make their own minds up.
Agreed.
I know some forces similarly don't allow any apexing at all. That is also an unnecessary restriction IMHO.
I've been surprised to hear how different police driving schools differ from each other in their rules and policies. One might have thought there would be more of a countrywide standard.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
vonhosen said:
GreenV8S said:
vonhosen said:
You should only be close where you have sufficient visibility ahead & it's only going to be for short times.
That depends how you define 'close' though doesn't it? You need to be prepared to respond to any reasonably forseeable event, and if you're so close that this means you have to be poised to react at a moment's notice then it might be OK for short times. The reason it's not OK for longer periods is imo that the driver is unlikely to be willing and able to sustain that level of concentration/focus. If I'm at a comfortable distance on the motorway I know I can perform routine mirror and instrument checks and glance at the radio etc without compromising my ability to respond to events in front of me. I sure as hell wouldn't be playing with the radio if I was pushing forward in preparation for an overtake.
I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, just restating that it is the driver's ability to maintain adequately fast reactions that defines how close they can follow safely and for how long.
I don't disagree. I'm talking about a style of purposeful driving that demands total concentration on the task in hand. It is not what could be considered normal driving & to be able to do so for lengthy periods requires conditioning for that task, just like any other physically or mentally demanding activity. It is very tiring & you have to work to acquire the stamina needed.
That's interesting, Von. We often hear people here saying that driving requires 100% concentration the whole of the time, and I've never agreed with that. It sounds as if you don't either.
It just doesn't seem feasible to devote 100% concentration all the time on a longish drive. I know it's not the same as road driving, but I believe even racing drivers take a little time off to relax on the straighter portions of a circuit, unless they're in close competition with another car.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
It just doesn't seem feasible to devote 100% concentration all the time on a longish drive. I know it's not the same as road driving, but I believe even racing drivers take a little time off to relax on the straighter portions of a circuit, unless they're in close competition with another car.
I can maintained a normal relaxed but alert driving attitude for about three hours under typical conditions, by that I mean keeping my mind on the job of driving and the associated tasks and basically staying alert.
On the track I can drive fairly close to the limit of the car for about ten minutes, consisting of intense concentration on the approach to each hazard and a slight relaxation and 'taking stock' on the way out.
Driving absolutely on the ragged edge of my abilities I can do for about a minute and a half. By coincidence, that's the length of a typical sprint. Actually it isn't a coincidence. At the end I've flooded with adrenalin and short of breath and it feels like much longer.
Although I ought to be able to go faster on a track day than at a sprint, because I have time to practice the circuit lap after lap and the tyres and brakes are nice and hot, in reality I am always much slower because I simply can't sustain that level of aggression for long.
TripleS said:
vonhosen said:
GreenV8S said:
vonhosen said:
You should only be close where you have sufficient visibility ahead & it's only going to be for short times.
That depends how you define 'close' though doesn't it? You need to be prepared to respond to any reasonably forseeable event, and if you're so close that this means you have to be poised to react at a moment's notice then it might be OK for short times. The reason it's not OK for longer periods is imo that the driver is unlikely to be willing and able to sustain that level of concentration/focus. If I'm at a comfortable distance on the motorway I know I can perform routine mirror and instrument checks and glance at the radio etc without compromising my ability to respond to events in front of me. I sure as hell wouldn't be playing with the radio if I was pushing forward in preparation for an overtake.
I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, just restating that it is the driver's ability to maintain adequately fast reactions that defines how close they can follow safely and for how long.
I don't disagree. I'm talking about a style of purposeful driving that demands total concentration on the task in hand. It is not what could be considered normal driving & to be able to do so for lengthy periods requires conditioning for that task, just like any other physically or mentally demanding activity. It is very tiring & you have to work to acquire the stamina needed.
That's interesting, Von. We often hear people here saying that driving requires 100% concentration the whole of the time, and I've never agreed with that. It sounds as if you don't either.
It just doesn't seem feasible to devote 100% concentration all the time on a longish drive. I know it's not the same as road driving, but I believe even racing drivers take a little time off to relax on the straighter portions of a circuit, unless they're in close competition with another car.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Attempting to make "Maximum" safe progress on public roads requires 100% concentration for the time that you are doing that activity. It is a hazard rich environment & danger lurks everywhere.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 10th March 18:36
vonhosen said:
Attempting to make "Maximum" safe progress on public roads requires 100% concentration for the time that you are doing that activity. It is a hazard rich environment & danger lurks everywhere.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 10th March 18:36
Yes, during any periods in which we're seeking to make 'maximum' safe progress, but are we consciously in that mode much of the time? It's all a matter of degree I suppose - how many tenths etc. (or does that only relate to competition driving?) - and what keeps one driver intensely occupied may feel a good deal easier to maintain by another.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I have a situation I'd like to put to all the instructors on here?
Today I was following a horse box, down a B road. I am in a relatively low powered car, but still, I wished to pass the box. Behind me was a big powerful Saab, who had been come up behind me quite quick.
I knew the road ahead quite well - coming up is a wide, long straight with good sighting. I sat behind the Box till we came onto the straight, and overtook the horse box in the way I felt best, lots of time, the horsebox knew I was coming, all pretty safe I thought.
Bear in mind I have checked behind me, when started the manouvre there was no sign the saab was going to follow, and it was about 3 or 4 seconds behind.
However, as I drew level with the box, the Saab with its much higher power than me, decides to follow - so he boots it right up my arse. Now I know I have time to complete the manouvre, but what about the other guy?
I dont know if he wants to pass me, or just the box?
I didnt pull straight in, I continued as I felt appropriate, giving the horsebox lots of room before sliding back across - however Mr Saab seemingly wanted me to have pulled right back infront of the box, so he could pass me. He's accelerating right up my arse, and as I pull back in, he sees theres a bend coming up.
So now, I dont know whats going on - is he going to try to get infront of me, or pull in behind? I shouldnt slow down to let him in, as then It would affect the Horsebox - and I cant really put my foot down to create a bigger ggap behind me - My car wont pull any faster, Theres a corner coming, and finally its not my prerogative to make room for someone else.
What actually happened was the Saab got alongside me, and drove alongside for a goods few seconds, presumably while he was being indecisive, then slammed on, pulled behind me and caused the Horsebox to brake and dodge him.
What would you do?
Today I was following a horse box, down a B road. I am in a relatively low powered car, but still, I wished to pass the box. Behind me was a big powerful Saab, who had been come up behind me quite quick.
I knew the road ahead quite well - coming up is a wide, long straight with good sighting. I sat behind the Box till we came onto the straight, and overtook the horse box in the way I felt best, lots of time, the horsebox knew I was coming, all pretty safe I thought.
Bear in mind I have checked behind me, when started the manouvre there was no sign the saab was going to follow, and it was about 3 or 4 seconds behind.
However, as I drew level with the box, the Saab with its much higher power than me, decides to follow - so he boots it right up my arse. Now I know I have time to complete the manouvre, but what about the other guy?
I dont know if he wants to pass me, or just the box?
I didnt pull straight in, I continued as I felt appropriate, giving the horsebox lots of room before sliding back across - however Mr Saab seemingly wanted me to have pulled right back infront of the box, so he could pass me. He's accelerating right up my arse, and as I pull back in, he sees theres a bend coming up.
So now, I dont know whats going on - is he going to try to get infront of me, or pull in behind? I shouldnt slow down to let him in, as then It would affect the Horsebox - and I cant really put my foot down to create a bigger ggap behind me - My car wont pull any faster, Theres a corner coming, and finally its not my prerogative to make room for someone else.
What actually happened was the Saab got alongside me, and drove alongside for a goods few seconds, presumably while he was being indecisive, then slammed on, pulled behind me and caused the Horsebox to brake and dodge him.
What would you do?
snotrag said:
I have a situation I'd like to put to all the instructors on here?
Today I was following a horse box, down a B road. I am in a relatively low powered car, but still, I wished to pass the box. Behind me was a big powerful Saab, who had been come up behind me quite quick.
I knew the road ahead quite well - coming up is a wide, long straight with good sighting. I sat behind the Box till we came onto the straight, and overtook the horse box in the way I felt best, lots of time, the horsebox knew I was coming, all pretty safe I thought.
Bear in mind I have checked behind me, when started the manouvre there was no sign the saab was going to follow, and it was about 3 or 4 seconds behind.
However, as I drew level with the box, the Saab with its much higher power than me, decides to follow - so he boots it right up my arse. Now I know I have time to complete the manouvre, but what about the other guy?
I dont know if he wants to pass me, or just the box?
I didnt pull straight in, I continued as I felt appropriate, giving the horsebox lots of room before sliding back across - however Mr Saab seemingly wanted me to have pulled right back infront of the box, so he could pass me. He's accelerating right up my arse, and as I pull back in, he sees theres a bend coming up.
So now, I dont know whats going on - is he going to try to get infront of me, or pull in behind? I shouldnt slow down to let him in, as then It would affect the Horsebox - and I cant really put my foot down to create a bigger ggap behind me - My car wont pull any faster, Theres a corner coming, and finally its not my prerogative to make room for someone else.
What actually happened was the Saab got alongside me, and drove alongside for a goods few seconds, presumably while he was being indecisive, then slammed on, pulled behind me and caused the Horsebox to brake and dodge him.
What would you do?
Today I was following a horse box, down a B road. I am in a relatively low powered car, but still, I wished to pass the box. Behind me was a big powerful Saab, who had been come up behind me quite quick.
I knew the road ahead quite well - coming up is a wide, long straight with good sighting. I sat behind the Box till we came onto the straight, and overtook the horse box in the way I felt best, lots of time, the horsebox knew I was coming, all pretty safe I thought.
Bear in mind I have checked behind me, when started the manouvre there was no sign the saab was going to follow, and it was about 3 or 4 seconds behind.
However, as I drew level with the box, the Saab with its much higher power than me, decides to follow - so he boots it right up my arse. Now I know I have time to complete the manouvre, but what about the other guy?
I dont know if he wants to pass me, or just the box?
I didnt pull straight in, I continued as I felt appropriate, giving the horsebox lots of room before sliding back across - however Mr Saab seemingly wanted me to have pulled right back infront of the box, so he could pass me. He's accelerating right up my arse, and as I pull back in, he sees theres a bend coming up.
So now, I dont know whats going on - is he going to try to get infront of me, or pull in behind? I shouldnt slow down to let him in, as then It would affect the Horsebox - and I cant really put my foot down to create a bigger ggap behind me - My car wont pull any faster, Theres a corner coming, and finally its not my prerogative to make room for someone else.
What actually happened was the Saab got alongside me, and drove alongside for a goods few seconds, presumably while he was being indecisive, then slammed on, pulled behind me and caused the Horsebox to brake and dodge him.
What would you do?
steered a straight and steady course and awaited the bang
he was fault he should have sat out, covered you and waited for you to clear, then picked off the horse box
he could have sat out there still to assess you and the road to see if he could pick you off
snotrag said:
Stuff about a tosser in a Saab.
What would you do?
What would you do?
I hope the Saab driver has learned a valuable lesson there - never follow someone else into an overtake. If it's safe for the first vehicle to go, it doesn't automatically follow that it's safe for the next one to go. Plus, how do you know the first vehicle isn't being driven by a suicidal maniac, or worse, a taxi driver?
From your description, I can't see how you could have done much different - the Saab driver put him/herself in that position, and had to sort it out themselves. You'd noticed it approaching at speed from the rear, so the actions of the Saab driver certainly formed part of your initial plan, but how could you have expected them to have made the decision to follow you? And what else could you have done to help them sort their mistake out? Not much by the sound of things.
TripleS said:
vonhosen said:
Attempting to make "Maximum" safe progress on public roads requires 100% concentration for the time that you are doing that activity. It is a hazard rich environment & danger lurks everywhere.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 10th March 18:36
Yes, during any periods in which we're seeking to make 'maximum' safe progress, but are we consciously in that mode much of the time? It's all a matter of degree I suppose - how many tenths etc. (or does that only relate to competition driving?) - and what keeps one driver intensely occupied may feel a good deal easier to maintain by another.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Maximum safe progress will mean the same level of application for whichever driver is doing it. It's the amount of progress actually made that will be variable between drivers.
Of course though, some spend rather more of their day in such a mode than others, because circumstances & legality dictates it so.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 10th March 23:12
AL666 said:
A couple of questions; What is 'apexing' and what is 'clog and anchor'?
Sorry if they're both regularly-used turns of phrase, but I've never heard either....
AL.
Sorry if they're both regularly-used turns of phrase, but I've never heard either....
AL.
Apexing is straightening or smoothing out a curved path (kerb line to kerb (geometric centre of corner) line).
Clog & Anchor is a term used to describe a lack of acceleration sense.
Hard acceleration, followed by hard braking. Rather than realising that the braking is going to be required early & coming off the drive in order to lose some or all of the required speed loss through acceleration sense.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 10th March 23:09
vonhosen said:
AL666 said:
A couple of questions; What is 'apexing' and what is 'clog and anchor'?
Sorry if they're both regularly-used turns of phrase, but I've never heard either....
AL.
Sorry if they're both regularly-used turns of phrase, but I've never heard either....
AL.
Apexing is straightening or smoothing out a curved path (kerb line to kerb (geometric centre of corner) line).
Clog & Anchor is a term used to describe a lack of acceleration sense.
Hard acceleration, followed by hard braking. Rather than realising that the braking is going to be required early & coming off the drive in order to lose some or all of the required speed loss through acceleration sense.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 10th March 23:09
Ahh, ok. I thought that that would probably be what apexing was (hitting the apex of the corners), but couldn't think of a reason why it wouldn't be used if you wanted to make smooth, brisk progress on the roads. Thanks for the info Von.
snotrag said:
I have a situation I'd like to put to all the instructors on here?
Today I was following a horse box, down a B road. I am in a relatively low powered car, but still, I wished to pass the box. Behind me was a big powerful Saab, who had been come up behind me quite quick.
I knew the road ahead quite well - coming up is a wide, long straight with good sighting. I sat behind the Box till we came onto the straight, and overtook the horse box in the way I felt best, lots of time, the horsebox knew I was coming, all pretty safe I thought.
Bear in mind I have checked behind me, when started the manouvre there was no sign the saab was going to follow, and it was about 3 or 4 seconds behind.
However, as I drew level with the box, the Saab with its much higher power than me, decides to follow - so he boots it right up my arse. Now I know I have time to complete the manouvre, but what about the other guy?
I dont know if he wants to pass me, or just the box?
I didnt pull straight in, I continued as I felt appropriate, giving the horsebox lots of room before sliding back across - however Mr Saab seemingly wanted me to have pulled right back infront of the box, so he could pass me. He's accelerating right up my arse, and as I pull back in, he sees theres a bend coming up.
So now, I dont know whats going on - is he going to try to get infront of me, or pull in behind? I shouldnt slow down to let him in, as then It would affect the Horsebox - and I cant really put my foot down to create a bigger ggap behind me - My car wont pull any faster, Theres a corner coming, and finally its not my prerogative to make room for someone else.
What actually happened was the Saab got alongside me, and drove alongside for a goods few seconds, presumably while he was being indecisive, then slammed on, pulled behind me and caused the Horsebox to brake and dodge him.
What would you do?
Today I was following a horse box, down a B road. I am in a relatively low powered car, but still, I wished to pass the box. Behind me was a big powerful Saab, who had been come up behind me quite quick.
I knew the road ahead quite well - coming up is a wide, long straight with good sighting. I sat behind the Box till we came onto the straight, and overtook the horse box in the way I felt best, lots of time, the horsebox knew I was coming, all pretty safe I thought.
Bear in mind I have checked behind me, when started the manouvre there was no sign the saab was going to follow, and it was about 3 or 4 seconds behind.
However, as I drew level with the box, the Saab with its much higher power than me, decides to follow - so he boots it right up my arse. Now I know I have time to complete the manouvre, but what about the other guy?
I dont know if he wants to pass me, or just the box?
I didnt pull straight in, I continued as I felt appropriate, giving the horsebox lots of room before sliding back across - however Mr Saab seemingly wanted me to have pulled right back infront of the box, so he could pass me. He's accelerating right up my arse, and as I pull back in, he sees theres a bend coming up.
So now, I dont know whats going on - is he going to try to get infront of me, or pull in behind? I shouldnt slow down to let him in, as then It would affect the Horsebox - and I cant really put my foot down to create a bigger ggap behind me - My car wont pull any faster, Theres a corner coming, and finally its not my prerogative to make room for someone else.
What actually happened was the Saab got alongside me, and drove alongside for a goods few seconds, presumably while he was being indecisive, then slammed on, pulled behind me and caused the Horsebox to brake and dodge him.
What would you do?
I'd have created a gap to let the Saab through first.
AL666 said:
vonhosen said:
AL666 said:
A couple of questions; What is 'apexing' and what is 'clog and anchor'?
Sorry if they're both regularly-used turns of phrase, but I've never heard either....
AL.
Sorry if they're both regularly-used turns of phrase, but I've never heard either....
AL.
Apexing is straightening or smoothing out a curved path (kerb line to kerb (geometric centre of corner) line).
Clog & Anchor is a term used to describe a lack of acceleration sense.
Hard acceleration, followed by hard braking. Rather than realising that the braking is going to be required early & coming off the drive in order to lose some or all of the required speed loss through acceleration sense.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 10th March 23:09
Ahh, ok. I thought that that would probably be what apexing was (hitting the apex of the corners), but couldn't think of a reason why it wouldn't be used if you wanted to make smooth, brisk progress on the roads. Thanks for the info Von.
Well if you are told not to do something that there is the potential to get wrong with misjudgement, if you then do it, it is totally down to you. Perhaps they view the risk of someone getting it wrong, greater than the benefits of apexing & therefore discourage it.
Flintstone said:
I would have thought that there might be more chance of getting it wrong by following the bends of the road than apexing (ie, driving in a straighter line) when conditions allow?
I'm thinking more about the dangers of apexing where they believe they have sufficient vision but they infact didn't, with the getting it wrong resulting in conflict with others.
If you stipulate you won't go on the wrong side in such situations, then that problem will never happen. Unless of course they ignore the instruction, but then you have them for a breach of the instruction.
Flintstone said:
That of course makes sense.
I had in mind a particular stretch of road nearby. It snakes a little to left and right but also descends so is perfect for overtaking and apexing safely.
Which would be why some interfering killjoy authorised the installation of solid white lines
I had in mind a particular stretch of road nearby. It snakes a little to left and right but also descends so is perfect for overtaking and apexing safely.
Which would be why some interfering killjoy authorised the installation of solid white lines
Same thing in effect really, that's just performed it on a mandatory legal footing for all, as opposed to a self imposed internal force regulation.
TripleS said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
It's actually a good exercise to learn how to overtake in a slow car, as the planning required for overtaking is much more intense than if you drive a fast car.
You're telling me!
Best wishes all,
Dave - a struggler with 90 bhp.
I perfected my overtaking by owning a succession of DIRE cars including 1.1 OHV fiestaa mk2. Fiat 126, AX 1.4D, Polo 1.0, but began my experience on a 12 bhp Learner bike at 17. I was insanely intested in overtaking anything that was going 3 mph slower than I wanted to go.
I feel my 117 BHP cavalier with Close ratio box is perfect for the job in hand. Any less would be no good and any more would be too easy.
Mind you there's a bend on my way home where you can see down the next 1/2 mile straight and I start my overtaking by accelerating INTO the bend.
Had some fun with this particular manoeuvre this morning! Following a Rover 214 following a tractor. The Rover passed up some good opportunities to pass in favour of holding the 2 cm gap from the back of the tractor. I hung back a reasonable distance until I saw a decent straight, indicated, booted it, then exactly as I expected to happen - started braking because the car in front started to drift out and overtake in front of me in what could only have been 5th gear.
He was so close to the obstacle that he had absolutely no idea what was coming when he pulled out - his vision completely blinded by the tractor and the driver blindly putting his faith in my ability to judge the dangers I guess. Certainly not a position I would willingly put myself in.
It highlights to me some of the typical bad driving you see though - people driving too close thinking thats the best position to start an overtake from. No real indication of intent, no checking mirrors in case someone more psychotic is coming from behind, using the wrong gear, and then at the end of the overtake pulling back in practically under the front wheels of the tractor.
If an accident had happened, you can bet your life there'd be a "he was driving too fast" statistic chalked up against that one.
Overtaking I think is definitely something that comes with practice. The more I do it, the better I feel I can judge potential gaps and decide if the pass is on or off. Too many people are happy to always sit behind and then suddenly jump out when conditions aren't correct.
He was so close to the obstacle that he had absolutely no idea what was coming when he pulled out - his vision completely blinded by the tractor and the driver blindly putting his faith in my ability to judge the dangers I guess. Certainly not a position I would willingly put myself in.
It highlights to me some of the typical bad driving you see though - people driving too close thinking thats the best position to start an overtake from. No real indication of intent, no checking mirrors in case someone more psychotic is coming from behind, using the wrong gear, and then at the end of the overtake pulling back in practically under the front wheels of the tractor.
If an accident had happened, you can bet your life there'd be a "he was driving too fast" statistic chalked up against that one.
Overtaking I think is definitely something that comes with practice. The more I do it, the better I feel I can judge potential gaps and decide if the pass is on or off. Too many people are happy to always sit behind and then suddenly jump out when conditions aren't correct.
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