Gearchange video

[gridgway]

GreenV8S said:

Yung Man said:

I'd like you to read the bit were they say, "or the driver had the bad habit of riding the clutch"

I agree riding the clutch is a bad habit and will cause increased wear on the clutch release bearing. However, holding the clutch down for a couple of seconds during a gear change is not 'riding the clutch' and won't cause any significant wear. You may not feel like taking my word for it, but I assure you that the technique R_U_LOCAL showed us doesn't cause any undue wear; on the contrary it is just about the least damaging gear change technique that is possible.

Edited by GreenV8S on Sunday 2nd September 22:39

I don't think it does anything much bad to the CRB. They are set with an amount of pre-load (CRB pressed against the fingers) in normal use anyway. Just doing a bit of surfing gives 18lb-22lb CRB pre-load in one application.

The main damage of riding the clutch is that of slipping it and wearing the plates (or generating excessive heat).

[mph999]

bramley said:

You're surely aware that changing gear really isn't that difficult aren't you? I see from another thread someone has requested a video of you positioning your seat and mirrors

Actually I'll disagree. For Joe Average, who may be new to advanced driving, making every gearchange with complete mechanical sympathy, and smoothness so that it isn't felt, is actually quite difficult.
Yes some pick it up quickly, but in my experience the majority don't.

Martin

[Santa Claws]

Due to synchromesh, double de-clutching is largely obsolete. Sure, if you want to do it then go ahead - you're doing no harm by doing a well-timed DDC.

In my view, unless I'm driving a car with shagged synchros or a real old car with an old gearbox then DDC is a waste of time.

Start braking.
Stop braking after desired speed has been met.
Clutch in.
Select desired lower gear.
Set the revs.
Clutch out.

Get the revs set correctly and no wear will be caused and a smooth ride is to be had for all.

Why needlessly over-complicate things "just because"?

[coombsie66]

CommanderJameson said:

coombsie66 said:

LOL, this is hillarious, not to mention THE biggest waste of time and videotape.

You arnt even showing ANY techniques in the video!!! If it was a video on double de-clutching to smooth out gearshifts and save your synchro's or one illustrating heel and toe-ing then it may be a worthwile use of you tube space, but jees, what prompted you to post this drivvle.

Oh my god, i found a way to move the stick with a nob on the end without the graunching noises! And my gearbox has lasted more than 1000 miles! WOW!

Get in a car with worn out synchro's or even a truck with a box with no synchros and then see how your gearchanging 'technique' works....crunch.

Or are you quite capable of a perfect heel and toe downshift with a double de-clutch thrown in, and you are just 'dumbing this down' for us people not worthy of such god-like driving skills. lol

LOL, i cant believe someone actually posted this and expected to get positive comments, LOL

Bell.
End.

ETA: Irony overload. (see bolded text)

Edited by CommanderJameson on Friday 31st August 11:54

LOL,

Well you would seemingly know quite a lot about bell ends as someone's appears to be permanently positioned in your mouth.

[Yung Man]

Santa Claws said:

Due to synchromesh, double de-clutching is largely obsolete. Sure, if you want to do it then go ahead - you're doing no harm by doing a well-timed DDC.

In my view, unless I'm driving a car with shagged synchros or a real old car with an old gearbox then DDC is a waste of time.

Start braking.
Stop braking after desired speed has been met.
Clutch in.
Select desired lower gear.
Set the revs.
Clutch out.

Get the revs set correctly and no wear will be caused and a smooth ride is to be had for all.

Why needlessly over-complicate things "just because"?

The type of gear change you mention is fine for normal driving but most PH'er probably drive with a bit of gusto so imagine you are driving along and up ahead is a left hander with an incline, you don't want to brake and you don't want your passengers chin to touch their chest when you down change.
You approach at 70mph no braking, DDC down a gear, increase revs, a racing change (as I call them) would do the trick but isn't as kind to the transmission, seeing as most on here IMO probably drive like that the need to get a DDC change near perfect will be a lesson well learned, I don't see it as "needlessly over complicating things".

[coombsie66]

Santa Claws said:

coombsie66 said:

LOL, this is hillarious, not to mention THE biggest waste of time and videotape.

You arnt even showing ANY techniques in the video!!! If it was a video on double de-clutching to smooth out gearshifts and save your synchro's or one illustrating heel and toe-ing then it may be a worthwile use of you tube space, but jees, what prompted you to post this drivvle.

Oh my god, i found a way to move the stick with a nob on the end without the graunching noises! And my gearbox has lasted more than 1000 miles! WOW!

Get in a car with worn out synchro's or even a truck with a box with no synchros and then see how your gearchanging 'technique' works....crunch.

Or are you quite capable of a perfect heel and toe downshift with a double de-clutch thrown in, and you are just 'dumbing this down' for us people not worthy of such god-like driving skills. lol

LOL, i cant believe someone actually posted this and expected to get positive comments, LOL

If you are so good, where is your amazing video showing your amazing skills?

Retard. off back to McDonnalds car park with your inbread boy racer friends.

Haha, at least you spelt the expletive correctly....

Where is my video? I cant seem to find anyone bored enough to sit in a passenger seat with a video camera pointed at the drivers footwell whilst driving along at a leisurley pace on the road.

For those of you who appreciate footwork of a more admirable nature, i direct you to the following link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjKKuj2omR4

Edited by coombsie66 on Monday 3rd September 09:14

[coombsie66]

Santa Claws said:

Due to synchromesh, double de-clutching is largely obsolete. Sure, if you want to do it then go ahead - you're doing no harm by doing a well-timed DDC.

In my view, unless I'm driving a car with shagged synchros or a real old car with an old gearbox then DDC is a waste of time.

Start braking.
Stop braking after desired speed has been met.
Clutch in.
Select desired lower gear.
Set the revs.
Clutch out.

Get the revs set correctly and no wear will be caused and a smooth ride is to be had for all.

Why needlessly over-complicate things "just because"?

Because you are still causing wear on your synchros in that instance. Even if you rev-match but do not DDC the synchro is still having to equalise the rotational velocities of the output shaft and lay shafts, and it is working against the inertia of the layshaft, which is significant when you consider the gear-pairs are always meshed and rotating.

You will do well to beat a modern synchro for speed when trying to DDC, but for road driving, not always on the upshift, but always on downshifts when revmatching is required, i always find DDC a far smoother way to shift. You can feel it through the gear stick.

As i stated before, untill you have driven a not particularly refined gearbox with a direct linkage (not a cable linkage in most FWD cars) you will struggle to feel the difference between DDC and not, unless you are executing it well.

I began DDC as a result of the sychros not being able to keep up with a fast shift (you can feel the resistance in the gearstick, or a crunch if you push it too hard), now it is just a force of habit.

[GreenV8S]

coombsie66 said:

Santa Claws said:

Why needlessly over-complicate things "just because"?

Because you are still causing wear on your synchros in that instance.

Now you're being silly. This is the job that synchros are designed to do, and they do it happily. Are you also worried about wearing out the bearings in the steering column, or the door hinges? If you are driving a car without working synchros then you do need to use DDC. The synchros on mine will fade after a few hot laps and get so slow that it's actually quicker to go through a full DDC change. But unless it's necessary it's a waste of time. Specifically, a waste of the driver's time, at a point when the driver is likely to have other more important things to do like steering and braking. If you can do DDC changes quickly and easily then there's no reason why you shouldn't if you want to; it's your time to waste. But to try to justify this by saying that using the synchros is bad for the gearbox is silly.

[Yung Man]

GreenV8S said:

coombsie66 said:

Santa Claws said:

Why needlessly over-complicate things "just because"?

Because you are still causing wear on your synchros in that instance.

Now you're being silly. This is the job that synchros are designed to do, and they do it happily. Are you also worried about wearing out the bearings in the steering column, or the door hinges? If you are driving a car without working synchros then you do need to use DDC. The synchros on mine will fade after a few hot laps and get so slow that it's actually quicker to go through a full DDC change. But unless it's necessary it's a waste of time. Specifically, a waste of the driver's time, at a point when the driver is likely to have other more important things to do like steering and braking. If you can do DDC changes quickly and easily then there's no reason why you shouldn't if you want to; it's your time to waste. But to try to justify this by saying that using the synchros is bad for the gearbox is silly.

You are talking about split seconds here, if you are on the track then thats understandable but we are talking about driving on public roads surely, this thread is in "Advanced Driving" not "Track Days".
It seem to boil down to don't bother DDC on the track because you will come second or Perfect the art of DDC because it makes you a more complete driver (on the road).
Both opinions are correct it just depends where you are coming from.

Are we anywhere near an understanding now Greenie?..

[Ravell]

GreenV8S said:

Are you also worried about wearing out the bearings in the steering column, or the door hinges?

I do actualy worry about those kind of thing...

Doesn't stop me opening the door or turning the wheel for a corner though!

[supermono]

Yung Man said:

Perfect the art of DDC because it makes you a more complete driver

Seriously though, does being able to DDC impress anyone? It sure as hell doesn't impress me any more than being able to wire a plug or thread a spinning jenny would.

As an interesting bit of quirkyness it might have me raise an eyebrow when someone tells me they can DDC when I'm down the pub, but I'd look on them in the same way as someone able to blow up and explode a hot water bottle with their lungs alone

SM

[Timberwolf]

mph999 said:

Actually I'll disagree. For Joe Average, who may be new to advanced driving, making every gearchange with complete mechanical sympathy, and smoothness so that it isn't felt, is actually quite difficult.

Certainly when I've mentioned this subject in conversations, there are plenty of non-enthusiast drivers who will take the attitude, "I started in gear one, I ended in gear two, what else could you want?"

It's like a lot of complex subjects - you start off at a level of unconscious incompetence, and half the battle is learning that there is actually something there to learn.

(Doubly so with driving, where your natural attitude tends to be, "I'm a driving god" from the moment the L plate is detached.)

[supermono]

Timberwolf said:

Certainly when I've mentioned this subject in conversations, there are plenty of non-enthusiast drivers who will take the attitude, "I started in gear one, I ended in gear two, what else could you want?"

But I think a much larger cross section of people would have my attitude: it was a pretty smooth gearchange, most of them are, I'm never going to break anything or wear anything out by changing like this, anything more is the result of an obsessive compulsive disorder that I'd want to have looked at by a psychologist.

SM

[coombsie66]

GreenV8S said:

coombsie66 said:

Santa Claws said:

Why needlessly over-complicate things "just because"?

Because you are still causing wear on your synchros in that instance.

Now you're being silly. This is the job that synchros are designed to do, and they do it happily. Are you also worried about wearing out the bearings in the steering column, or the door hinges? If you are driving a car without working synchros then you do need to use DDC. The synchros on mine will fade after a few hot laps and get so slow that it's actually quicker to go through a full DDC change. But unless it's necessary it's a waste of time. Specifically, a waste of the driver's time, at a point when the driver is likely to have other more important things to do like steering and braking. If you can do DDC changes quickly and easily then there's no reason why you shouldn't if you want to; it's your time to waste. But to try to justify this by saying that using the synchros is bad for the gearbox is silly.

Ok my reasoning (mechanically) may be a little pedantic, but mechanical sympathy is a personal choice that we all make when judging every driving input to the car, ultimately the smoother the better; As i said, i learnt to DDC, and began to integrate it to my driving style through a necessity brought about by worn synchros. In doing that it becomes part of driving habit to me, and as others have mentioned makes you more of a 'complete' driver IMO.

I am not trying to preach that if you dont DDC on the road then you arn't worthy of the right to drive on the roads! All i am saying is that it is another challenge in the act of driving with a manual gearbox, and when you consider driving to be an 'art' and you personally take pride in the standard at which you drive (which anyone who browses an 'advanced driving' forum i would imagine would profess to), then i consider DDC to be a skill that is a worthwile technique on the road.

When driving on the track i would still say that DDC on the downshifts in a road car synchro'd box still results in smoother downshifts and a lesser propensity to lock the rear wheels, i wouldnt use DDC on the upshift unless the synchros were lagging to much and causing a graunch. Ofcourse it varies car to car, and from driver to driver.

Which more or less brings me onto the point that the initial video in this thread more or less shows nothing. In order to understand what the author is trying to illustrate, you have to have enough of an idea about it already that you know how to do it!
The act of changing gear smoothly is refined through feel and feedback from the car and the controls the driver actuates. It is entirely different car to car, this is why i see the video as being pointless, it illustrates no concept any more advanced than what you are taught for your driving test, or in my case by my father in a clapped out escort in a field at the age of 12!

[Yung Man]

supermono said:

Timberwolf said:

Certainly when I've mentioned this subject in conversations, there are plenty of non-enthusiast drivers who will take the attitude, "I started in gear one, I ended in gear two, what else could you want?"

But I think a much larger cross section of people would have my attitude: it was a pretty smooth gearchange, most of them are, I'm never going to break anything or wear anything out by changing like this, anything more is the result of an obsessive compulsive disorder that I'd want to have looked at by a psychologist.

SM

When I learned to drive a truck the instructor told me not to bother DDC so I didn't, when I went for my test the owner of the driving school took me, on the way to the test centre I changed down without DDC, he blew his stack........ "What the fxxkin hell are you doing" he said I told him what Jimmy had told me (don't bother DDC).
Anyway I then had the 1 hour it took me to get to Kirkham TC to learn DDC, I failed my test, I tried to DDC but my approach and speed was all wrong because I hadn't practiced it enough, I retook my test and passed.

The opinion now seems to have changed, fuel costs money, transmissions cost money, Brakes cost money but worn brakes are the least expensive so don't bother DDC, I don't agree with this philosophy but it seems to be based on cost only.
I think here we are talking about the pros and cons of DDC or not DDC'ing, slowing the car (vehicle) by dropping a gear doesn't come into this discussion (IMO), So if you want to drop down a gear to take that left hand up hill bend on the public roads split seconds don't matter good driving practice does, doing a DDC instead of a SDC with a blip shows more skill and mechanical sympathy.

Edited by Yung Man on Monday 3rd September 12:16

[Santa Claws]

coombsie66 said:

When driving on the track i would still say that DDC on the downshifts in a road car synchro'd box still results in smoother downshifts and a lesser propensity to lock the rear wheels, i wouldnt use DDC on the upshift unless the synchros were lagging to much and causing a graunch. Ofcourse it varies car to car, and from driver to driver.

If you match your revs properly when you are doing a SDC downchange, the downchange will be smooth.

DDC in this instance will be as smooth, but you are kiding yourself if you believe it's smoother.

[The Griffalo]

I wasn't convinced about this Reg but I thought I'd give it a go. Now while the jury is still out for me in some circumstances one area I have noticed an improvement is in overtaking.

Previously I'd blip and change down which causes the car to transfer weight forward and lose a fraction of it's speed just when you want to be accelerating. By only partially closing the throttle and setting the revs where you anticipate they should be the car picks up quicker and there's no weight transfer.

Works well in the Volvo but I think I'll give it a bit more practise before I have a go in the Griff

[GreenV8S]

Yung Man said:

You are talking about split seconds here, if you are on the track then thats understandable but we are talking about driving on public roads surely, this thread is in "Advanced Driving" not "Track Days".

It seem to boil down to don't bother DDC on the track because you will come second or Perfect the art of DDC because it makes you a more complete driver (on the road).

Both opinions are correct it just depends where you are coming from.

Are we anywhere near an understanding now Greenie?..

My arguments against using DDC routinely are not based on the need to make maximum progress. It is simply that the justifications given for using this technique are not convincing.

DDC means the gear change takes more attention, and takes longer to complete, so that the driver has his hands and feet and mind occupied for longer than necessary. In terms of mechanical sympathy, it has just doubled the work on the clutch release mechanism so halved its life. It's still down there in the noise as far as wear and tear is concerned and not a valid reason IMO to justify using one technique over another, but if you're using minute levels of wear and tear as criteria for choosing whether to use DDC then it's by no means obvious that you are actually improving things.

If you need to DDC then you should. If you don't need to then you may still choose to, but accept that there are disadvantages to DDC as well as advantages. The times when DDC is actually justified are very few and far between. To apply this technique all the time just for the sake of it means you incur these costs for no good reason. IMO advanced driving is about trying to improve and optimise all aspects of driving - safety, progress, costs, convenience etc. Applying a technique which is not the optimum one does not strike me as advanced.

Even in cars which DO need DDC, it is extremely rare to need to DDC on an upshift. With the internal friction on your side, even 'boxes with no synchros at all will usually snick straight in. I don't think it's easy to justify DDC on downshifts in a modern road car, but on upshifts the argument is considerably harder to swallow.

Use DDC all the time if you want to, but if you think you have gained anything by it then IMO you are kidding yourself.

[GreenV8S]

coombsie66 said:

Which more or less brings me onto the point that the initial video in this thread more or less shows nothing.

It shows matching the engine revs to the road speed using the throttle rather than (as most people seem to do) using the clutch.

[Schnell]

Reg,

First of all thanks for taking the time to illustrate these techniques. Secondly, I am sorry you've had to put up with the utter tripe that the aformentioned trolls have spouted. Hopefully, now that the schools are back, the trolling will stop

Anyway, I have long since been a fan of the DDC technique in all circumstances ranging from cold starts in the morning to flat out track days. However, I have to agree with you that matching the revs to road speed either up or down the 'box is very difficult with a 'blip' when the car is in neutral and have only ever done so out of the (mis-informed or otherwise) belief that I am protecting the gearbox. Moreover, I have found that taking the time to DDC can move my concentration away from more important things like pointing in the right direction! (although this may be down to the fact that I've only been driving for 6 1/2 years so still have plenty to learn).

Despite this however, it is still a skill I am at least proud to be aware of although I cannot claim to have mastered it by any means. I wonder therefore, if you have plans to record a demonstration of such as well as demonstrating H/T?

Regards,

Simon