New Car Control / Driving Techniques website
Discussion
I've recently started a new webstite to try and explain the practical aspects to driving quickly on the track with some reference to the road. The site isn't finished yet, and some parts may be a bit controversial, but would appreciate any comments you might have. Please be gentle!
http://www.drivingfast.net
Many thanks
http://www.drivingfast.net
Many thanks
Nice idea, as there's so much rubbish thrown round about car control.
I reckon the weight transfer section could be explained better and in a more step by step manner. The section on oversteer is also unnecessarily complicated - try just talking about the two causes of oversteer: weight transfer and power application, that's a simple and good place to start.
The other thing is that the whole subject of car control is best explained in a step by step manner, rather than in a pick and choose website style. Not sure how to get round that one.
Also, the video of heel and toe shows what you want on the first downchange, but the second actually shows double declutching
I reckon the weight transfer section could be explained better and in a more step by step manner. The section on oversteer is also unnecessarily complicated - try just talking about the two causes of oversteer: weight transfer and power application, that's a simple and good place to start.
The other thing is that the whole subject of car control is best explained in a step by step manner, rather than in a pick and choose website style. Not sure how to get round that one.
Also, the video of heel and toe shows what you want on the first downchange, but the second actually shows double declutching
AbarthChris said:
RobM77 said:
Also, the video of heel and toe shows what you want on the first downchange, but the second actually shows double declutching
Yeah, but the heel and toe refers to the right foot's actions so it does show what it needs to...RobM77 said:
I reckon the weight transfer section could be explained better and in a more step by step manner. The section on oversteer is also unnecessarily complicated - try just talking about the two causes of oversteer: weight transfer and power application, that's a simple and good place to start.
The other thing is that the whole subject of car control is best explained in a step by step manner, rather than in a pick and choose website style. Not sure how to get round that one.
Also, the video of heel and toe shows what you want on the first downchange, but the second actually shows double declutching
Thanks for your comments!The other thing is that the whole subject of car control is best explained in a step by step manner, rather than in a pick and choose website style. Not sure how to get round that one.
Also, the video of heel and toe shows what you want on the first downchange, but the second actually shows double declutching
Ha - yes the oversteer section does rabbit on a bit too much, got a bit carried away! Will go through and try and make everthing more of a staged process, good idea.
As for the vid - good point, I missed that, but it's hard to find little snippets from you tube which illustrate the point well!
jonnogibbo said:
RobM77 said:
I reckon the weight transfer section could be explained better and in a more step by step manner. The section on oversteer is also unnecessarily complicated - try just talking about the two causes of oversteer: weight transfer and power application, that's a simple and good place to start.
The other thing is that the whole subject of car control is best explained in a step by step manner, rather than in a pick and choose website style. Not sure how to get round that one.
Also, the video of heel and toe shows what you want on the first downchange, but the second actually shows double declutching
Thanks for your comments!The other thing is that the whole subject of car control is best explained in a step by step manner, rather than in a pick and choose website style. Not sure how to get round that one.
Also, the video of heel and toe shows what you want on the first downchange, but the second actually shows double declutching
Ha - yes the oversteer section does rabbit on a bit too much, got a bit carried away! Will go through and try and make everthing more of a staged process, good idea.
As for the vid - good point, I missed that, but it's hard to find little snippets from you tube which illustrate the point well!
Explaining why cars oversteer and understeer with weight transfer is then easy! Careful of copyright - you could always draw the pictures?Thoroughly enjoyed reading through the whole of your site this lunchtime. You've managed to pick some excellent videos from YouTube. Chris Harris' explanation of left foot braking is superb. I was just in awe of the skills that Ari Vatanen and Walter Rohrl displayed in the two videos you selected.
My only comment, from a complete novices viewpoint, would be to perhaps use traction circles to explain limits of grip? I have found this graphical depiction to really help in my understanding of why a car would lose traction.
My only comment, from a complete novices viewpoint, would be to perhaps use traction circles to explain limits of grip? I have found this graphical depiction to really help in my understanding of why a car would lose traction.
Edited by Phisp on Friday 14th September 13:42
Phisp said:
My only comment, from a complete novices viewpoint, would be to perhaps use traction circles to explain limits of grip? I have found this graphical depiction to really help in my understanding of why a car would lose traction.
Good point, traction circles also help you get people beyond the IAM mantra of 'only do one thing at a time'.Edited by Phisp on Friday 14th September 13:42
Jonogibbo,
I was going to save you the embarrassment of me writing in the public domain, but since you do not allow any other form of contact (your PH profile page does not give details and your settings prevent me from sending you an email), so I have no choice but to say what I need to say here.
I have had a look at your website, and without commenting upon the content here, I would like you to declare details of your background in terms of driving qualifications and where your experience lies. If you are going to publish a website, particularly where driving is concerned, and where that site offers advice and direction concerning how to drive, then you need to qualify your advice by giving details of who and what you are. Your site does not do this, however, I am guessing that what experience you have is track based, something that seems to come out of the way you are talking, in which case I would strongly recommend that you leave any reference to road driving well alone. Track driving and road driving are two totally different animals and the two should never meet.
I will say no more here, but I have left you a comment on your website page that adequately provides details of my opinions.
Jules
I was going to save you the embarrassment of me writing in the public domain, but since you do not allow any other form of contact (your PH profile page does not give details and your settings prevent me from sending you an email), so I have no choice but to say what I need to say here.
I have had a look at your website, and without commenting upon the content here, I would like you to declare details of your background in terms of driving qualifications and where your experience lies. If you are going to publish a website, particularly where driving is concerned, and where that site offers advice and direction concerning how to drive, then you need to qualify your advice by giving details of who and what you are. Your site does not do this, however, I am guessing that what experience you have is track based, something that seems to come out of the way you are talking, in which case I would strongly recommend that you leave any reference to road driving well alone. Track driving and road driving are two totally different animals and the two should never meet.
I will say no more here, but I have left you a comment on your website page that adequately provides details of my opinions.
Jules
Ride Drive said:
Jonogibbo,
I was going to save you the embarrassment of me writing in the public domain, but since you do not allow any other form of contact (your PH profile page does not give details and your settings prevent me from sending you an email), so I have no choice but to say what I need to say here.
I have had a look at your website, and without commenting upon the content here, I would like you to declare details of your background in terms of driving qualifications and where your experience lies. If you are going to publish a website, particularly where driving is concerned, and where that site offers advice and direction concerning how to drive, then you need to qualify your advice by giving details of who and what you are. Your site does not do this, however, I am guessing that what experience you have is track based, something that seems to come out of the way you are talking, in which case I would strongly recommend that you leave any reference to road driving well alone. Track driving and road driving are two totally different animals and the two should never meet.
I will say no more here, but I have left you a comment on your website page that adequately provides details of my opinions.
Jules
Agreed I was going to save you the embarrassment of me writing in the public domain, but since you do not allow any other form of contact (your PH profile page does not give details and your settings prevent me from sending you an email), so I have no choice but to say what I need to say here.
I have had a look at your website, and without commenting upon the content here, I would like you to declare details of your background in terms of driving qualifications and where your experience lies. If you are going to publish a website, particularly where driving is concerned, and where that site offers advice and direction concerning how to drive, then you need to qualify your advice by giving details of who and what you are. Your site does not do this, however, I am guessing that what experience you have is track based, something that seems to come out of the way you are talking, in which case I would strongly recommend that you leave any reference to road driving well alone. Track driving and road driving are two totally different animals and the two should never meet.
I will say no more here, but I have left you a comment on your website page that adequately provides details of my opinions.
Jules
, but I will always defend the fact that, with appropriate restraint, good track techniques make road driving safer. The acts of having the car balanced and driven smoothly make for much safer road driving, as they both raise the speed in all instances where traction will be broken. The restraint bit comes from having the restraint to keep the same speed as everyone else and double your safety, as apposed to increasing your speed and cancelling out the effect!Yep, no problem with that, but the page on cornering is appalling. The advice puts the car straight into the conflict zone and right where Ronnie rep, late for his next appointment, will be drifting to as he is pushing too hard. Smoothness and balance is key to good control, andthe site does actually get this right, but a lot of what is offered is very suspect.
Jules
Jules
Edited by Ride Drive on Wednesday 19th September 10:00
Missed this on Friday but enjoyed reading it today - still not finished!
Really good graphics and well written though as a simple soul I thought the brake pressure graph needed clarification or comparison. Presumably it is to show that the pedal should be applied and released smoothly over a period of time, but I suggest that as you lengthen or shorten the time base you will get a similar profile but a very different effect on the car and passengers.
Really good graphics and well written though as a simple soul I thought the brake pressure graph needed clarification or comparison. Presumably it is to show that the pedal should be applied and released smoothly over a period of time, but I suggest that as you lengthen or shorten the time base you will get a similar profile but a very different effect on the car and passengers.
Hi Julian,
I'm sorry that the site has clearly upset you. The diagram you reference may well be slightly up to misinterpretation and I’ll try and put the record straight. We're simply trying to illustrate that an apex does indeed exist on both the road and the track, and thus parallels can be drawn. I think if you read more of the page and the introduction to road driving you'll see that the main priority of road driving is visibility and the ability to see before you commit to a particular line on a corner. The illustration recommends only bringing the car to an apex near the white lines if you can see that it’s safe to do so, otherwise continue on the original line with the turn in at point B and would not tighten up. If you are travelling so fast on the road that a change in line would be disastrous you’re clearly driving too close to the limit, butif you can see that no articulated lorry is in the road, then bringing your car closer and even over the lines (if it’s legal) is not going to be a problem . Please never position your vehicle in an area which could be unsafe. If you’d like to contact me, I’d invite you to read a bit more of the road section and then email me at Jon@drivingfast.net . I will review it to take on board your comments.
All the best,
Jon
I'm sorry that the site has clearly upset you. The diagram you reference may well be slightly up to misinterpretation and I’ll try and put the record straight. We're simply trying to illustrate that an apex does indeed exist on both the road and the track, and thus parallels can be drawn. I think if you read more of the page and the introduction to road driving you'll see that the main priority of road driving is visibility and the ability to see before you commit to a particular line on a corner. The illustration recommends only bringing the car to an apex near the white lines if you can see that it’s safe to do so, otherwise continue on the original line with the turn in at point B and would not tighten up. If you are travelling so fast on the road that a change in line would be disastrous you’re clearly driving too close to the limit, butif you can see that no articulated lorry is in the road, then bringing your car closer and even over the lines (if it’s legal) is not going to be a problem . Please never position your vehicle in an area which could be unsafe. If you’d like to contact me, I’d invite you to read a bit more of the road section and then email me at Jon@drivingfast.net . I will review it to take on board your comments.
All the best,
Jon
Edited by jonnogibbo on Wednesday 19th September 23:48
Exceptionally good presentation, well done. But I too have reservations about your road cornering recommendations.
I do not like recommending drivers to turn in, and leave the position for vision at the left curb, before having a full view of the road beyond the bend. I recommend reapplication of gas just before entering a blind bend, at least sufficient to maintain speed, and I should like to see reference to making space for a gear-change if required between completion of braking and entering the bend (with H&T to overlap braking and gearchanging a more advanced technique to be considered later).
Perhaps you are trying to make things too simple. Among other important points glossed over is the relationship between speed for grip and speed for vision. In most situations on the road if you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear (half that distance if the road is narrow enough that a driver overtaking a cyclist towards you could be on your side of the road) then you will not be approaching the limit of grip - and you will need to be at your slowest before you start to turn in, because that is where the vision is shortest. Hence the logic of being on the gas to maintain speed before entering the bend.
I very much liked VH's postings on the following thread, but what has happened to the vital diagrams???
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I do not like recommending drivers to turn in, and leave the position for vision at the left curb, before having a full view of the road beyond the bend. I recommend reapplication of gas just before entering a blind bend, at least sufficient to maintain speed, and I should like to see reference to making space for a gear-change if required between completion of braking and entering the bend (with H&T to overlap braking and gearchanging a more advanced technique to be considered later).
Perhaps you are trying to make things too simple. Among other important points glossed over is the relationship between speed for grip and speed for vision. In most situations on the road if you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear (half that distance if the road is narrow enough that a driver overtaking a cyclist towards you could be on your side of the road) then you will not be approaching the limit of grip - and you will need to be at your slowest before you start to turn in, because that is where the vision is shortest. Hence the logic of being on the gas to maintain speed before entering the bend.
I very much liked VH's postings on the following thread, but what has happened to the vital diagrams???
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I don't know how relevant start line techniques are to discussions about road driving, but the description you have is rather superficial.
The description you give of longitudinal and lateral grip being added to determine the total grip requirement is completely misleading.
The discussions about understeer and oversteer don't feel 'right' to me. They seem to be oversimplifying it to a question of whether you go off backwards or forwards, which is OK as a starting point to understand the general terms but if you're trying to explain the science behind them I think you need to be thinking in terms of slip angles. You say that in a rwd car excessive acceleration is more likely to produce oversteer than engine braking is, but if you look into it in more detail you'll find that the reverse is probably true.
Oh, and if you're anywhere near the limit and a squirrel runs out in front of you, don't let the little beggar compromise your corner. A hasty or insufficiently thought out reaction can put you off the road in a moment. Are you willing to put your life at risk to save a squirrel's? I'm not.
The description you give of longitudinal and lateral grip being added to determine the total grip requirement is completely misleading.
The discussions about understeer and oversteer don't feel 'right' to me. They seem to be oversimplifying it to a question of whether you go off backwards or forwards, which is OK as a starting point to understand the general terms but if you're trying to explain the science behind them I think you need to be thinking in terms of slip angles. You say that in a rwd car excessive acceleration is more likely to produce oversteer than engine braking is, but if you look into it in more detail you'll find that the reverse is probably true.
Oh, and if you're anywhere near the limit and a squirrel runs out in front of you, don't let the little beggar compromise your corner. A hasty or insufficiently thought out reaction can put you off the road in a moment. Are you willing to put your life at risk to save a squirrel's? I'm not.
Edited by GreenV8S on Wednesday 19th September 21:12
Phew! Hard to keep up - thanks for the comments! I was hoping the main purpose of the site is to try and simplify various aspects of car control and driving techniques for people who may not have the inclination to learn about the more complex aspects such slip angles, which hopefully you will agree can be very confusing. Think of it more as a beginners guide at this stage and hopefully in this way it might have a wider appeal. I think if you are well versed in slip angles you will have no need for the site. Please substitute 'squirrel' for 'child', I was hoping to make the point that stamping on the brakes mid corner can sometimes be worse than altering course slightly.
I've also sadly had to remove the road corner page, which is too open to interpretation and I'm worried about legal implications.
I've also sadly had to remove the road corner page, which is too open to interpretation and I'm worried about legal implications.
Edited by jonnogibbo on Wednesday 19th September 21:37
Edited by jonnogibbo on Wednesday 19th September 21:56
Hi Jonnogibbo,
Thank you for being so adult in your response to the criticism I levelled at your website, and please understand that it was the website I was discussing and not you as a person. I have little doubt that you were acting completely in good faith when building it and with the intention of helping people gain more of an understanding of car driving. As far as intentions go, that is a good thing.
When you publish a site such as yours you have to realise who might end up reading it, and by that I don’t mean people like me. You have to aim it at the lowest level of ability and understanding otherwise things can go so very wrong. It is a difficult task to find the right level, as you do not want to insult those who know a thing or two, but at the same time you need to make it clear enough so that there is very limited chance of misinterpretation by those, who shall we say, struggle to grasp things easily.
As I said on your site discussion page (comments that I note you have now removed) and when referring to your pages that covered cornering on the road, the turn point that was indicated by the letter B in your diagram was positioned where the exit side of the bend, and the view beyond, was obscured by trees growing on the inside of the curve. When corning, once you begin your turn you are committing yourself to the line you have chosen, so in your scenario you were committing to apex the bend before you could see if it was safe to do so. To change a plan part-way through a manoeuvre can be disastrous, and my question then to you was to ask where on that road would the driver of an articulated truck position his vehicle in preparation for what to him will be a left hand bend? Part way through a corner is not a palce where you would feel happy about coming face to face with 38-tonnes of Spanish carrots! I also pointed out that when at the point of turn you would not have been able to see (still referring to your now deleted diagram) how far the bend was going to keep running for and I invited you to print off the diagram and then make that 90-degree curve into a 120-degree curve before projecting the driving line you had marked on there to see where it took you.
The issue I had with your page, and some other areas of your site, is that a great many people out there who would read it, and because it was posted on what appeared to be a driving advice page, they would immediately go out and do it, because many of your ‘public’ would not have the level of intelligence to work out whether or not the advice they are reading was actually appropriate to the particular environment in which they were experimenting with the technique. Apart from that a huge number would not even bother to read what you have written anyway, but simply carry the image of your diagram in their head and then just mimic what they have seen, even where it is dangerous to do so. You know what it is like on this site at times, where people just dive in on a subject and vent off what they have to say when they have so obviously not bothered to read the earlier posts. Like I say, know your audience.
When dealing with cornering you should know that the most effective method is to keep the car at its optimum level of balance, and to achieve that you need to follow a perfect arc with the engine pulling, but not accelerating the vehicle whilst remaining in the same gear and not to touch the brakes, but the driving line you used was no where near a constant arc. It was also showing an input of additional engine power before the bend had begun to open out. It was, I thinnk you will agree, a poor choice of diagram to illustrate your point.
On a final note, and to pick you up on your comment, “If you are travelling so fast on the road that a change in line would be disastrous you’re clearly driving too close to the limit.” Just look at the title of your website. What message does that give out to people? You don’t set up a market stall that advertises whisky just to sell orange juice. People who drive fast will be attracted to your website because according to the title, it is aimed straight at them and that means a high proportion of your visitors will be those who push the limit – all the time.
I hope this has been received in the same manner in which it has been delivered, because I am actually trying to be helpful here. All I am saying is that when publishing this kind of thing, think very hard about the potential affect it may have at the receiving end.
Jules
Thank you for being so adult in your response to the criticism I levelled at your website, and please understand that it was the website I was discussing and not you as a person. I have little doubt that you were acting completely in good faith when building it and with the intention of helping people gain more of an understanding of car driving. As far as intentions go, that is a good thing.
When you publish a site such as yours you have to realise who might end up reading it, and by that I don’t mean people like me. You have to aim it at the lowest level of ability and understanding otherwise things can go so very wrong. It is a difficult task to find the right level, as you do not want to insult those who know a thing or two, but at the same time you need to make it clear enough so that there is very limited chance of misinterpretation by those, who shall we say, struggle to grasp things easily.
As I said on your site discussion page (comments that I note you have now removed) and when referring to your pages that covered cornering on the road, the turn point that was indicated by the letter B in your diagram was positioned where the exit side of the bend, and the view beyond, was obscured by trees growing on the inside of the curve. When corning, once you begin your turn you are committing yourself to the line you have chosen, so in your scenario you were committing to apex the bend before you could see if it was safe to do so. To change a plan part-way through a manoeuvre can be disastrous, and my question then to you was to ask where on that road would the driver of an articulated truck position his vehicle in preparation for what to him will be a left hand bend? Part way through a corner is not a palce where you would feel happy about coming face to face with 38-tonnes of Spanish carrots! I also pointed out that when at the point of turn you would not have been able to see (still referring to your now deleted diagram) how far the bend was going to keep running for and I invited you to print off the diagram and then make that 90-degree curve into a 120-degree curve before projecting the driving line you had marked on there to see where it took you.
The issue I had with your page, and some other areas of your site, is that a great many people out there who would read it, and because it was posted on what appeared to be a driving advice page, they would immediately go out and do it, because many of your ‘public’ would not have the level of intelligence to work out whether or not the advice they are reading was actually appropriate to the particular environment in which they were experimenting with the technique. Apart from that a huge number would not even bother to read what you have written anyway, but simply carry the image of your diagram in their head and then just mimic what they have seen, even where it is dangerous to do so. You know what it is like on this site at times, where people just dive in on a subject and vent off what they have to say when they have so obviously not bothered to read the earlier posts. Like I say, know your audience.
When dealing with cornering you should know that the most effective method is to keep the car at its optimum level of balance, and to achieve that you need to follow a perfect arc with the engine pulling, but not accelerating the vehicle whilst remaining in the same gear and not to touch the brakes, but the driving line you used was no where near a constant arc. It was also showing an input of additional engine power before the bend had begun to open out. It was, I thinnk you will agree, a poor choice of diagram to illustrate your point.
On a final note, and to pick you up on your comment, “If you are travelling so fast on the road that a change in line would be disastrous you’re clearly driving too close to the limit.” Just look at the title of your website. What message does that give out to people? You don’t set up a market stall that advertises whisky just to sell orange juice. People who drive fast will be attracted to your website because according to the title, it is aimed straight at them and that means a high proportion of your visitors will be those who push the limit – all the time.
I hope this has been received in the same manner in which it has been delivered, because I am actually trying to be helpful here. All I am saying is that when publishing this kind of thing, think very hard about the potential affect it may have at the receiving end.
Jules
Jules,
Before you drag my site through the mud too much more I'll try and explain where I'm coming from. It is true, road driving is not my field of main interest, however I suggest someone who can control a car well on the track (with the benefit of practise with no traffic, pedestrians, or trees) will learn certain skills and techniques which can make them a better driver on the road. I realise that you make your living from "advanced" driving courses (whereas I make no money from my site) and it is really intended to be a light hearted collation of useful knowledge on driving from all disciplines.
It's not perfect, which is why I'm getting some really great feedback from PH users and trying to put together something everyone can enjoy, but I think it may well have been a mistake to talk about the road.
I'm not claiming to be the inventor of the racing line or to be the first person to work out what understeer is, but my hope was to create something that was original and ties together many aspects of driving for anyone who is interested.
I try to have an open mind, and think it might be nice to accept that there may be more to life than the Roadcraft manual. Safety is obviously the top priority when driving on the road, goes without saying, but dare I say that it can actually be fun too!
I've taken down the page on road driving, as I have no interest in passing off the Roadcraft system as my own, and there is plenty of information out there already on the subject. The road page was really to try and complement the racing line discussion and make the point that an apex exists on the road too, if there is enough visibility to use it, but I'm going to concentrate on more generic car control articles from now on.
For those of you who don't know Julian, I've had the courtesy to read through his site in detail, and would like to share some insight:
"The British class-one police driver and motorcycle rider has long been regarded as having the most advanced level of driving and riding skills in the world"….."a level in road skills that others can only hope to aspire to"….."to drive or ride to this level is an art form in itself, and has to be experienced to be truly appreciated."
Well I've experienced it Jules, and I have a great deal of respect for police drivers who do a remarkable job, and I believe have been unfairly criticised recently for dangerous driving and causing deaths on the roads. I believe police driving technique is an excellent method of making safe progress on the roads. You are obviously an expert in this discipline. But Jules, I practice Ninjitsu, but don't try and claim it's the best and only method of martial arts.
I'm not an arrogant man Julian, and find that the wonderful thing about driving is that you can never know it all, and constantly learn new tricks from the wonderful portfolio of driving disciplines. I'd invite you to rewrite the road driving page of my site with some fresh ideas of your own, and I will gladly credit and link to your site.
I apologise deeply for having to inflict this onto other PH users, and many thanks again for constructive criticism.
Before you drag my site through the mud too much more I'll try and explain where I'm coming from. It is true, road driving is not my field of main interest, however I suggest someone who can control a car well on the track (with the benefit of practise with no traffic, pedestrians, or trees) will learn certain skills and techniques which can make them a better driver on the road. I realise that you make your living from "advanced" driving courses (whereas I make no money from my site) and it is really intended to be a light hearted collation of useful knowledge on driving from all disciplines.
It's not perfect, which is why I'm getting some really great feedback from PH users and trying to put together something everyone can enjoy, but I think it may well have been a mistake to talk about the road.
I'm not claiming to be the inventor of the racing line or to be the first person to work out what understeer is, but my hope was to create something that was original and ties together many aspects of driving for anyone who is interested.
I try to have an open mind, and think it might be nice to accept that there may be more to life than the Roadcraft manual. Safety is obviously the top priority when driving on the road, goes without saying, but dare I say that it can actually be fun too!
I've taken down the page on road driving, as I have no interest in passing off the Roadcraft system as my own, and there is plenty of information out there already on the subject. The road page was really to try and complement the racing line discussion and make the point that an apex exists on the road too, if there is enough visibility to use it, but I'm going to concentrate on more generic car control articles from now on.
For those of you who don't know Julian, I've had the courtesy to read through his site in detail, and would like to share some insight:
"The British class-one police driver and motorcycle rider has long been regarded as having the most advanced level of driving and riding skills in the world"….."a level in road skills that others can only hope to aspire to"….."to drive or ride to this level is an art form in itself, and has to be experienced to be truly appreciated."
Well I've experienced it Jules, and I have a great deal of respect for police drivers who do a remarkable job, and I believe have been unfairly criticised recently for dangerous driving and causing deaths on the roads. I believe police driving technique is an excellent method of making safe progress on the roads. You are obviously an expert in this discipline. But Jules, I practice Ninjitsu, but don't try and claim it's the best and only method of martial arts.
I'm not an arrogant man Julian, and find that the wonderful thing about driving is that you can never know it all, and constantly learn new tricks from the wonderful portfolio of driving disciplines. I'd invite you to rewrite the road driving page of my site with some fresh ideas of your own, and I will gladly credit and link to your site.
I apologise deeply for having to inflict this onto other PH users, and many thanks again for constructive criticism.
Edited by jonnogibbo on Thursday 20th September 10:42
Edited by jonnogibbo on Friday 2nd November 13:55
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