Controlling A Slide In A RWD Car
Discussion
advanceddriver said:
Oh dear Schnell, clutching at straws now somewhat aren't we. Shame you resorted to childish insults. Especially as it turned out I was correct after all!
I hadn't realised quite how young you were, maybe you should respect your elders
What can I say? You write in a single-minded manner which entices frustration. At no point have I insulted anyone though.I hadn't realised quite how young you were, maybe you should respect your elders
However in another thread:
Advancedriver said:
CommanderJameson said:
No. You do not change gear as well as this man. End of.
Yes we are all in awe of this amazing feat.....Up to this point I have been trying to change gear using a roll of masking tape in my kitchen........it turns out you actually need to use your arm in a car!
Thank you very much for taking the time out to make this highly informative video which is surely worthy of inclusion in this "Advanced Driving" forum.....usually here people simply discuss how to drive around a corner seraching for a mythical vanishing point or overtaking a car without driving into the side of it.
You are all amazing!
Advancedriver said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
So tell me - how could I improve my gearchanges?
By never recording them on video ever again!Advanceddriver said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Can I politely suggest you read some more of my articles before commenting further?
Just search under my username and read two posts that I've started in this thread.
If you do that, and you don't learn at least one useful thing, then I'll take your criticism on board and I'll stop posting.
But you have to be honest in your reply.
I've read the previous "Zen art of gear changing"........for those with less time than me I will sumariseJust search under my username and read two posts that I've started in this thread.
If you do that, and you don't learn at least one useful thing, then I'll take your criticism on board and I'll stop posting.
But you have to be honest in your reply.
If you match the engine revs to appropriate road speed you too could be a police driving god!
Advanceddriver said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
advanceddriver said:
Haha you really are a policeman aren't you!
Haha you really only joined the site to post your inane drivel in this thread didn't you?
However, I apologise if you feel that I've been a little more outspoken about it.advanceddriver said:
Maybe you should become and Advanced Driver, then you would understand. Until then you might just have to accept I am better.
What puzzles me more, is that being as qualified to give instruction on the matter as you clearly are, you still propagate a method which I am sure is not supported by the IAM.As you will see, I agree with the sentiments of you and others when the situation turns to the track, but alas the track is not the environment that this thread relates to - hence the reason I have disagreed with you and others from the start.
I would be very interested to hear the thoughts from the likes of Reg Local, who as I'm sure you all will agree is more than qualified to provide us with a definite answer. If he agrees with the method you propose for the road then I am indeed in the wrong and will happily stand corrected. However, with the small amount of road-driving tuition that I have had, I belive that the IAM will side with the notion that letting go of the wheel to deal with a road-based slide is not advised, unless of course I have paid good money for duff information
I am not saying that it simply doesnt work, but as I've maintained from the start, there is a big difference between encouraging a slide and correcting one. From what I can see, you stand firmly in the former camp, which in my opinion is not something that should be encouraged on the road.As an aside, I always respect my 'elders', just not those who deliberately provoke others by way of 'childish' comment
HTH
I am sure that IAM will advise not letting go of the steering wheel, even though this is the easiest method. You would have to practice sliding a LOT more to be able to catch serious oversteer, I promise you that you are more likely to save it by letting go and re-grabbing it again than by feeding it through. Track or road.
If you drove exactly how IAM would like you to drive, it is undoubtably the best way to go. However they are still governed by the law, if we all drove as if we were on our driving tests then there wouldn't be as many problems as there are now, but the thing is that we don't. The situation/topic title we are talking about now would never have happened if the person driving was going slower and driving as they "are supposed to", but the fact of the matter is, they weren't, just like 99% of people on the road at the moment.
You will have to take my word for the letting go of the wheel bit, everyone has a different opinion, however I would say I spend more time sideways than most and whether or not it is in harmony with the words of IAM, I promise letting go of the wheel is you safest bet to get out of the slide.
Cheers
If you drove exactly how IAM would like you to drive, it is undoubtably the best way to go. However they are still governed by the law, if we all drove as if we were on our driving tests then there wouldn't be as many problems as there are now, but the thing is that we don't. The situation/topic title we are talking about now would never have happened if the person driving was going slower and driving as they "are supposed to", but the fact of the matter is, they weren't, just like 99% of people on the road at the moment.
You will have to take my word for the letting go of the wheel bit, everyone has a different opinion, however I would say I spend more time sideways than most and whether or not it is in harmony with the words of IAM, I promise letting go of the wheel is you safest bet to get out of the slide.
Cheers
_Neal_ said:
IAM does (in theory) as it's in roadcraft. I would've thought Rospa did too. Local IAM groups sometimes organise skid-pan sessions, but that's about it for practical lessons on it.
Interesting debate on what the Advanced Driver approach is to skid control. Now if the Advanced Driver club we are talking about is epitomised by IAM and Rospa, then surely the answer to the question of how does the Advanced Driver deal with a RWD skid is a shrug and the response "dunno mate, read about it in a book once"! I would have expected it to be dealt with in more detail!Bert
The general approach from the advanced driving fraternity is not to get yourself in a situation where you're in a slide in the first place. It's not difficult to drive so you don't skid.
If you look at it the other way in that you've messed it up and ARE skidding then what you read in a book or practiced for 20 minutes on a skidpan at 15mph are unlikely to be much use to you in any case.
Repeated attendance on limit handling type days will however have a significant effect on the outcome of a skidding moment, should you have one on the road.
If you look at it the other way in that you've messed it up and ARE skidding then what you read in a book or practiced for 20 minutes on a skidpan at 15mph are unlikely to be much use to you in any case.
Repeated attendance on limit handling type days will however have a significant effect on the outcome of a skidding moment, should you have one on the road.
hardboiledPhil said:
Repeated attendance on limit handling type days will however have a significant effect on the outcome of a skidding moment, should you have one on the road.
I suspect they also increase substantially the risk that the skidding moment will occur, due to raised confidence.I think the answer to that is yes AND no.
Increased confidence could be an issue but if you have developed the skills to detect what the car is doing and adjust your inputs appropriately then I see no reason why you would be any more at risk overall. Clearly attitude would be a large determinant of what happens, probably more so than outright skills.
I'd rather passenger someone with someone quicker knowing that they have good car control skills than slower with someone who only has a minimal concept of what they are doing/what to do if it all goes wrong.
Then again I am picky who I passenger with!
Increased confidence could be an issue but if you have developed the skills to detect what the car is doing and adjust your inputs appropriately then I see no reason why you would be any more at risk overall. Clearly attitude would be a large determinant of what happens, probably more so than outright skills.
I'd rather passenger someone with someone quicker knowing that they have good car control skills than slower with someone who only has a minimal concept of what they are doing/what to do if it all goes wrong.
Then again I am picky who I passenger with!
BertBert said:
Interesting debate on what the Advanced Driver approach is to skid control. Now if the Advanced Driver club we are talking about is epitomised by IAM and Rospa, then surely the answer to the question of how does the Advanced Driver deal with a RWD skid is a shrug and the response "dunno mate, read about it in a book once"! I would have expected it to be dealt with in more detail!
Bert
I don't think that's really fair. I would say that the majority of advanced drivers (and pretty much all observers) are themselves keen "performance" drivers and as such have more than a "dunno mate, read it in a book once" attitude to limit handling. The theory of what to do in oversteer/understeer situations is dealt with in detail in Roadcraft, but I don't think for the £85 it costs to do the IAM course you can realistically expect to do any practical limit handling work. Bert
As I say though, many advanced drivers will go and do limit handling/skid pan work independently, because they are interested in that kind of thing.
Personally, I haven't found doing a limit handling course made me more confident to risk getting out of shape on the roads - more the reverse, because I found how that even if you can correct the slide, it takes space (like on an airfield or track) which on the road you don't have. My motivation for doing the course was mainly to find out what not to do, and partly to find out what skills you needed in order to correct a slide if it did (unfortunately) happen on the road.
GreenV8S said:
I suspect they also increase substantially the risk that the skidding moment will occur, due to raised confidence.
This entirely depends on the person's attitude. If they are learning the technique to drift on the road, perhaps yes, but if, as most do, they are learning how to steer and use the throttle at the limit of grip they will a) become more aware of the feedback through the steering wheel and other indicators of an impending slide (tyre noise, feeling through the seat of the pants) and as a result b) act sooner to avoid getting into a full blown slide and finally c) if the worst happens be well prepared to deal with it.The great majority of drivers drive without any real awareness of slip angles, of what they are feeling through the steering wheel and generally what is happening dynamically to the car and at the tyre contact patches. Raising awareness of these areas, and best of all actually experiencing these at or near the limit in safety, is an excellent way of helping someone avoid a skid in the first place (but of course is no substitute for great roadcraft!).
Of course, as with most skills, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Often I come across "advanced drivers" who believe they know it all, rather than accepting that learning to drive well is a life long pursuit. I like to drive with people who have the right attitude first and foremost, and then those who have pursued the art of driving in every form.
On a separate note, I note that advanceddriver did make one good point on page 2. He commented on the torque effect of backing off the throttle when driving a rear wheel drive car. Yesterday I was at MIRA on the wet grip circles in a powerful rear wheel drive car. When drifting at the limit, it was possible to just step over the limit of rear grip by backing off even slightly. It was a good demonstration that simple mantras (eg, remove the cause of the slide, such as relax pressure on the gas pedal) aren't the whole answer (and I realise they aren't meant to be). In reality, there is absolutely no substitute for experiential learning and I for one say hang the cost.
Kind regards
Steve
_Neal_ said:
BertBert said:
Interesting debate on what the Advanced Driver approach is to skid control. Now if the Advanced Driver club we are talking about is epitomised by IAM and Rospa, then surely the answer to the question of how does the Advanced Driver deal with a RWD skid is a shrug and the response "dunno mate, read about it in a book once"! I would have expected it to be dealt with in more detail!
Bert
I don't think that's really fair. I would say that the majority of advanced drivers (and pretty much all observers) are themselves keen "performance" drivers and as such have more than a "dunno mate, read it in a book once" attitude to limit handling. The theory of what to do in oversteer/understeer situations is dealt with in detail in Roadcraft, but I don't think for the £85 it costs to do the IAM course you can realistically expect to do any practical limit handling work. Bert
As I say though, many advanced drivers will go and do limit handling/skid pan work independently, because they are interested in that kind of thing.
Personally, I haven't found doing a limit handling course made me more confident to risk getting out of shape on the roads - more the reverse, because I found how that even if you can correct the slide, it takes space (like on an airfield or track) which on the road you don't have. My motivation for doing the course was mainly to find out what not to do, and partly to find out what skills you needed in order to correct a slide if it did (unfortunately) happen on the road.
Bert
advanceddriver said:
hardboiledPhil said:
The general approach from the advanced driving fraternity is not to get yourself in a situation where you're in a slide in the first place. It's not difficult to drive so you don't skid.
Ice, Diesel?I prefer to know how to control the inevitable slides.
Ice - well it's pretty obvious when that's going to be around and to quote some guy at a skidpan I visited in the midlands several years ago - "you can always tell a skidpan instructor in the ice/snow as they'll be the slowest drivers around". Point being despite the skills of controlling a slide they chose not to get into difficulty in the first place. Diesel - well tell tale signs are there but it's something I do worry about considerably more when on my motorbike.
Interesting point about the torque causing a loss of grip. I generally assume that it's weight transfer causing issues on a lifted throttle when clearly if the tyre is at the limit of its grip and is forced to brake as well then it will exceed its limits.
""The general approach from the advanced driving fraternity is not to get yourself in a situation where you're in a slide in the first place. It's not difficult to drive so you don't skid.""
I'm with Phil...done the Millbrook bit with John Lyon...done the Essex Police skid pan...done the driving in Scotland for 30 years bit...
Now telling my Associates, forget skid pan training for a half hour...Sweden and Canada reckon it is of negative value...Police drivers might do a WEEK on the pan and still lose it when the sh1t hits the fan.
LOOK for diesel on the roads - especially near fuel stations - LOOK at changes in the road surface - LOOK for rubber marks on the road...THINK, if you have 2 sweaters and an anorak on...the roads might be slippy?
But, if you REALLY want to skid...look only as far as the end of your bonnet...forget the two second rule...let your tyres wear down to the 1.6mm legal limit and drive like a frigging numpty in wet or icy weather.
BOF
I'm with Phil...done the Millbrook bit with John Lyon...done the Essex Police skid pan...done the driving in Scotland for 30 years bit...
Now telling my Associates, forget skid pan training for a half hour...Sweden and Canada reckon it is of negative value...Police drivers might do a WEEK on the pan and still lose it when the sh1t hits the fan.
LOOK for diesel on the roads - especially near fuel stations - LOOK at changes in the road surface - LOOK for rubber marks on the road...THINK, if you have 2 sweaters and an anorak on...the roads might be slippy?
But, if you REALLY want to skid...look only as far as the end of your bonnet...forget the two second rule...let your tyres wear down to the 1.6mm legal limit and drive like a frigging numpty in wet or icy weather.
BOF
Edited by BOF on Tuesday 11th September 20:15
hardboiledPhil said:
Interesting point about the torque causing a loss of grip. I generally assume that it's weight transfer causing issues on a lifted throttle when clearly if the tyre is at the limit of its grip and is forced to brake as well then it will exceed its limits.
No, there are two effects (longitudinal weight transfer, and what I'd sum up as the 'circle of friction' effects i.e. the effect on the thrust vector of acceleration/braking applied to the wheel).These two tend to oppose each other under acceleration with the weight transfer dominating at low acceleration levels and promoting understeer; at higher acceleration levels (if you have enough torque available relative to the available grip) the circle of friction effects tend to dominate and promote oversteer.
Under engine braking both the two effects both promote oversteer which is why lift off oversteer is such a problem in rwd cars and why engine braking can be so dangerous.
Can i drag things in a tangential direction or should i start a new thread? My experience with RWD slides is as mentioned - release the steering and it seems to self correct to some extent, and that backing off too much or too little causes oversteer. However I now have an AWD and this seems to have a mixture of FWD and RWD characteristics (as you might expect) depending on the direction of the wind.
A couple of incidents spring to mind, one (following an ambulance with a family member in, at some pace) where it suffered understeer quite noticably (increasingly with easing off the throttle) until the throttle was planted - as the turbo spooled it seemed to drag its front end round and drive out of it, yet the second was during evasion of an accident where the rear broke away and application of the throttle held the rear out in a lovely slide but removing it snatched the back end back in a jiffy. What are the general thoughts on the control of such a car in these situations. Do they tend to behave like FWD on turn-in and RWD on exit?
I'll start a new thread if its wanted.
A couple of incidents spring to mind, one (following an ambulance with a family member in, at some pace) where it suffered understeer quite noticably (increasingly with easing off the throttle) until the throttle was planted - as the turbo spooled it seemed to drag its front end round and drive out of it, yet the second was during evasion of an accident where the rear broke away and application of the throttle held the rear out in a lovely slide but removing it snatched the back end back in a jiffy. What are the general thoughts on the control of such a car in these situations. Do they tend to behave like FWD on turn-in and RWD on exit?
I'll start a new thread if its wanted.
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