Too many points to be an Advanced Driver

[X8 Saggy]

Hi,

sorry if this is stupid question.
what does IAM stand for?
is this run by the police?
is it only for the police?

thanks in advance?

steve

[markmullen]

TripleS said:

With regard to steering, some people, as I'm sure you know, get quite anal about the handling of the steering wheel, and this is something I'm quite sensitive about, especially after my encounter with one particular IAM observer. On my first (and with him, only) observed drive he made a great fuss because I didn't hold the steering wheel in a way that he deemed satisfactory -

There has been many many posts about hand position, the IAM has to have a system it can teach to associates, the hand position it uses as part of this is the best for the majority of situations, as such it is the best one to teach as part of a syllabus which has to be reasonably concise.

TripleS said:

despite the fact that I had already been driving and getting pretty good results for 48 years!

If you asked 100 members of the public whether they were a good driver or not I would suggest more than 90 of them would say they are above average. How do you measure your results? By not having accidents? By not amassing penalty points? I have been out with many many (probably thousands) of different drivers through my work, most of them were more or less safe, most didn't have points (according to their driving licences). Did it make them good drivers? No.

If you are unable or unwilling to accept criticism of your driving style, or unable to adapt to a different style and system of driving (which, incidentally is good enough for the police and is indeed based around Roadcraft, The Police Driver's Manual) why bother wasting your £85 and joining the IAM?

TripleS said:

As far as I was concerned he was about the worst possible advert for the IAM, and not the sort of chap I can work with at any price. I can't quite remember his name now - Ian Morris/Riley/Wolseley - or something like that; anyhow I expect Mark M will know him, just in case anybody wishes to know who to steer clear of.

And is it very professional to slag off this chap on a forum he more than likely is not a member of? As such he is unable to put his point of view forward. Remember, he, like all Observers nationwide do, gave his time up for free to try and help you. Our observers (for readers not aware of this saga TripleS joined the IAM through the same local group I passed my test with and am a Qualified Observer for) are a mixture of Qualified Observers, who have passed the IAM Qualified Observer practical and written tests, and Group Observers who have been Observers since before the QO test came into place. We have great success in our group and have only had single figures of failures. Some personalities will not get along together and I suggest this is what happened with you and him.

Edited by markmullen on Sunday 26th August 22:24

[markmullen]

X8 Saggy said:

Hi,

sorry if this is stupid question.
what does IAM stand for?
is this run by the police?
is it only for the police?

thanks in advance?

steve

Not a stupid question at all.

To answer your questions in order:

The IAM is the Institute of Advanced Motorists.

Not run by the police per-se however some of our members are police officers and police officers with the Police Advanced Driver qualification are eligible for membership without having to sit the test. Also our examiners are usually serving Police Driving Examiners or Trainers.

It is for the public rather than the police, they have their own driving course although ours is based upon Roadcraft, the Police Drivers Manual and so there is a lot of crossover between the courses (my brother was sitting his Police Advanced (previously Class 1) test as I was doing my IAM Advanced test, the syllabuses were very similar although the IAM doesn't get to do the exciting high speed and blue light bits ).

The website is http://www.iam.org.uk/ and has some more information, please feel free to mail me through my profile if you want to talk to a real person about it and there are plenty of us on here who will happily help.

[X8 Saggy]

many thanks,

as i am wanting to take these courses,
and the ride drive courses .

I am guessing if i go to my local police station they could give me a local number or address
(west sussex)

would i take course in my car, or trainers car?

Edited by X8 Saggy on Sunday 26th August 22:58

[markmullen]

For Sussex groups have a look on here:
http://www.iam.org.uk/iamgroups/groupdirectory/sou...

[X8 Saggy]

cheers, thanks for fast responce.

[markmullen]

No probs, to answer your other question, you do the course in your own car, not only does this enable the Observer (a chap like myself and many others on here who show you and teach you how to pass your test) to do so for free but it also puts you at ease as it is the vehicle you're most used to.

[X8 Saggy]

better get my petrol gauge fixed then
thanks again.
free?
you must charge?

Edited by X8 Saggy on Sunday 26th August 23:09

[markmullen]

The IAM charges £85 for the whole course, that includes a book detailing the system that we use, as many observed runs out with an observer as you need (the syllabus is nominally 10 weeks, I took 4, my dad 6, my last associate 5, it depends on your experience and skill level now) and the test fee (you sit a test with a police driving examiner at the end, usually about 1 and a half hours). You also get your first year's membership of the IAM (£18 annually IIRC).

We don't get paid ourselves, we put in our time for free, I find observing improves my own driving and also the more numpties we convert into better drivers the easier all our jobs will be.

[X8 Saggy]

wow,
very impressive.
although i`m not a Numpty
joking.

your dedication is admirable

[TripleS]

markmullen said:

TripleS said:

With regard to steering, some people, as I'm sure you know, get quite anal about the handling of the steering wheel, and this is something I'm quite sensitive about, especially after my encounter with one particular IAM observer. On my first (and with him, only) observed drive he made a great fuss because I didn't hold the steering wheel in a way that he deemed satisfactory -

There has been many many posts about hand position, the IAM has to have a system it can teach to associates, the hand position it uses as part of this is the best for the majority of situations, as such it is the best one to teach as part of a syllabus which has to be reasonably concise.

TripleS said:

despite the fact that I had already been driving and getting pretty good results for 48 years!

If you asked 100 members of the public whether they were a good driver or not I would suggest more than 90 of them would say they are above average. How do you measure your results? By not having accidents? By not amassing penalty points? I have been out with many many (probably thousands) of different drivers through my work, most of them were more or less safe, most didn't have points (according to their driving licences). Did it make them good drivers? No.

If you are unable or unwilling to accept criticism of your driving style, or unable to adapt to a different style and system of driving (which, incidentally is good enough for the police and is indeed based around Roadcraft, The Police Driver's Manual) why bother wasting your £85 and joining the IAM?

TripleS said:

As far as I was concerned he was about the worst possible advert for the IAM, and not the sort of chap I can work with at any price. I can't quite remember his name now - Ian Morris/Riley/Wolseley - or something like that; anyhow I expect Mark M will know him, just in case anybody wishes to know who to steer clear of.

And is it very professional to slag off this chap on a forum he more than likely is not a member of? As such he is unable to put his point of view forward. Remember, he, like all Observers nationwide do, gave his time up for free to try and help you. Our observers (for readers not aware of this saga TripleS joined the IAM through the same local group I passed my test with and am a Qualified Observer for) are a mixture of Qualified Observers, who have passed the IAM Qualified Observer practical and written tests, and Group Observers who have been Observers since before the QO test came into place. We have great success in our group and have only had single figures of failures. Some personalities will not get along together and I suggest this is what happened with you and him.

Mark - I do appreciate the unpaid work done by IAM Observers, and they deserve great credit for that, but they have to be willing to explain the reasons for the techniques they introduce to Associates. The chap I went out with was not willing to do that, and from what I've read other people have also encountered that attitude from some IAM people. This is regrettable as it detracts from the level of success both they as individuals and the organisation as a whole could be enjoying.

That's why I feel quite strongly about this, and perhaps a more careful reading of what I've said on this subject during the past year or two would have enabled you to understand a little better.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Vaux]

TripleS said:

....but they have to be willing to explain the reasons for the techniques they introduce to Associates. The chap I went out with was not willing to do that, and from what I've read other people have also encountered that attitude from some IAM people. This is regrettable as it detracts from the level of success both they as individuals and the organisation as a whole could be enjoying.

So, if I'd been your Observer and could explain why pull-push is a perfectly adequate method of steering for the majority of road driving situations, you'd have bothered changing and continued with the programme?

I doubt it.

Edited by Vaux on Monday 27th August 18:14

Edited by Vaux on Monday 27th August 18:15

[markmullen]

TripleS said:

Mark - I do appreciate the unpaid work done by IAM Observers, and they deserve great credit for that, but they have to be willing to explain the reasons for the techniques they introduce to Associates. The chap I went out with was not willing to do that, and from what I've read other people have also encountered that attitude from some IAM people. This is regrettable as it detracts from the level of success both they as individuals and the organisation as a whole could be enjoying.

That's why I feel quite strongly about this, and perhaps a more careful reading of what I've said on this subject during the past year or two would have enabled you to understand a little better.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I have read your posts concerning your experiences with the IAM and what comes over, to be frank, is the feeling that you are of the belief that as you are such a great driver that the IAM should adopt your "system" and that you are totally averse to criticism of your driving. Your comment about 48+ years of successful driving backs this theory up. You failed to answer my question of how you measure your success.

Maybe the Observer you had was unable to explain adequately exactly why we use the hand position we do. I agree that is not ideal however yet again this appears to reflect your arrogant approach to this situation, one of "he couldn't explain why so I must know better". Maybe just maybe it would be a wise idea on such a small point to simply accept the IAM's system instead of endlessly questioning it (especially knowing who developed the system the IAM uses, it is not just the random thoughts of your Observer).

Finally as something of a challenge, you say your driving is "successful" and has its own style, why not sit the IAM test, you don't actually have to accept the help of an Observer, if you're prepared to put your test fee where your mouth is. Sit the test and see if a Police qualified IAM Examiner agrees with your appraisal of your driving. If you come back having passed then feel free to criticise the IAM's system.

[TripleS]

Vaux said:

TripleS said:

....but they have to be willing to explain the reasons for the techniques they introduce to Associates. The chap I went out with was not willing to do that, and from what I've read other people have also encountered that attitude from some IAM people. This is regrettable as it detracts from the level of success both they as individuals and the organisation as a whole could be enjoying.

So, if I'd been your Observer and could explain why pull-push is a perfectly adequate method of steering for the majority of road driving situations, you'd have bothered changing and continued with the programme?

I doubt it.

Edited by Vaux on Monday 27th August 18:14

Edited by Vaux on Monday 27th August 18:15

I don't think I mentioned pull-push steering in this case; what I was referring to was an extremely fussy attitude to the way the steering wheel should be held while travelling in a straight line. The observer wasn't content with me holding the wheel at 9-3 (which many people consider to be a perfectly acceptable method), for him the hands had to be higher, so I raised them a bit, but it still wasn't enough, so I raised them another half inch or so, and had to move my thumbs slightly so that they lay along the face of the steering wheel - and only then was he happy with it! IMHO that was being too picky about a very minor detail.

With regard to the use of pull-push steering itself, that is but one method of handling a steering wheel and there are several others. Some people choose to use pull-push most of the time (like IIRC Von says he does) but if somebody elects to make more sparing use of that technique and they find they get a satisfactory result by using some of the other methods part of the time, what does it matter?

I just happen to believe that any reasonably respectable hand positioning and wheel handling ought to be OK, so long as a reliable result is obtained by the driver in question.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

markmullen said:

TripleS said:

Mark - I do appreciate the unpaid work done by IAM Observers, and they deserve great credit for that, but they have to be willing to explain the reasons for the techniques they introduce to Associates. The chap I went out with was not willing to do that, and from what I've read other people have also encountered that attitude from some IAM people. This is regrettable as it detracts from the level of success both they as individuals and the organisation as a whole could be enjoying.

That's why I feel quite strongly about this, and perhaps a more careful reading of what I've said on this subject during the past year or two would have enabled you to understand a little better.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I have read your posts concerning your experiences with the IAM and what comes over, to be frank, is the feeling that you are of the belief that as you are such a great driver that the IAM should adopt your "system" and that you are totally averse to criticism of your driving. Your comment about 48+ years of successful driving backs this theory up. You failed to answer my question of how you measure your success.

Maybe the Observer you had was unable to explain adequately exactly why we use the hand position we do. I agree that is not ideal however yet again this appears to reflect your arrogant approach to this situation, one of "he couldn't explain why so I must know better". Maybe just maybe it would be a wise idea on such a small point to simply accept the IAM's system instead of endlessly questioning it (especially knowing who developed the system the IAM uses, it is not just the random thoughts of your Observer).

Finally as something of a challenge, you say your driving is "successful" and has its own style, why not sit the IAM test, you don't actually have to accept the help of an Observer, if you're prepared to put your test fee where your mouth is. Sit the test and see if a Police qualified IAM Examiner agrees with your appraisal of your driving. If you come back having passed then feel free to criticise the IAM's system.

Oh dear!

Mark - I'm really sorry to see you suffering from this (sort of) inferiority complex, and while we can't reasonably be described as bosom pals we have met a couple of times at the Scarborough IAM Group, so I'd like to try to help.

What I suggest you do is arrange to come up here sometime (it's only about 20 miles so you ought to be able to manage that) and I'll take you out for a tootle for an hour or two, and then you might know what you're talking about. Now if you can't bear the thought of being driven around for a spell by a cantankerous old cove who's been driving since before you were born, well that's a non-starter, which is a shame. In that case you'd better speak to Philip, who used to be your Chief Observer/Training Officer and see what he can tell you about my driving based on his run out with me in July last year.

My recollection of that drive (which was the local IAM test route) was that Philip was very complimentary about my driving, and merely said that I ought to put in a week or two of practice in applying 'the system' more consistently, following which I should be able to take the test with confidence. Now, is that not interesting? Bear in mind that up to that point I'd had one useless run out with a certain Observer, and no tuition whatsoever - but there was Philip judging me to be near enough at IAM test standard.

....and how many observed/tutored sessions did you have before reaching IAM test standard? Six to eight, was it?

Look, I really couldn't care less about anybody's need for feelings of superiority or status - that's their problem, I'm not into that kind of thing - but I tell you I'm heartily sick of the bullshit and general posturing from some sections of the supposedly advanced driving fraternity, so please be clear about that. Let's just calm things down and have a bit of credit where it's due - and if, when all is reckoned up, not much of it accrues to me, I'm honestly not that bothered; I'll make my own way. Take care everybody.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[BOF]

""Hi,

sorry if this is stupid question.
what does IAM stand for?
is this run by the police?
is it only for the police?

thanks in advance?

steve""

Steve,

It's kind of like walking into a pub for the first time and listening to an argument - coming on this Forum can be a bit like that - we argue about some details but generally discuss further education in driving...not a bad thing.

Pick out the bits that interest you and decide if you want to join the IAM - hope to welcome you sometime.

BOF.

[IRM]

X8 Saggy said:

Hi,

sorry if this is stupid question.
what does IAM stand for?
is this run by the police?
is it only for the police?

thanks in advance?

steve

as someone who did it 19 years ago and hasn't been a member for 18 its a good and cheap place to start, can lead to other things if you want it, take out and put in what you want

[Vaux]

TripleS said:

....The observer wasn't content with me holding the wheel at 9-3 (which many people consider to be a perfectly acceptable method), for him the hands had to be higher, so I raised them a bit, but it still wasn't enough, so I raised them another half inch or so, and had to move my thumbs slightly so that they lay along the face of the steering wheel - and only then was he happy with it! IMHO that was being too picky about a very minor detail.

Well, that is picky! Even the IAM book allows "quarter to three". I wouldn't have bothered correcting that.

TripleS said:

With regard to the use of pull-push steering itself, that is but one method of handling a steering wheel and there are several others. Some people choose to use pull-push most of the time (like IIRC Von says he does) but if somebody elects to make more sparing use of that technique and they find they get a satisfactory result by using some of the other methods part of the time, what does it matter?

You can join driving clubs that are perfectly happy with any steering method as long as it's safe and accurate. IAM likes pull-push, and to be honest, unless you're driving a vehicle with a small steering wheel and a very responsive steering arrangement, pull-push is a very good way to steer.

There's much more to the IAM than how to steer/when to indicate/which colour cardigan to wear. !!

[TripleS]

Vaux said:

TripleS said:

....The observer wasn't content with me holding the wheel at 9-3 (which many people consider to be a perfectly acceptable method), for him the hands had to be higher, so I raised them a bit, but it still wasn't enough, so I raised them another half inch or so, and had to move my thumbs slightly so that they lay along the face of the steering wheel - and only then was he happy with it! IMHO that was being too picky about a very minor detail.

Well, that is picky! Even the IAM book allows "quarter to three". I wouldn't have bothered correcting that.

TripleS said:

With regard to the use of pull-push steering itself, that is but one method of handling a steering wheel and there are several others. Some people choose to use pull-push most of the time (like IIRC Von says he does) but if somebody elects to make more sparing use of that technique and they find they get a satisfactory result by using some of the other methods part of the time, what does it matter?

You can join driving clubs that are perfectly happy with any steering method as long as it's safe and accurate. IAM likes pull-push, and to be honest, unless you're driving a vehicle with a small steering wheel and a very responsive steering arrangement, pull-push is a very good way to steer.

There's much more to the IAM than how to steer/when to indicate/which colour cardigan to wear. !!

Yes, there certainly is, which is splendid; but it's always a shame when we get distracted away from the important stuff by excessive fuss over things that could well be left alone.

Anyhow, I'm glad to see that you and I appear to reached an understanding.

I must now see if I can achieve the same situation with Mark, and I'm ready when he is. Apart from that, he's a pretty big fellow and he only lives 20 miles away.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gromit37]

Right Mark M and Mr TripleS... get this sorted out or I'll come roud and bat both of you round the head! . Life is too short to make this a long drawn out battle, so shake hands, agree to disagree and if necessary grit your teeth whilst doing it. TripleS you're old enough to know better. Yes... you can try and look innocent, but it won't work with me!

Never work with animals, children or Advanced drivers!