Gearchange video

[Yung Man]

GreenV8S said:

coombsie66 said:

Which more or less brings me onto the point that the initial video in this thread more or less shows nothing.

It shows matching the engine revs to the road speed using the throttle rather than (as most people seem to do) using the clutch.

Hang on who said anything about "using the clutch" in the context you are talking about, the differnce here seems to be from your point of view blipping the throttle with the clutch down or in my case blipping the throttle with the clutch up, If you used the clutch the way you discribe you would be driving like a beginner, you would get engine braking I don't think anybody has suggested that, In fact I think I clearly stated that thats not what we are talking about.

[Yung Man]

Yung Man said:

I think here we are talking about the pros and cons of DDC or not DDC'ing, slowing the car (vehicle) by dropping a gear doesn't come into this discussion

This is what I said at 12.13pm today.

[supermono]

Schnell said:

I am sorry you've had to put up with the utter tripe that the aformentioned trolls have spouted. Hopefully, now that the schools are back, the trolling will stop

I do hope I'm included in this, although I take exception to being called a troll. This section is about advanced driving. Discussion on how to deal with old and/or knackered gearboxes, or how to prolong the life of modern mechanicals from millions of miles to more millions of miles, belongs in a section called "memories" where the merits of dashpot oiling and leather crash helmets could also be discussed.

If there's one thing that puts people like me who're desperately interested in improving our driving and mechanical knowledge off this whole "Advanced" driving dictat, is the way these "advanced" drivers can wring their hands for hours about irrelevances like DDC. Never mind take that offensively patronising tone with anyone who's big on creativity and small on dogma.

SM

[Schnell]

supermono said:

Schnell said:

I am sorry you've had to put up with the utter tripe that the aformentioned trolls have spouted. Hopefully, now that the schools are back, the trolling will stop

I do hope I'm included in this, although I take exception to being called a troll. This section is about advanced driving. Discussion on how to deal with old and/or knackered gearboxes, or how to prolong the life of modern mechanicals from millions of miles to more millions of miles, belongs in a section called "memories" where the merits of dashpot oiling and leather crash helmets could also be discussed.

If there's one thing that puts people like me who're desperately interested in improving our driving and mechanical knowledge off this whole "Advanced" driving dictat, is the way these "advanced" drivers can wring their hands for hours about irrelevances like DDC. Never mind take that offensively patronising tone with anyone who's big on creativity and small on dogma.

SM

Fear not, I was referring to the cretins who failed to understand differences between driving and parking at Macdonalds. I will of course take your proposed method of gear-changing with a large pinch of salt

I too am very keen to learn how to drive properly. Afterall, I'm at my happiest the second I belt up and crank up the old girl, so it stands to reason that I should learn how to drive my car rather than simply drive it, if you follow me.

DDC and such techniques are a difficult area. At present, I sit firmly on the fence as I can see advantages of DDC as well as the disadvantages. Therefore I would be keen to see lucid arguments in favor (or otherwise) of both so that I can come to an informed conclusion.

[GreenV8S]

Yung Man said:

GreenV8S said:

coombsie66 said:

Which more or less brings me onto the point that the initial video in this thread more or less shows nothing.

It shows matching the engine revs to the road speed using the throttle rather than (as most people seem to do) using the clutch.

Hang on who said anything about "using the clutch" in the context you are talking about, the differnce here seems to be from your point of view blipping the throttle with the clutch down or in my case blipping the throttle with the clutch up, If you used the clutch the way you discribe you would be driving like a beginner, you would get engine braking I don't think anybody has suggested that, In fact I think I clearly stated that thats not what we are talking about.

Agreed that the issue of DDC or not is a diversion from the main topic under discussion, which is the technique R_U_LOCAL was demonstrating. The question was asked: what was he trying to show? IMO what he was trying to show was matching the engine revs to the road speed using the throttle. I would say that the vast majority of people *don't* do this, they use the clutch to a greater or lesser extent to pull the engine speed up or down to match the road speed.

[BertBert]

note to self: must watch the vid and contribute something of use to the thread!
Bert

[WhoseGeneration]

What is this "debate" all about?
Keep it smooth, such that you cannot detect the gearchange, whatever technique you choose to employ, and the mechanicals will be happy.
Modern transmissions, well, most don't even have specified changes of lubricant and go to the knacker's yard having never been touched.
Clutches, again, unless abused, are mainly long lived.

[Santa Claws]

WhoseGeneration said:

What is this "debate" all about?
Keep it smooth, such that you cannot detect the gearchange, whatever technique you choose to employ, and the mechanicals will be happy.
Modern transmissions, well, most don't even have specified changes of lubricant and go to the knacker's yard having never been touched.
Clutches, again, unless abused, are mainly long lived.

Exactly!

[BertBert]

watched the vid, looks great. It's odd to see the revs being slightly too high on occasion. No worse than being lower, but unusual.

Bit worried about that right thumb though going inside the wheel!

This is my fav foot vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTFRihT84Hs

Bert

[Gromit37]

Well, whatever the merits or otherwise of DDC and however you choose to match revs, however many idiotic trolls are on the prowl...

A BIG thankyou to Reg for taking the time and making an effort to produce a video to go with his excellent articles.

Ian

[R_U_LOCAL]

BertBert said:

watched the vid, looks great. It's odd to see the revs being slightly too high on occasion. No worse than being lower, but unusual.

What do you class as "too high"? the revs are all there to be used - right up to the red line! Some of the changes to lower gears towards the end of the video were done at higher engine speeds than I would normally, but like I said, it's an excersise - the goal is to not feel the gearchange. You can hear it, of course, but you shouldn't feel it.

BertBert said:

Bit worried about that right thumb though going inside the wheel!

If you go way back to my first ever post on here, you'll see that I occasionally disagree with some of the more traditional elements of "advanced driving". If you read my post on steering, you'll remember that I don't care how you hold the wheel, as long as you operate it correctly.

If I were driving off-road, you wouldn't see my thumb through the wheel spokes, but on-road, it's a comfortable position for me and Ill stick with it, thanks.

BertBert said:

This is my fav foot vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTFRihT84Hs

Bert

Just like my drive to Asda this afternoon.

[tiberium]

R_U_LOCAL, could you show me your post on steering, please?

[Yung Man]

tiberium said:

R_U_LOCAL, could you show me your post on steering, please?

Is this the one?, It shows Reg and his misses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfAYqezZvMI







It's not really him.

[R_U_LOCAL]

Yung Man said:

tiberium said:

R_U_LOCAL, could you show me your post on steering, please?

Is this the one?, It shows Reg and his misses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfAYqezZvMI


It's not really him.

No, but it is really my wife - who's that bloke she's with?

Anyway, the steering article is here...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[BertBert]

R_U_LOCAL said:

BertBert said:

watched the vid, looks great. It's odd to see the revs being slightly too high on occasion. No worse than being lower, but unusual.

What do you class as "too high"? the revs are all there to be used - right up to the red line! Some of the changes to lower gears towards the end of the video were done at higher engine speeds than I would normally, but like I said, it's an excersise - the goal is to not feel the gearchange. You can hear it, of course, but you shouldn't feel it.

BertBert said:

Bit worried about that right thumb though going inside the wheel!

If you go way back to my first ever post on here, you'll see that I occasionally disagree with some of the more traditional elements of "advanced driving". If you read my post on steering, you'll remember that I don't care how you hold the wheel, as long as you operate it correctly.

If I were driving off-road, you wouldn't see my thumb through the wheel spokes, but on-road, it's a comfortable position for me and Ill stick with it, thanks.

BertBert said:

This is my fav foot vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTFRihT84Hs

Bert

Just like my drive to Asda this afternoon.

Ahh, what I meant regarding the revs was I noticed an occasion (can't remember if there was only one), where the revs were slightly unmatched, being a little high for the gear. You can see them drop as the clutch is engaged.

Regarding the thumb, it was a tongue in cheek observation! It's as you say horses for courses. In my caterham, I always have as full a grip as possible as it takes quite a bit of holding. If that represents a higher risk to my thumb in the event of a crash, so be it. Off-road I agree with you, apart from...driving a non-power steering 110 which needed all of my strength and grip to turn the wheel.

Regarding the vid of Vergers' feet, it is a topic of debate in Radical circles whether the clutchless upchange is sensible. In theory the sequential box is designed to do it, but in the heat of track work, it's all too easy to strain what is a relatively lightweight piece of kit. My gearbox has just gone bang. It was over-hours anyway, so due for a refresh. I think I will be going back to using the clutch on upchanges when it comes back though! You can see that Vergers mostly dips the clutch on the upchange, sometimes only v small amount though.

I thought it was you I heard driving past to the supermarket!

Bert

[coombsie66]

Santa Claws said:

coombsie66 said:

When driving on the track i would still say that DDC on the downshifts in a road car synchro'd box still results in smoother downshifts and a lesser propensity to lock the rear wheels, i wouldnt use DDC on the upshift unless the synchros were lagging to much and causing a graunch. Ofcourse it varies car to car, and from driver to driver.

If you match your revs properly when you are doing a SDC downchange, the downchange will be smooth.

DDC in this instance will be as smooth, but you are kiding yourself if you believe it's smoother.

Well i currently drive a 1992 ford falcon EB XR6 which has a fairly viscious LSD (note: not viscous!), a relatively short ratio gearbox, a 4 litre straight 6 with a very long stroke and lots of torque and engine breaking capacity (basically a reworked truck engine). It also has probably the hardest tyres you can buy and the synchros, although recently replaced are not the best.

I can guarentee you that by DDC on downshifts it makes the braking zone and entry to a corner MUCH smoother IN MY CAR. By DDC it allows me to slot into gear almost instantly without having to wait for the synchros to do their job (a task which seeminly takes longer in my car than most more modern set-ups). Due to the shorter engagement time more time can be spent using engine braking, and rev matching becomes more accurate, if i do not DDC then i often find myself waiting for the synchros and over-breaking the rear wheels on the clutch up take.

So we'll agree to disagree, but i will continue to DDC on downshifts be it on road or track with my car, and not for the sake of trying to exercise my left leg...

[coombsie66]

Santa Claws said:

WhoseGeneration said:

What is this "debate" all about?
Keep it smooth, such that you cannot detect the gearchange, whatever technique you choose to employ, and the mechanicals will be happy.
Modern transmissions, well, most don't even have specified changes of lubricant and go to the knacker's yard having never been touched.
Clutches, again, unless abused, are mainly long lived.

Exactly!

I would say thats pretty much spot on actually!

Its all down to personal preference in the end which is what makes driving different cars in different situations so entertaining. It funnily enough is the same reason for which i began posting in this thread, driving is about feel, and the differences in technique and approach required between cars and situations IMO render the benifits of the video at the beginning of this thread slim to none...

[saxmund]

Somebody, I can't remember who, and IIRC, did post a comment about revving too high before changing up. Reg's comment about all the revs being there to use is surely correct. In particular, I find (with the Alfa at least) that you lose more revs when changing up in low gears than higher ones. For example, changing up from 2nd to 3rd you lose about 2000 revs (and presumably 1st to 2nd is worse). As the Alfa has peak torque around 3,000 revs then surely this means that it is normal, if wanting to make progress, that you would not change up from 2nd to 3rd until 5000 revs? Changes up from 3rd and 4th can be done at lower revs because fewer revs are lost.

[BertBert]

I made the comment about high revs, but not in the context of using too many, just being picky where Reg had rev-matched on an upshift and set slightly too high revs so they dropped when the clutch was engaged.

I find this approach slightly alien in my years of driving. I prefer to use a blip to do the rev match. I'm finding it hard to explain, but to me the blip is a more fail-safe method even if it is less "pure". If you imagine with a blip your revs are going to span the right rev matching point. It then feels more natural to me to catch the right point with the clutch using the timing of the engaging of the clutch.

Using Reg's method of holding the right revs with the throttle and engaging the clutch, it is very obvious when it is not spot on (as the revs move from the held point as the clutch engages).

Obviously I am justifying to myself why I feel comfortable with the known and uncomfortable with the unknown!

Also it plays to a theory I have espoused on a few occasions. And my theory (ahem) is this...that a dinosaur is very thin at one end, fat in the middle and thin at the other end. Whoops wrong sketch!

So my theory is actually this...one of the influences of roadcraft is not an optimisation for safety and progress, but an optimisation for testability. As an examiner, it is crystal clear how good Reg is at his method of rev matching (by observing the revs). It's much harder to examine the mechanism I am used to.

I better be off now as I am drivelling on.

Bert
PS I am a great fan of using LOTS of revs in the right circs!

[WhoseGeneration]

Well, when I was a spotty faced yuof, with my first car, a MK11 Triumph Spitfire, I had never heard of DDC, either up or down.
So, I just changed, rev matching was ok, 'cos I had been a motorcyclist previously.
Big single, some will know what I mean.
Then the 2nd gear syncro on my car went awol.
So, I rebuilt the 'box, renewing all synchros.
A work colleague then expained DDC to me.
Perhaps I'm wrong but I've used DDC, off and on, ever since, although what I do is sort of "play around" with gearchanging.
Used DDC for my IAM test, no comment from Examiner.