The darkest of the dark arts - overtaking
Discussion
If there is one skill that is misunderstood, badly practised and which frightens and intimidates drivers more than anything else, it's overtaking.
This doesn't have to be the case - there's no big mystery to overtaking, and when it's carried out correctly, it's no more dangerous than any other manoeuvre that we carry out whilst driving. For some reason, however, the general motoring public (bless 'em) seem to view overtaking as a potentially disastrous move only carried out by idiotic johnny-boy-racers. You only have to see the reactions I sometimes get from other drivers when I've carried out perfectly safe overtakes, to realise how many people have an unnecessary aversion to overtaking. If I had a pound for every time someone had suggested a method for putting vinegar on my chips after an overtake, I wouldn't be driving around in an 8 year-old car. And don't they know the bottle works the other way up?
This "overtakaphobia" seems to be a particularly English problem too. I've driven in France, Italy, and extensively in Scotland where I've found the locals far more inclined to assist you in overtaking by moving nearside or giving a helpful indicator when it's safe to go.
I'm of the opinion that this particular phobia stems from two sources - the unnecessarily over-pressed "speed kills" message, and the fact that no-one is ever taught how to overtake properly (unless they take further driver training, and unfortunately, that's only a very small percentage of drivers at the moment).
Now, I can't do much about the first point, other than to say that excessive speed is only a small factor in accident causes, particularly when compared with driver error, but I'm afraid I'm powerless to change the government's stance on speeding, so I can't help there.
What I can do, however, is give you a few pointers on how to overtake safely and efficiently, with maximum control and minimum fuss. So here goes...
The Following Position
"Oh no Reg - not that old chestnut again."
Bear with me - I know the following position is a much discussed topic, but it's a vital element in safe overtaking, and it's where the majority of overtakes start from. There are two main reasons for this - it's far enough back to give you a good view of the road ahead, and it's far enough forward to allow you to quickly move into the overtake if it's on.
If you sit two seconds behind the car in front (slightly more if it's a larger vehicle), then it won't be filling too much of your field of vision - you'll still have a reasonably good view of the road in front of that car. If you move your car sideways at the appropriate times, you can vastly improve your view of the road ahead, but the key is knowing when and where to move your car.
How many times have you seen drivers looking for an overtake by moving their head to the right to improve their view? In most cars, you can only really move your head by a maximum of about a foot, so the improvement in view by moving a foot to the right is fairly minuscule. It's much better practise to move the whole car, as the distance you can potentially move the car sideways is much greater and so, subsequently, is the improvement in your view.
So, where should you be moving to? That depends entirely on what the road is doing.
Lets start with a straight piece of road, as that's the easiest. Move your car towards the centre line whilst in your following position, and look into the distance. If it's safe to do so, you can then move your car across the centre-lines, over towards the offside of the road. This offside move is very alien to some people, but believe me, it's by far the best way to see if the road ahead is clear. The amount of sideways movement can vary from having your offside wheels on the white line, to straddling the white line, to moving completely over to the offside of the road, dependent on the available view. Don't get sucked into the old "right and wrong side of the road" stuff - unless white lines dictate otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable to use the full width of the road if it's safe to do so.
The most common mistake people make when moving offside for a look is this...
They look with their right foot.
To expand on that, people confuse the move offside with the start of an overtake, and, even if they know that they're just trying to improve their view, they accompany the offside move with a slight inadvertent squeeze on the accelerator. They look with their right foot. This is a problem if the overtake isn't on, because when they move back to the nearside, the inevitable result of looking with your right foot is that you close up your following position to less than 2 seconds. Do this several times, and without realising it, you can end up very intimately involved with the car in front, if you get my meaning.
So the sideways move should be just that - a sideways move for a look, and not accompanied with a forwards move.
On a left hand bend, the series of moves required to obtain the optimum view start with a move to the nearside to obtain a view of the bend down the left-hand side of the car in front. Once you've got that nearside view, it can be improved as you get closer to the corner, by moving the car offside. There's no prescriptive distance that you should move offside - just move enough to improve that view down the left-hand side of the car, without going so far that you end up blocking it.
I've just read that back, and it sounds complicated, so I'll try to simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move nearside and look nearside. As you get into the corner, move offside, but keep looking nearside.
There - that's better!
As you round the bend, you'll get a brief view of the road ahead as it straightens up, and if it appears clear, this view can then be confirmed with a move further offside, the outcome of which will finalise your decision as to whether to go or not.
For right-hand bends, the process is to initially move offside on the approach to the bend, and then, on entering the bend, to move as far nearside as it's safe to go. This move nearside should be accompanied with a slight closing of the following position to about 1 1/2 seconds (the only time I advocate getting closer than 2 seconds), and you should then obtain a good view down the offside of the car in front. As you round the bend, from this position, you'll obtain a good, early view of the road as the bend straightens, and if it's safe, you should be able to get out into the overtake nice and early - often whilst still negotiating the bend.
Again, that reads quite complicated, so I'll simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move offside and look offside, and then on entering the corner, move nearside, close up, and look offside.
Don't forget, though, that if the overtake isn't on from the right-hander, you should drop back to a 2-second following position.
So, that's how to move your car around from the following position to obtain a good view, but what else is there to consider?
Other considerations
This list could go on and on, and I'm in no doubt that I'll miss some things, but here goes...
Are there any junctions or entrances to the right? If there are, the car you're intending to overtake could possibly turn right, or something could emerge from the junction and come towards you. If you can get your overtake in well before you get to the junction, then fine, but if not, you should wait until you can see that nothing is going to emerge, and you're happy that the car in front isn't going to turn right.
Is there a faster moving vehicle behind that could overtake you? Organ-donors are notorious for this, as nothing's faster than their Tamajaki 900RSR is it? Your sideways movement looking for a view should be a good visual clue that you're looking for an overtake, but motorcyclists aren't usually too bothered about the complexities of overtaking - breath in and wind it on is the normal motorcyclist's overtaking technique, so us drivers have to compensate for them. A mirror-check is a vital part of the overall planning process for an overtake. Don't go if you're about to be overtaken yourself. And with that in mind...
Is the vehicle you're looking to overtake also looking to overtake? Do the movements of the vehicle suggest they're also looking for the opportunity to go? an un-trained driver will follow the next vehicle quite closely, and their decision to overtake will generally be made much later than a more advanced driver. They usually accompany this with an inability to check their mirrors before overtaking, which means that whilst you may have decided that it's safe to go, and started overtaking, their later decision making could mean that they move out and accelerate just as you're passing them, which isn't good.
Trust me - it's really not good.
What is the performance potential of your car? This may be an obvious one, but it's always something to consider. My plans for overtaking in my M3 differ considerably from my plans for overtaking in the MX-5. It's actually a good exercise to learn how to overtake in a slow car, as the planning required for overtaking is much more intense than if you drive a fast car.
Have I got somewhere to land? Landing space is essential, as you shouldn't be forcing other cars to slow down or alter their position just to allow you to overtake. If the car in front is a tailgater, but they're not actually overtaking, then your plan should always be to overtake both vehicles rather than to take one, and force in between them. If you're overtaking in a line of vehicles, it's much nicer to use acceleration sense to slot into your chosen gap than to over-accelerate and then come in under braking.
Is there a vehicle that you can't see which is currently out of view but travelling towards you? I use organ-donors as an example for this one too, as they're the fastestthingontheroad (TM). Imagine that there's a motorcyclist travelling at full chat towards you, but currently out of view. Can you complete your overtake before coming into conflict with them? If you can, then all well and good, but if you can't, then wait. This is another example of when a good imagination is important to an advanced driver.
Have you selected the correct gear? Gear selection is critical when overtaking. You need a gear which will give you the correct degree of acceleration when you start to go, but not one which is so low that you'll need an up-change halfway through the overtake. I prefer to have both my hands on the wheel whilst overtaking, thank you very much. That correct gear selection should also be considered when you're in the following position. The entry to corners should be accompanied by a change to a flexible gear in anticipation of an overtaking opportunity. If it turns out the overtake isn't on, then you should change back up again and wait for the next one.
Do I have an alternative plan? If things go badly wrong, what are you going to do? Can you brake and get back in behind the vehicle? Is there somewhere else you can go to avoid a collision? Did you put clean underpants on this morning?
As I said, this isn't an exhaustive list - take each overtake as it comes and consider every possible scenario as part of your planned approach.
Completing the overtake
In my mind, once you've weighed everything up and decided to go, that's it - the overtake is done and dusted, and mentally you should be moving on to the next hazard. Physically, you'll be accelerating and completing the overtake, but mentally you should be waaay ahead of that and well into the planning stage for your next manoeuvre, whether it be another overtake, a corner, a roundabout or any one of the other million things we have to deal with as drivers.
The overtake should be completed with a minimum of fuss, and should be started with a move offside, which should not be accompanied by any acceleration. This is very important, as you shouldn't be getting any closer to the vehicle in front than 2 seconds (or 1 1/2 on a right-hand bend). Once you're out, then you should accelerate to pass the vehicle.
You should aim to come back nearside leaving at least a 2 second gap between the overtaken vehicle and yourself. I find that the easiest way to get this right is to wait until you have a full view of the overtaken vehicle in your centre mirror before moving back to the nearside.
Of course, we know that information changes all the time, and once you're out on the overtake, you might decide that there is another one on. Mentally assess each overtake individually, taking account of all the points above, and if it's on, stay out and continue to overtake. My record was a memorable 18-vehicle overtake on a single-carriageway A road, carried out in perfect safety by one of my students.
Remain calm and level-headed when planning overtakes and never base any of your decisions on anger or aggression, or on the fact that you're late - this will affect your ability to make a rational decision and could introduce the one thing that you should always try to keep out of driving - an element of risk.
This has been by far the longest and most difficult post I've written so far. I apologise if I've gone on a bit, but as you can see, it's a very wide-ranging subject and I've tried not to miss anything out.
Although I'm sure I have done.
This doesn't have to be the case - there's no big mystery to overtaking, and when it's carried out correctly, it's no more dangerous than any other manoeuvre that we carry out whilst driving. For some reason, however, the general motoring public (bless 'em) seem to view overtaking as a potentially disastrous move only carried out by idiotic johnny-boy-racers. You only have to see the reactions I sometimes get from other drivers when I've carried out perfectly safe overtakes, to realise how many people have an unnecessary aversion to overtaking. If I had a pound for every time someone had suggested a method for putting vinegar on my chips after an overtake, I wouldn't be driving around in an 8 year-old car. And don't they know the bottle works the other way up?
This "overtakaphobia" seems to be a particularly English problem too. I've driven in France, Italy, and extensively in Scotland where I've found the locals far more inclined to assist you in overtaking by moving nearside or giving a helpful indicator when it's safe to go.
I'm of the opinion that this particular phobia stems from two sources - the unnecessarily over-pressed "speed kills" message, and the fact that no-one is ever taught how to overtake properly (unless they take further driver training, and unfortunately, that's only a very small percentage of drivers at the moment).
Now, I can't do much about the first point, other than to say that excessive speed is only a small factor in accident causes, particularly when compared with driver error, but I'm afraid I'm powerless to change the government's stance on speeding, so I can't help there.
What I can do, however, is give you a few pointers on how to overtake safely and efficiently, with maximum control and minimum fuss. So here goes...
The Following Position
"Oh no Reg - not that old chestnut again."
Bear with me - I know the following position is a much discussed topic, but it's a vital element in safe overtaking, and it's where the majority of overtakes start from. There are two main reasons for this - it's far enough back to give you a good view of the road ahead, and it's far enough forward to allow you to quickly move into the overtake if it's on.
If you sit two seconds behind the car in front (slightly more if it's a larger vehicle), then it won't be filling too much of your field of vision - you'll still have a reasonably good view of the road in front of that car. If you move your car sideways at the appropriate times, you can vastly improve your view of the road ahead, but the key is knowing when and where to move your car.
How many times have you seen drivers looking for an overtake by moving their head to the right to improve their view? In most cars, you can only really move your head by a maximum of about a foot, so the improvement in view by moving a foot to the right is fairly minuscule. It's much better practise to move the whole car, as the distance you can potentially move the car sideways is much greater and so, subsequently, is the improvement in your view.
So, where should you be moving to? That depends entirely on what the road is doing.
Lets start with a straight piece of road, as that's the easiest. Move your car towards the centre line whilst in your following position, and look into the distance. If it's safe to do so, you can then move your car across the centre-lines, over towards the offside of the road. This offside move is very alien to some people, but believe me, it's by far the best way to see if the road ahead is clear. The amount of sideways movement can vary from having your offside wheels on the white line, to straddling the white line, to moving completely over to the offside of the road, dependent on the available view. Don't get sucked into the old "right and wrong side of the road" stuff - unless white lines dictate otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable to use the full width of the road if it's safe to do so.
The most common mistake people make when moving offside for a look is this...
They look with their right foot.
To expand on that, people confuse the move offside with the start of an overtake, and, even if they know that they're just trying to improve their view, they accompany the offside move with a slight inadvertent squeeze on the accelerator. They look with their right foot. This is a problem if the overtake isn't on, because when they move back to the nearside, the inevitable result of looking with your right foot is that you close up your following position to less than 2 seconds. Do this several times, and without realising it, you can end up very intimately involved with the car in front, if you get my meaning.
So the sideways move should be just that - a sideways move for a look, and not accompanied with a forwards move.
On a left hand bend, the series of moves required to obtain the optimum view start with a move to the nearside to obtain a view of the bend down the left-hand side of the car in front. Once you've got that nearside view, it can be improved as you get closer to the corner, by moving the car offside. There's no prescriptive distance that you should move offside - just move enough to improve that view down the left-hand side of the car, without going so far that you end up blocking it.
I've just read that back, and it sounds complicated, so I'll try to simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move nearside and look nearside. As you get into the corner, move offside, but keep looking nearside.
There - that's better!
As you round the bend, you'll get a brief view of the road ahead as it straightens up, and if it appears clear, this view can then be confirmed with a move further offside, the outcome of which will finalise your decision as to whether to go or not.
For right-hand bends, the process is to initially move offside on the approach to the bend, and then, on entering the bend, to move as far nearside as it's safe to go. This move nearside should be accompanied with a slight closing of the following position to about 1 1/2 seconds (the only time I advocate getting closer than 2 seconds), and you should then obtain a good view down the offside of the car in front. As you round the bend, from this position, you'll obtain a good, early view of the road as the bend straightens, and if it's safe, you should be able to get out into the overtake nice and early - often whilst still negotiating the bend.
Again, that reads quite complicated, so I'll simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move offside and look offside, and then on entering the corner, move nearside, close up, and look offside.
Don't forget, though, that if the overtake isn't on from the right-hander, you should drop back to a 2-second following position.
So, that's how to move your car around from the following position to obtain a good view, but what else is there to consider?
Other considerations
This list could go on and on, and I'm in no doubt that I'll miss some things, but here goes...
Are there any junctions or entrances to the right? If there are, the car you're intending to overtake could possibly turn right, or something could emerge from the junction and come towards you. If you can get your overtake in well before you get to the junction, then fine, but if not, you should wait until you can see that nothing is going to emerge, and you're happy that the car in front isn't going to turn right.
Is there a faster moving vehicle behind that could overtake you? Organ-donors are notorious for this, as nothing's faster than their Tamajaki 900RSR is it? Your sideways movement looking for a view should be a good visual clue that you're looking for an overtake, but motorcyclists aren't usually too bothered about the complexities of overtaking - breath in and wind it on is the normal motorcyclist's overtaking technique, so us drivers have to compensate for them. A mirror-check is a vital part of the overall planning process for an overtake. Don't go if you're about to be overtaken yourself. And with that in mind...
Is the vehicle you're looking to overtake also looking to overtake? Do the movements of the vehicle suggest they're also looking for the opportunity to go? an un-trained driver will follow the next vehicle quite closely, and their decision to overtake will generally be made much later than a more advanced driver. They usually accompany this with an inability to check their mirrors before overtaking, which means that whilst you may have decided that it's safe to go, and started overtaking, their later decision making could mean that they move out and accelerate just as you're passing them, which isn't good.
Trust me - it's really not good.
What is the performance potential of your car? This may be an obvious one, but it's always something to consider. My plans for overtaking in my M3 differ considerably from my plans for overtaking in the MX-5. It's actually a good exercise to learn how to overtake in a slow car, as the planning required for overtaking is much more intense than if you drive a fast car.
Have I got somewhere to land? Landing space is essential, as you shouldn't be forcing other cars to slow down or alter their position just to allow you to overtake. If the car in front is a tailgater, but they're not actually overtaking, then your plan should always be to overtake both vehicles rather than to take one, and force in between them. If you're overtaking in a line of vehicles, it's much nicer to use acceleration sense to slot into your chosen gap than to over-accelerate and then come in under braking.
Is there a vehicle that you can't see which is currently out of view but travelling towards you? I use organ-donors as an example for this one too, as they're the fastestthingontheroad (TM). Imagine that there's a motorcyclist travelling at full chat towards you, but currently out of view. Can you complete your overtake before coming into conflict with them? If you can, then all well and good, but if you can't, then wait. This is another example of when a good imagination is important to an advanced driver.
Have you selected the correct gear? Gear selection is critical when overtaking. You need a gear which will give you the correct degree of acceleration when you start to go, but not one which is so low that you'll need an up-change halfway through the overtake. I prefer to have both my hands on the wheel whilst overtaking, thank you very much. That correct gear selection should also be considered when you're in the following position. The entry to corners should be accompanied by a change to a flexible gear in anticipation of an overtaking opportunity. If it turns out the overtake isn't on, then you should change back up again and wait for the next one.
Do I have an alternative plan? If things go badly wrong, what are you going to do? Can you brake and get back in behind the vehicle? Is there somewhere else you can go to avoid a collision? Did you put clean underpants on this morning?
As I said, this isn't an exhaustive list - take each overtake as it comes and consider every possible scenario as part of your planned approach.
Completing the overtake
In my mind, once you've weighed everything up and decided to go, that's it - the overtake is done and dusted, and mentally you should be moving on to the next hazard. Physically, you'll be accelerating and completing the overtake, but mentally you should be waaay ahead of that and well into the planning stage for your next manoeuvre, whether it be another overtake, a corner, a roundabout or any one of the other million things we have to deal with as drivers.
The overtake should be completed with a minimum of fuss, and should be started with a move offside, which should not be accompanied by any acceleration. This is very important, as you shouldn't be getting any closer to the vehicle in front than 2 seconds (or 1 1/2 on a right-hand bend). Once you're out, then you should accelerate to pass the vehicle.
You should aim to come back nearside leaving at least a 2 second gap between the overtaken vehicle and yourself. I find that the easiest way to get this right is to wait until you have a full view of the overtaken vehicle in your centre mirror before moving back to the nearside.
Of course, we know that information changes all the time, and once you're out on the overtake, you might decide that there is another one on. Mentally assess each overtake individually, taking account of all the points above, and if it's on, stay out and continue to overtake. My record was a memorable 18-vehicle overtake on a single-carriageway A road, carried out in perfect safety by one of my students.
Remain calm and level-headed when planning overtakes and never base any of your decisions on anger or aggression, or on the fact that you're late - this will affect your ability to make a rational decision and could introduce the one thing that you should always try to keep out of driving - an element of risk.
This has been by far the longest and most difficult post I've written so far. I apologise if I've gone on a bit, but as you can see, it's a very wide-ranging subject and I've tried not to miss anything out.
Although I'm sure I have done.
Edited by R_U_LOCAL on Friday 9th March 19:03
Reg, nice description...I'll have to go and think about the various moves to get visibility though. The thing that always strikes me as a hard thing to describe/teach/learn is how to judge the distance needed to complete the overtake safely.
Any thoughts?
Bert
PS I'll actually have to reject the otherwise good description on the basis that it doesn't cover any of the possibilities regarding correct indication in overtaking!
Any thoughts?
Bert
PS I'll actually have to reject the otherwise good description on the basis that it doesn't cover any of the possibilities regarding correct indication in overtaking!
bertbert said:
Reg, nice description...I'll have to go and think about the various moves to get visibility though. The thing that always strikes me as a hard thing to describe/teach/learn is how to judge the distance needed to complete the overtake safely.
Any thoughts?
Bert
PS I'll actually have to reject the otherwise good description on the basis that it doesn't cover any of the possibilities regarding correct indication in overtaking!
Any thoughts?
Bert
PS I'll actually have to reject the otherwise good description on the basis that it doesn't cover any of the possibilities regarding correct indication in overtaking!
I've left the signalling aspect out of my post - I thought it'd create less friction if I just left that up to the individual! 
As for your first question, which distance do you mean?
bertbert said:
the fundamental one of how far ahead the road needs to be clear before you can commit to the overtake.
Bert
Bert
It's mainly dependent on how fast your car is. I'm not going to commit myself to any set distances - as with a lot of aspects of driving, that distance can be an ever-changing thing, dependent on how large a vehicle you're overtaking, how good the road surface is, what the weather conditions are, etc, etc.
But the biggest deciding factor is definitely the performance of your car.
I'll leave the judgement of the distance up to you.
My dad (an advanced driver himself) took me out and actually taught me how to overtake not long after I passed my test. I'm deeply indebted to him for that. It's such a shame that so few drivers are taught this skill and how many young drivers come a cropper from learning by trial and error. 
Edited by JonRB on Friday 9th March 19:54
TripleS said:
The required distance is lessened by the use of some momentum, but that seems to be outside the scope of the syllabus.
Hmmm, yes. The "accelerate at the rear of the car in front and swerve out at the last second if it is clear or slam on the anchors if it's not". We've all been there as young drivers in underpowered cars. Now as a middle-aged driver in an over-powered car I can observe that it's bloody dangerous and if you need that technique to complete the overtake then it is simply not on and you are unnecessarily putting yourself and other road users in danger.
TripleS said:
The required distance is lessened by the use of some momentum, but that seems to be outside the scope of the syllabus. 
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Why is that outside the sillybus? There are two modes of overtaking described in Roadcraft IIRC. The following mode and the approaching mode. Cant remember the exact terminology and cant look it up as someone Chez Bert has twoc'ed my copy!
Bert
R_U_LOCAL said:
bertbert said:
the fundamental one of how far ahead the road needs to be clear before you can commit to the overtake.
Bert
Bert
It's mainly dependent on how fast your car is. I'm not going to commit myself to any set distances - as with a lot of aspects of driving, that distance can be an ever-changing thing, dependent on how large a vehicle you're overtaking, how good the road surface is, what the weather conditions are, etc, etc.
But the biggest deciding factor is definitely the performance of your car.
I'll leave the judgement of the distance up to you.
Isn't that the other reason why the art is dark? There isn't a model to use to teach the skill of judging the available distance to be adequate or not.
Bert
bertbert said:
TripleS said:
The required distance is lessened by the use of some momentum, but that seems to be outside the scope of the syllabus.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Why is that outside the sillybus? There are two modes of overtaking described in Roadcraft IIRC. The following mode and the approaching mode. Cant remember the exact terminology and cant look it up as someone Chez Bert has twoc'ed my copy!
Bert
I call them "Classic" & "Momentum", but I think TripleS is talking about speed limit enforcement policy curtailing the syllabus somewhat.
bertbert said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
bertbert said:
the fundamental one of how far ahead the road needs to be clear before you can commit to the overtake.
Bert
Bert
It's mainly dependent on how fast your car is. I'm not going to commit myself to any set distances - as with a lot of aspects of driving, that distance can be an ever-changing thing, dependent on how large a vehicle you're overtaking, how good the road surface is, what the weather conditions are, etc, etc.
But the biggest deciding factor is definitely the performance of your car.
I'll leave the judgement of the distance up to you.
Isn't that the other reason why the art is dark? There isn't a model to use to teach the skill of judging the available distance to be adequate or not.
Bert
Well if the vehicle towards is visibile it is a matter of sound assessment/judgement of speed & distance by you. Factoring in your speed, that of your intended overtake, the distance required to pass your intended overtake with the performance advantage available, the speed & distance of the visible one towards (or one that may pop out to overtake it) etc.
A common error is people not actually looking at what the one towards is & what speed it is doing. The just look how far away it is.
Greatest danger comes from an overtake towards a bend (or loss of vision), because at least where you can see the vehicle you can make an assessment of it's speed & distance. Where you can't see it, you must assess how fast it could potentially appear from that bend or loss of vision & plan accordingly for worst case. As a general rule of thumb (& where the average driver falls foul) you mustn't assume you've got up to the bend or loss of vision to complete the overtake, because you are not factoring in the one towards.
If the vehicle towards could achieve a maximum speed similar to the speed you are doing, then you must be able to complete the overtake & regain nearside position within half the road space you can see. If it could be moving substantially quicker than you, then you have to do it in substantially less than that distance. If the bend you are approaching is exceptionally tight & it would have to be moving much slower than you, then you may be able to use slightly more than half the space visible.
Ask yourself in the planning process "What if an R1 (insert any other fast bike) appeared going as fast as possible just after I've commited ?" If that's no problem then the overtake isn't, if it could potentially be, then it isn't on. Don't use the speed limit itself as a guide, because people speed.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 9th March 21:50
Another top post Mr Local
I did a lovely overtake just the other week. I was out for a mid morning drive coming out of Hayfield, heading towards Chinley. Single carriageway, first car in front of me was despatched with ease into the 50mph zone. The next lot were a little trickier. 1 car, 1 van and a flat bed lorry, all bunched up quite close. I could see the road ahead was nice and clear, no turnings off on the right. I put my headlights on, gave a quick short blow on my horn, and began the overtake. I know I exceeded the 50 limit, but only by 10 mph, and without braking, was back down to 53 after the manouver. The sense of satisfaction I got from the safe overtake was great, and set me up to enjoy the rest of the drive, over to edale, strines and eventually holme moss
I did a lovely overtake just the other week. I was out for a mid morning drive coming out of Hayfield, heading towards Chinley. Single carriageway, first car in front of me was despatched with ease into the 50mph zone. The next lot were a little trickier. 1 car, 1 van and a flat bed lorry, all bunched up quite close. I could see the road ahead was nice and clear, no turnings off on the right. I put my headlights on, gave a quick short blow on my horn, and began the overtake. I know I exceeded the 50 limit, but only by 10 mph, and without braking, was back down to 53 after the manouver. The sense of satisfaction I got from the safe overtake was great, and set me up to enjoy the rest of the drive, over to edale, strines and eventually holme moss
The other method you're describing could possibly be what I call a "rolling overtake".
This is performed in a situation where you have "plus speed" on the vehicle you're planning to overtake, and the overtake is carried out in one move, without first settling into a following position.
These don't come up very often, and you have to be very sure of your observations and your plan before committing yourself to one, but when performed correctly, a rolling overtake can be a very satisfying move.
Vanhosen, you have a similar attitude towards overtaking planning to me - I much prefer to have an on-coming vehicle in sight when I'm looking for an overtake, as you can assess your closing speed against something real, rather than trying to assess against something which may or may not come into view at an unspecified speed.
This method of planning is somewhat arse-about-face to less experienced drivers, who prefer, on the whole, to have no oncoming vehicles in view before overtaking.
This is performed in a situation where you have "plus speed" on the vehicle you're planning to overtake, and the overtake is carried out in one move, without first settling into a following position.
These don't come up very often, and you have to be very sure of your observations and your plan before committing yourself to one, but when performed correctly, a rolling overtake can be a very satisfying move.
Vanhosen, you have a similar attitude towards overtaking planning to me - I much prefer to have an on-coming vehicle in sight when I'm looking for an overtake, as you can assess your closing speed against something real, rather than trying to assess against something which may or may not come into view at an unspecified speed.
This method of planning is somewhat arse-about-face to less experienced drivers, who prefer, on the whole, to have no oncoming vehicles in view before overtaking.
I'm glad to hear a really experienced driver talking about having the overtaken vehilce visible in both the nearside and center mirror before pulling back in, as that's a rule I devised for myself after a year or two of driving.
Regarding the one oncoming scenario - I feel you just have to look at the oncoming vehicle for long enough to accurately judge its speed. If you really can't make your mind up then the overtakes not on (and you've probably wasted the opportunity by looking at it for too long).
My most memorable advanced driving manoeuver to date is (with exemption from speed limits I hasten to add) an overtake on a single carriageway with vanishing point visibility and 200Mph closing speed with the one towards. I gained my overtaking competancy with that momentum overtake, but it took significant kahunas to stay on the throttle and not the go for the brakes!
Regarding the one oncoming scenario - I feel you just have to look at the oncoming vehicle for long enough to accurately judge its speed. If you really can't make your mind up then the overtakes not on (and you've probably wasted the opportunity by looking at it for too long).
My most memorable advanced driving manoeuver to date is (with exemption from speed limits I hasten to add) an overtake on a single carriageway with vanishing point visibility and 200Mph closing speed with the one towards. I gained my overtaking competancy with that momentum overtake, but it took significant kahunas to stay on the throttle and not the go for the brakes!
r_u_local said:
but motorcyclists aren't usually too bothered about the complexities of overtaking - breath in and wind it on is the normal motorcyclist's overtaking technique, so us drivers have to compensate for them
In general a useful post but why denegrate bikers? Obviously there are several who overtake and ride like idiots but on the whole I would suggest the vast majority are far more aware of their surroundings and spacings than the majority of car drivers. I did notice that throughout youre post you failed to make any mention of the necessity of checking your blind spot for our 2 wheeled friends, after all they dont have the benefit of 2 tonnes of metal to protect them from badly driven cars. I personally dont ride a bike but hope to one day and the IAMS bike division is generally recognised as being a far more informed group of road users than their car equivalents.
JonRB said:
TripleS said:
The required distance is lessened by the use of some momentum, but that seems to be outside the scope of the syllabus.
Hmmm, yes. The "accelerate at the rear of the car in front and swerve out at the last second if it is clear or slam on the anchors if it's not". We've all been there as young drivers in underpowered cars. Now as a middle-aged driver in an over-powered car I can observe that it's bloody dangerous and if you need that technique to complete the overtake then it is simply not on and you are unnecessarily putting yourself and other road users in danger.
No, please reconsider that. You have given a very distorted version of what I'm referring to.
The technique does need to be used carefully, but it is legitimate and can be a useful aid. I'm not talking about the more extreme 'banana' overtakes, but using some momentum can be perfectly safe if you make sure it is combined with getting optimum vision, not swerving out at the last second!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
vonhosen said:
bertbert said:
TripleS said:
The required distance is lessened by the use of some momentum, but that seems to be outside the scope of the syllabus.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Why is that outside the sillybus? There are two modes of overtaking described in Roadcraft IIRC. The following mode and the approaching mode. Cant remember the exact terminology and cant look it up as someone Chez Bert has twoc'ed my copy!
Bert
I call them "Classic" & "Momentum", but I think TripleS is talking about speed limit enforcement policy curtailing the syllabus somewhat.
No, sorry. I wasn't thinking about speed limitations at all. It was just that Reg only covered the classic overtake, and the momentum overtake is apparently, at least for the moment, outside his syllabus. Perhaps he will be happy to talk to us about that one separately.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
vonhosen said:
bertbert said:
TripleS said:
The required distance is lessened by the use of some momentum, but that seems to be outside the scope of the syllabus.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Why is that outside the sillybus? There are two modes of overtaking described in Roadcraft IIRC. The following mode and the approaching mode. Cant remember the exact terminology and cant look it up as someone Chez Bert has twoc'ed my copy!
Bert
I call them "Classic" & "Momentum", but I think TripleS is talking about speed limit enforcement policy curtailing the syllabus somewhat.
No, sorry. I wasn't thinking about speed limitations at all. It was just that Reg only covered the classic overtake, and the momentum overtake is apparently, at least for the moment, outside his syllabus. Perhaps he will be happy to talk to us about that one separately.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
No, I'll apologise, as I got the wrong end of the stick
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff