Controlling A Slide In A RWD Car
Discussion
Bit of a basic problem in this thread.
The point of Advanced Driving, upon Road or Track, is to not ever get into the situation where a slide develops.
Controlled drift on Track, Scandinavian Flick on the Stages, for the requisite vehicles, ok.
Then there's the response required for the particular vehicle, FWD, RWD, AWD and any specific tendencies for the model one is piloting.
Then, because such situations should, on Road at least, be very rare if one is driving in any responsible manner, the question is how to be able to deal with such if it should occur.
In an analytical, calm manner.
Can only mean regular practise in a safe environment?
How many of us do that, especially as it invariably involves cost?
The point of Advanced Driving, upon Road or Track, is to not ever get into the situation where a slide develops.
Controlled drift on Track, Scandinavian Flick on the Stages, for the requisite vehicles, ok.
Then there's the response required for the particular vehicle, FWD, RWD, AWD and any specific tendencies for the model one is piloting.
Then, because such situations should, on Road at least, be very rare if one is driving in any responsible manner, the question is how to be able to deal with such if it should occur.
In an analytical, calm manner.
Can only mean regular practise in a safe environment?
How many of us do that, especially as it invariably involves cost?
WhoseGeneration said:
the question is how to be able to deal with such if it should occur.
In an analytical, calm manner.
Can only mean regular practise in a safe environment?
Rather depends how likely it is that you will find yourself in these situations. If you have just splashed your pension fund on a new rwd sports car then it is probably rather important that you develop the skills and reactions necessary to keep it under control and regain control if the unexpected happens. If you only drive a FWD car, there's really no need.In an analytical, calm manner.
Can only mean regular practise in a safe environment?
If the only driving you do is pootling to the shops there's no point learning how to handle a power slide. If you're going out on a race track (or in the habit of driving too fast off it), you'd be well advised to understand the theory and practice of controlling the car you're in. In particular, rather than fine-tuning scandinavian flicks and power drifts so on, you're be better off thinking through the possible consequences of losing control (power slide, out braking, understeer, over steer, drift etc) and deciding how you ought to deal with them. It's not the sort of thing you will have time to think about when it happens, your responses need to have been prepared in advance.
GreenV8S said:
WhoseGeneration said:
the question is how to be able to deal with such if it should occur.
In an analytical, calm manner.
Can only mean regular practise in a safe environment?
Rather depends how likely it is that you will find yourself in these situations. If you have just splashed your pension fund on a new rwd sports car then it is probably rather important that you develop the skills and reactions necessary to keep it under control and regain control if the unexpected happens. If you only drive a FWD car, there's really no need.In an analytical, calm manner.
Can only mean regular practise in a safe environment?
If the only driving you do is pootling to the shops there's no point learning how to handle a power slide. If you're going out on a race track (or in the habit of driving too fast off it), you'd be well advised to understand the theory and practice of controlling the car you're in. In particular, rather than fine-tuning scandinavian flicks and power drifts so on, you're be better off thinking through the possible consequences of losing control (power slide, out braking, understeer, over steer, drift etc) and deciding how you ought to deal with them. It's not the sort of thing you will have time to think about when it happens, your responses need to have been prepared in advance.
"Pootling to the shops" on an icy Winter's morning can initiate a slide, albeit low power, whatever drive configuration.
I think all should have some offroad experience of difficult conditions.
I am reminded of my Dentist and his Classic 911, written off at 30 mph on a large roundabout, diesel spill he thought.
A teacher friend in Devon who described driving to work one morning, in snow, and seeing other members of staff's cars buried in the hedges along the single lane roads.
How does the basic test of driving competence prepare people for these situations?
Edited by WhoseGeneration on Monday 3rd September 22:57
Lovesmedifflocks said:
Also, actually increasing the length of the slide would have made for a smoother correction, as opposed to it "bouncing" the body weight one way then the other.
I think Snells problem could have been with a number of things1) Deliberately initiating a slide on public roads
2) Prolonging the slide rather than bringing the vehicle "under control" asap
3) (dare I say it) "Advanced Driver" only having 11 posts in 1 months, which as we all know means that he doesn't have any real knowlidge to share....
I've only got a problem with two of these points....
Lovesmedifflocks said:
Schnell, I'm confused as to why you are having a go at Advanceddriver, he (or she!) has just given the perfect description on how to control the slide? Am I missing something here?
Read again what "Advanced Driver" had to say:AdvancedDriver said:
In a RWD drive car you would apply the power to initiate the slide, then apply some corrective lock (initial over-correction can be avoided by letting the wheel slide though your hands and the front caster will point the wheels in about the right direction).
Once you are at the balance point you can increase speed and slip angle and then see how many laps of the roundabout you can do. Easy.
If as I suspect you prefer to stop the slide rather than enjoy it, then it depends. RWD cars can lift off oversteer (quite considerably as the engine provides a reverse torque, like gently applying just the rear brakes). So you find alot of accidents with RWD cars where the in-experienced user feels a slight slide, lifts off totaly and steers too much into the slide, leading to a larger slide the other way and an impact with some street furniture!
In that situation applying some power to weight up the rear and a little corrective lock would have been much better. Nothing beats some practice though.....find a wet field!
Now tell me you cannot see anything wrong with that sentiment?Once you are at the balance point you can increase speed and slip angle and then see how many laps of the roundabout you can do. Easy.
If as I suspect you prefer to stop the slide rather than enjoy it, then it depends. RWD cars can lift off oversteer (quite considerably as the engine provides a reverse torque, like gently applying just the rear brakes). So you find alot of accidents with RWD cars where the in-experienced user feels a slight slide, lifts off totaly and steers too much into the slide, leading to a larger slide the other way and an impact with some street furniture!
In that situation applying some power to weight up the rear and a little corrective lock would have been much better. Nothing beats some practice though.....find a wet field!
Ruling out the simple fact that "Advanced Driver" (are you starting to see the irony of his username) is propagating dangerous driving in an advanced driving forum (which I am sure was intentional), he has also failed to grasp the concept of actually controlling a slide properly, whether intentionally provoked or not. I suspect you are acutely aware of what is wrong with his argument and have asked the question simply to provoke a response, so I shan't give you the satisfaction of biting
All I will say, is that the next time you or "Advanced Driver" provoke a slide, let go of the steering wheel and see what happens...WeirdNeville said:
Lovesmedifflocks said:
Also, actually increasing the length of the slide would have made for a smoother correction, as opposed to it "bouncing" the body weight one way then the other.
I think Snells problem could have been with a number of things1) Deliberately initiating a slide on public roads
2) Prolonging the slide rather than bringing the vehicle "under control" asap
3) (dare I say it) "Advanced Driver" only having 11 posts in 1 months, which as we all know means that he doesn't have any real knowlidge to share....
I've only got a problem with two of these points....
If he was a genuine contributer to this forum (i.e not a 12 year old boy), then he'd have something more constructive to add than 'lapping roundabouts'.
I suspect there is a forum out there in interweb land full of adolescent teenagers having a laugh at 'those stupid guys on PH who take driving seriously'. Hence the sudden influx of churlish posts form new members (I use that term loosely), and dare I say it, stupid questions to stupid answers - Mr Lovesmedifflocks?
Now dont get me wrong, I love driving as much as the next person and particularly enjoy making full use of my cars' drivetrain layout
, but as the years have gone by, I'm now mindful of the fact that hoooning is more for the track, as opposed to Macdonalds car park 
Despite the fact that I'm still only in my early twenties, I take pride in the notion that I should aim to perfect my driving skills (both on the road and track) and not put other road-users lives in danger by driving like a prick.HTH
Schnell said:
All I will say, is that the next time you or "Advanced Driver" provoke a slide, let go of the steering wheel and see what happens...
This happened Schnell: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KuMwduVECuMInitiate the slide, let the wheel slip though your hands. The front caster aligns the wheel for you. You should try it one day...
advanceddriver said:
Schnell said:
All I will say, is that the next time you or "Advanced Driver" provoke a slide, let go of the steering wheel and see what happens...
This happened Schnell: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KuMwduVECuMInitiate the slide, let the wheel slip though your hands. The front caster aligns the wheel for you. You should try it one day...
It might work, it might not. On mine for example it won't apply the steering fast enough to catch the slide. More worrying IMO if you use this technique to 'control' the car is that you have immediately lost any knowledge of where the wheels are pointing. Some people also allow the wheel to slide through their hands as they straighten up out of corners because they're too lazy to feed it properly, and I don't like that either. People do it, and they get away without any particular problem, but it's just not a very good technique and is more error prone than steering 'properly'.
I would agree that it's a technique best reserved when instinct tells you you're not naturally going to save the car, and isn't something I would employ on regular track days where controlled sliding (if only i could ..) are part of the appeal .. but it is a technique employed by all the top drifters when they have to get a lot of lock applied quickly.
If your car doesn't respond to it then obviously it's not a very useful tool for you, but on most cars it works very well. So not the obvious choice except for a top drifter maybe, but a useful tool if your car will allow it. It's definately not a reason to become sloppy in driving habits though, more a fall-back / safety net for the rest of us
If your car doesn't respond to it then obviously it's not a very useful tool for you, but on most cars it works very well. So not the obvious choice except for a top drifter maybe, but a useful tool if your car will allow it. It's definately not a reason to become sloppy in driving habits though, more a fall-back / safety net for the rest of us
Schnell, I find it highly ironic that you are infact the one who is incorrect but are still adamant otherwise. I used to instruct on TrackSport Drift Days at Oulton Park, the easiest way to control oversteer, especially with something like a clutch kick, is to let go of the steering wheel. It is a technique which works on 99% of cars, from FR to MR to RR.
I believe that AdvancedDriver's statement "see how many laps you can do" was written in a very tongue-in-cheek fashion, you may not agree with his sense of humour but his description on how to control the slide was perfect.
And after all, the topic title IS "Controlling a slide in a RWD car"...
I believe that AdvancedDriver's statement "see how many laps you can do" was written in a very tongue-in-cheek fashion, you may not agree with his sense of humour but his description on how to control the slide was perfect.
And after all, the topic title IS "Controlling a slide in a RWD car"...
Lovesmedifflocks said:
Schnell, I find it highly ironic that you are infact the one who is incorrect but are still adamant otherwise. I used to instruct on TrackSport Drift Days at Oulton Park, the easiest way to control oversteer, especially with something like a clutch kick, is to let go of the steering wheel. It is a technique which works on 99% of cars, from FR to MR to RR.
I believe that AdvancedDriver's statement "see how many laps you can do" was written in a very tongue-in-cheek fashion, you may not agree with his sense of humour but his description on how to control the slide was perfect.
And after all, the topic title IS "Controlling a slide in a RWD car"...
I agree, i drove a track day in a very shoddy E30 325i, i think some DIY work on rust repair by a previous owner had resulted in some rather interesting front end geometry, whereby it did not appear to have much caster (or responded as if it didnt) it had a very slow rack and the steering was pretty heavy to compound matters...I believe that AdvancedDriver's statement "see how many laps you can do" was written in a very tongue-in-cheek fashion, you may not agree with his sense of humour but his description on how to control the slide was perfect.
And after all, the topic title IS "Controlling a slide in a RWD car"...
This car had to be the most uncontrolable and lethal RWD car on the track that day! (the tyres were not very good plus it was nice and slippy!)
The lack of caster and therefore the automatic straightening of the steering made controlling the car very very difficult, and almost impossible to predict the correct steering angle input to balance the oversteer.
My current car has a much more user friendly steering geometry set up it would appear, and one of the only ways to accurately predict and apply steering inputs to control slides is through the 'feel' in the steering. By loosening your grip on the wheel and letting it slide through your hands, it results in a much smoother correction, rather than trying to second guess the lock required to correct the slide and correcting the slide in a series of 'bites'.
The only difficulty with the technique is having to wind off the lock quick enough to avoid a nice bit tank slapper. However this is where the throttle control also comes in, if you feather the throttle when sliding (you are not looking to slow the rear wheels to a stop but rather equalise their speed and the rolling speed at which they should be turning) and then gently increase the throttle after you have 'caught' the slide then the speed at which you have to unwind the lock is greatly reduced (if you have enough power) and you can avoid the tank slapper and subsequent spin (a lot of the time!)
Try driving go-karts with differing front end geometries;
less caster = less steering effort required but also less feel. It can be difficult to guage the steering inputs required.
More caster = heavier steering but good feel and easier to correct slides, to the point where a quater turn or opposite lock and slight drift on the exit of corners becomes the most predictable and fastest way to exit the corners (NOT applicable in every case before people jump down my throats!).
Ok, I had envisaged that the thread would take this direction.
Lets first of all get one thing clear. Track driving and road driving are completely different disciplines, requiring different skills and techniques for each.
I am fully aware that letting go of the wheel to stabalise a slide is a technique taught in drifiting etc. I am also a huge fan of Keiichi Tsuchiya and am in awe of his ability, but let us not forget, that his cars are specifically set up for the track. This is the key component which allows and encourages the aforementined technique to be used on track (and therefore a track car) but not on the road IMO.
If you watch Keiichi Tsuchiya or any other similarly gifted drifter, in a car set up for the road, you will see that their technique for controlling the slide on the road, differs from that to which they use on the track - mainly not completely letting go of the wheel, but instead keeping a firm grasp both literally and metaphoriacally, so that they can alter the balance of the car in accordance with the changes in the road.
but remember, this is about road driving, not the track. As an instructor you will surely agree with me that you apply one disipline for the track and another for the road. Afterall, I cant see the IAM propogating the 'clutch kick' as an effective method for negotiating corners...
Morover, you will surely concur, that the road is a completely different environment to a smooth and predictable track. Therefore a slight change in the camber of the road (or a bump/rut) has the potential to completely alter the balance of the car. This is why I'd rather have hy hands on the wheel (and know where the front wheels are) if I ever found myself in a situation where the car was in a slide on the road.
RE 'Advanceddrivers' comments, this is a forum about advanced driving, not Macdonalds car park hooliganism. I didn't detect any humour in his statement which is why I reacted accordingly. I come to this section to learn and develop my road driving skills not to make sartcastic comments. Sorry. IMO the Pie & Piston is the place for that.
In summary therefore, I do not see any irony in my original sentiments. Perhaps you could clarify?
Lets first of all get one thing clear. Track driving and road driving are completely different disciplines, requiring different skills and techniques for each.
I am fully aware that letting go of the wheel to stabalise a slide is a technique taught in drifiting etc. I am also a huge fan of Keiichi Tsuchiya and am in awe of his ability, but let us not forget, that his cars are specifically set up for the track. This is the key component which allows and encourages the aforementined technique to be used on track (and therefore a track car) but not on the road IMO.
Advanceddriver said:
This happened Schnell: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KuMwduVECuM
Initiate the slide, let the wheel slip though your hands. The front caster aligns the wheel for you. You should try it one day...
Why are you trying to argue a case for which I fully support for the track?Initiate the slide, let the wheel slip though your hands. The front caster aligns the wheel for you. You should try it one day...
If you watch Keiichi Tsuchiya or any other similarly gifted drifter, in a car set up for the road, you will see that their technique for controlling the slide on the road, differs from that to which they use on the track - mainly not completely letting go of the wheel, but instead keeping a firm grasp both literally and metaphoriacally, so that they can alter the balance of the car in accordance with the changes in the road.
trackcar said:
letting go of the wheel is one (of many) techniques practised on high performance driving / drift / car control courses .. the caster self-corrects (for the most part) a violent slide far quicker than you can .. in fact in a violent tank-slapper of fishtailing tail whips letting go of the wheel is one of the most effective forms of getting the barge under control ..
I completely agree, but again, this is best applied to the track. I'm sure you'll agree, that not all road cars have an aggressive enough castor angle to allow you to do that on the road, as GreenV8S concurs:GreenV8S said:
It might work, it might not. On mine for example it won't apply the steering fast enough to catch the slide. More worrying IMO if you use this technique to 'control' the car is that you have immediately lost any knowledge of where the wheels are pointing. Some people also allow the wheel to slide through their hands as they straighten up out of corners because they're too lazy to feed it properly, and I don't like that either. People do it, and they get away without any particular problem, but it's just not a very good technique and is more error prone than steering 'properly'.
Now on my car (again a road car) the castor angle is not sufficient to allow me to let go of the wheel to catch the slide. Instead, I feed the wheel so that I know exactly where the front wheels are. lovesmedifflocks said:
Schnell, I find it highly ironic that you are infact the one who is incorrect but are still adamant otherwise. I used to instruct on TrackSport Drift Days at Oulton Park, the easiest way to control oversteer, especially with something like a clutch kick, is to let go of the steering wheel. It is a technique which works on 99% of cars, from FR to MR to RR.
I believe that AdvancedDriver's statement "see how many laps you can do" was written in a very tongue-in-cheek fashion, you may not agree with his sense of humour but his description on how to control the slide was perfect.
And after all, the topic title IS "Controlling a slide in a RWD car"...
Completely agree! I believe that AdvancedDriver's statement "see how many laps you can do" was written in a very tongue-in-cheek fashion, you may not agree with his sense of humour but his description on how to control the slide was perfect.
And after all, the topic title IS "Controlling a slide in a RWD car"...
but remember, this is about road driving, not the track. As an instructor you will surely agree with me that you apply one disipline for the track and another for the road. Afterall, I cant see the IAM propogating the 'clutch kick' as an effective method for negotiating corners...Morover, you will surely concur, that the road is a completely different environment to a smooth and predictable track. Therefore a slight change in the camber of the road (or a bump/rut) has the potential to completely alter the balance of the car. This is why I'd rather have hy hands on the wheel (and know where the front wheels are) if I ever found myself in a situation where the car was in a slide on the road.
RE 'Advanceddrivers' comments, this is a forum about advanced driving, not Macdonalds car park hooliganism. I didn't detect any humour in his statement which is why I reacted accordingly. I come to this section to learn and develop my road driving skills not to make sartcastic comments. Sorry. IMO the Pie & Piston is the place for that.
In summary therefore, I do not see any irony in my original sentiments. Perhaps you could clarify?
OK, I originally started off my drifting on the road, quiet roundabouts etc, which I know isn't the cleverest or the safest thing to do, but hey, I was younger then! The technique is the same no matter what the surface or road conditions, spinning the wheel by letting go is the easiest and safest way to control it - as on 99% of cars it is going to work, you don't need to know how far to turn the wheel and hence you are more likely to "catch it". I can assure you that this is the case. It is the ANGLE of the drift which you need to keep an eye on on the road, to allow for diesel, change of surface etc.
The irony comment was related to this - "All I will say, is that the next time you or "Advanced Driver" provoke a slide, let go of the steering wheel and see what happens..." & "he has also failed to grasp the concept of actually controlling a slide properly, whether intentionally provoked or not" as they are both incorrect statements. I'm not having a go, after all, this is the point of the forum, to learn techniques and improve your driving, but when someone comes back with info, which everyone has so far agreed with, calling them "a 12 year old" isn't the best of responses.
If my car were to unexpectedly slide now, I would instinctivly let go of the wheel, there is less chance of overcorrection, which believe me is the most common problem with people learning to drift, as well as not applying positive lock as it begins to grip again. I would lift off completely, as keeping throttle would exagerrate the slide, I would wait until it started to regain grip, apply moderate throttle and extend the length of the drift, giving myself time to slow the whole process down, apply positive lock and control the drift under my terms.
The irony comment was related to this - "All I will say, is that the next time you or "Advanced Driver" provoke a slide, let go of the steering wheel and see what happens..." & "he has also failed to grasp the concept of actually controlling a slide properly, whether intentionally provoked or not" as they are both incorrect statements. I'm not having a go, after all, this is the point of the forum, to learn techniques and improve your driving, but when someone comes back with info, which everyone has so far agreed with, calling them "a 12 year old" isn't the best of responses.
If my car were to unexpectedly slide now, I would instinctivly let go of the wheel, there is less chance of overcorrection, which believe me is the most common problem with people learning to drift, as well as not applying positive lock as it begins to grip again. I would lift off completely, as keeping throttle would exagerrate the slide, I would wait until it started to regain grip, apply moderate throttle and extend the length of the drift, giving myself time to slow the whole process down, apply positive lock and control the drift under my terms.
Whether you're holding onto the wheel or letting go, the most important thing IMO is to start applying the correction quickly enough. A few tenths of a second can make a huge difference to the amount of correction required.
(For what it's worth I'm still not happy with the principle of letting go of the steering on public roads, maybe it works for you but I don't think it's a good technique to recommend people to use to keep/recover control in a slide.
(For what it's worth I'm still not happy with the principle of letting go of the steering on public roads, maybe it works for you but I don't think it's a good technique to recommend people to use to keep/recover control in a slide.
find out if you haev a local motor club- then get down to one of their driver-handling/autotest days. you will elarn far more about car control than you ever will be reading about it.
I started last year and after quite a lot of practice in my mx-5 i am now quite happy to control the car in both understeer/oversteer situations at both high and low speed. one of the most useful clubs i haev ever joined!
I started last year and after quite a lot of practice in my mx-5 i am now quite happy to control the car in both understeer/oversteer situations at both high and low speed. one of the most useful clubs i haev ever joined!
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