Too many points to be an Advanced Driver
Discussion
I am in two minds about this and wondered if anyone else had any views.
I am an IAM Qualified Observer and have just had my latest Associate refused to be tested for having 9 points on his licence.
In our group we have 2 classroom sessions, at the first of these the Group Training Officer helps the Associates fill in their test paperwork. At this my associate apparently told the training officer his licence had 3 points on it when in actual fact it had 9 (3x SP30), he misunderstood the question and told them how many convictions he had rather than how many points (allegedly
).
He is a good competent driver and didn't need much work at all to get to the IAM test level, of a suggested 10 week syllabus we only took 6 (one of which was my demo drive so really only 5 weeks of him driving). I passed him on to a Senior Observer who did his first check test, he passed with flying colours with only one point to work on (more manual use of the auto box on his Merc ML). The Group Training Officer then did a full mock test with him which again he passed with flying colours meaning he was put in for his IAM test proper.
He turned up for his test yesterday with the IAM Examiner (a serving Police Driving Examiner), the first thing the examiner did was a licence check, found he had 9 points and rang IAM HQ for guidance who said that because he had over 8 points he was ineligible to take the test.
I can see the virtue in keeping the IAM solely for the best drivers and in their eyes that means the ones who drive within the speed limits (a debate for another time).
At the same time my associate realised there was room for improvement, now drives within speed limits, and has been brought up to the standard required to pass his IAM test. Shouldn't we entertain people who wish to improve their driving?
Your views would be appreciated
I am an IAM Qualified Observer and have just had my latest Associate refused to be tested for having 9 points on his licence.
In our group we have 2 classroom sessions, at the first of these the Group Training Officer helps the Associates fill in their test paperwork. At this my associate apparently told the training officer his licence had 3 points on it when in actual fact it had 9 (3x SP30), he misunderstood the question and told them how many convictions he had rather than how many points (allegedly
). He is a good competent driver and didn't need much work at all to get to the IAM test level, of a suggested 10 week syllabus we only took 6 (one of which was my demo drive so really only 5 weeks of him driving). I passed him on to a Senior Observer who did his first check test, he passed with flying colours with only one point to work on (more manual use of the auto box on his Merc ML). The Group Training Officer then did a full mock test with him which again he passed with flying colours meaning he was put in for his IAM test proper.
He turned up for his test yesterday with the IAM Examiner (a serving Police Driving Examiner), the first thing the examiner did was a licence check, found he had 9 points and rang IAM HQ for guidance who said that because he had over 8 points he was ineligible to take the test.
I can see the virtue in keeping the IAM solely for the best drivers and in their eyes that means the ones who drive within the speed limits (a debate for another time).
At the same time my associate realised there was room for improvement, now drives within speed limits, and has been brought up to the standard required to pass his IAM test. Shouldn't we entertain people who wish to improve their driving?
Your views would be appreciated
It's not unique.
Police drivers in my force can't drive Police vehicles at all with 7+ points on their DSA licence.
They can't have any further training or apply for a job that requires driving in the application criteria if they have 7+ points on their Police driving record (even if they have no points on their DSA licence.)
With regards to your associate, it sounds as if he has improved his driving (the most important thing) he is just not allowed to take a test.
Police drivers in my force can't drive Police vehicles at all with 7+ points on their DSA licence.
They can't have any further training or apply for a job that requires driving in the application criteria if they have 7+ points on their Police driving record (even if they have no points on their DSA licence.)
With regards to your associate, it sounds as if he has improved his driving (the most important thing) he is just not allowed to take a test.
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 21st August 19:14
markmullen said:
At the same time my associate realised there was room for improvement, now drives within speed limits, and has been brought up to the standard required to pass his IAM test. Shouldn't we entertain people who wish to improve their driving?
He's improved - he just can't get a certificate and a badge.There's a thread about this on the IAM forum. A reason is that a person with 9 points is one offence away from a ban, and then it could bring the IAM into a bad light.
"A reason is that a person with 9 points is one offence away from a ban, and then it could bring the IAM into a bad light"
Yes, But, No, But...
As an Observer, I argued years ago against the 6 point limit...I thought that these are the people we should encourage.
A Trafpol told me I should think about the waiting list for the punters that do not have six - or nine - points on their tickets - "Why train a punter who might be off the road for a year when you can help someone driving tomorrow?"
IAM in a bad light? - Yes - I guess we will be until an alternative is found...answers on a postcard...
BOF.
Yes, But, No, But...
As an Observer, I argued years ago against the 6 point limit...I thought that these are the people we should encourage.
A Trafpol told me I should think about the waiting list for the punters that do not have six - or nine - points on their tickets - "Why train a punter who might be off the road for a year when you can help someone driving tomorrow?"
IAM in a bad light? - Yes - I guess we will be until an alternative is found...answers on a postcard...
BOF.
You could get a ban from zero points on your licence if you go fast enough!
I think people should be able to take the test to prove they have the skills required but maybe shouldn't be allowed membership.
Didn't Prince Michael of Kent keep getting lots of points when he was President of the IAM?
I think people should be able to take the test to prove they have the skills required but maybe shouldn't be allowed membership.
Didn't Prince Michael of Kent keep getting lots of points when he was President of the IAM?
shirely the point of the IAM is for members to improve their skills. someone with convictions obviously needs to improve more (for the sake of their licence if not safety - i dont believe speeding points = unsafe normally) so they are the people who need extra encuragement.
constructive steps like going for IAM tests must be a sign they are aware they need to change & are trying to do so. i think its daft that the very people who may benefit most are excluded.
constructive steps like going for IAM tests must be a sign they are aware they need to change & are trying to do so. i think its daft that the very people who may benefit most are excluded.
"Didn't Prince Michael of Kent keep getting lots of points when he was President of the IAM?"
Not sure about the lots of points - he got done, did not try to use his connections ( He did not play for Man U or Chelsea) and resigned.
After his many years of supporting safer driving...good enough for me.
BOF
Not sure about the lots of points - he got done, did not try to use his connections ( He did not play for Man U or Chelsea) and resigned.
After his many years of supporting safer driving...good enough for me.
BOF
Edited by BOF on Tuesday 21st August 21:15
Hi,
I understand that neither RoSPA nor DIAmond require you to have under 9 points on your license to take their advanced tests. Your Associate could use the hard-earnt learning to take a RoSPA (or DIAmond) test and still become "an advanced driver". The IAM's loss could be RoSPA's gain ...
What happens of an existing IAM Member clocks up 9 points? Does the IAM chuck them out?!
I understand that neither RoSPA nor DIAmond require you to have under 9 points on your license to take their advanced tests. Your Associate could use the hard-earnt learning to take a RoSPA (or DIAmond) test and still become "an advanced driver". The IAM's loss could be RoSPA's gain ...
markmullen said:
At the same time my associate realised there was room for improvement, now drives within speed limits, and has been brought up to the standard required to pass his IAM test. Shouldn't we entertain people who wish to improve their driving?
Well, this seems a great shame. Your Associate realised the need to improve and did so.What happens of an existing IAM Member clocks up 9 points? Does the IAM chuck them out?!
markmullen said:
At the same time my associate realised there was room for improvement, now drives within speed limits, and has been brought up to the standard required to pass his IAM test. Shouldn't we entertain people who wish to improve their driving?
Surely this should be the root philosophy behind the IAM?markmullen said:
He turned up for his test yesterday with the IAM Examiner (a serving Police Driving Examiner), the first thing the examiner did was a licence check, found he had 9 points and rang IAM HQ for guidance who said that because he had over 8 points he was ineligible to take the test.
So it does not matter that someone has realised their driving needs improving and has actively sought further education to do that? To my mind that hints at an organisation that is steeped in beauracracy and has lost it's focus.vonhosen said:
It's not unique.
Police drivers in my force can't drive Police vehicles at all with 7+ points on their DSA licence.
They can't have any further training or apply for a job that requires driving in the application criteria if they have 7+ points on their Police driving record (even if they have no points on their DSA licence..
Probably the real reason why so few police officers actually end up with points. Police drivers in my force can't drive Police vehicles at all with 7+ points on their DSA licence.
They can't have any further training or apply for a job that requires driving in the application criteria if they have 7+ points on their Police driving record (even if they have no points on their DSA licence..
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 21st August 19:14
Whats the conviction rate for officers caught speeding??? Most FOI requests have proven it to be well less than 5%!!!!
Such a shame really, we might have more BiB on the beat!!!!
EcosseOz said:
vonhosen said:
It's not unique.
Police drivers in my force can't drive Police vehicles at all with 7+ points on their DSA licence.
They can't have any further training or apply for a job that requires driving in the application criteria if they have 7+ points on their Police driving record (even if they have no points on their DSA licence..
Probably the real reason why so few police officers actually end up with points. Police drivers in my force can't drive Police vehicles at all with 7+ points on their DSA licence.
They can't have any further training or apply for a job that requires driving in the application criteria if they have 7+ points on their Police driving record (even if they have no points on their DSA licence..
Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 21st August 19:14
Whats the conviction rate for officers caught speeding??? Most FOI requests have proven it to be well less than 5%!!!!
Such a shame really, we might have more BiB on the beat!!!!
I doubt if the rates you are quoting are conviction rates (number prosecuted v number convicted).
Most aren't prosecuted because they aren't speeding, because when you are using a legally held exemption there is no offence of speeding as you are not bound by the limits.
The number of camera activations versus the number of prosecutions just does more to reveal that officers only tend to pass the camera above the limit when they are using a legally held exemption.
Hope that clears that up for you.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 23 August 00:44
ipsg.glf said:
Another example of why the IAM is completely irrelevant. They only seek to protect their market share.
How does this help them protect their market share then ?Does getting rid of the IAM help or hinder the cause of higher standards of driving ?
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 23 August 12:41
vonhosen said:
ipsg.glf said:
Another example of why the IAM is completely irrelevant. They only seek to protect their market share.
How does this help them protect their market share then ?Does getting rid of the IAM help or hinder the cause of higher standards of driving ?
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 23 August 12:41
Yes I know, not all IAM members are like that by any means, and all credit to them.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Edited by TripleS on Thursday 23 August 16:57
I passed the IAM test several years ago.
My examiner was the senior guy for the South East. Can't remember his name now, but he was ex-police and well known in IAM as being one of their most experienced chaps.
I distinctly remember him telling me that it's acceptable to do a "good 60" or a "good 70" when conditions are right and you've assessed the situation is safe to do so. That meant (according to him) 70-ish in a delimited or 80-ish on the motorway. The important thing was to make good progress and not hold up traffic.
I held the IAM qualification for a while then they wouldn't renew my membership because by then I'd built up a few speeding points on my licence. Maybe the examiner's attitudes and the rule have changed these days, but the dual standards which applied then made me wonder what the point was in the IAM. My insurance wasn't any cheaper because the IAM approved insurers were much more expensive than others, so once the IAM discount was applied, they were still more expensive than most.
If someone wants to become a safer driver, they will seek out ways to learn and then apply what they've learnt. It really didn't matter to me that I wasn't allowed to be in their 'club' any more. I had learnt a few things from the experience and I'll carry on learning from other people and other experiences.
And I don't know if it's the same now, but the IAM magazine was a bit embarressing at times. Some of those reader's letters were straight out of www.reportbaddrivers.com
My examiner was the senior guy for the South East. Can't remember his name now, but he was ex-police and well known in IAM as being one of their most experienced chaps.
I distinctly remember him telling me that it's acceptable to do a "good 60" or a "good 70" when conditions are right and you've assessed the situation is safe to do so. That meant (according to him) 70-ish in a delimited or 80-ish on the motorway. The important thing was to make good progress and not hold up traffic.
I held the IAM qualification for a while then they wouldn't renew my membership because by then I'd built up a few speeding points on my licence. Maybe the examiner's attitudes and the rule have changed these days, but the dual standards which applied then made me wonder what the point was in the IAM. My insurance wasn't any cheaper because the IAM approved insurers were much more expensive than others, so once the IAM discount was applied, they were still more expensive than most.
If someone wants to become a safer driver, they will seek out ways to learn and then apply what they've learnt. It really didn't matter to me that I wasn't allowed to be in their 'club' any more. I had learnt a few things from the experience and I'll carry on learning from other people and other experiences.
And I don't know if it's the same now, but the IAM magazine was a bit embarressing at times. Some of those reader's letters were straight out of www.reportbaddrivers.com
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