How to block the motorway without really trying

[Brother Mycroft]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Brother Mycroft said:

I think you will find it is...

As a singular action taken on its own then overtaking on either the left or right is riskier than doing nothing.

The answer however cannot be left there, there are ramifications of all actions and very few actions are singular lone acts there are always consequences, therefore my answer stands, in the majority of instances overtaking on the left will be a positive action on almost all counts in comparison to the one you have advocated which overall is a negative action on all counts.

Nope - I see the words on the screen, but All I can read is "blah, blah, blah".

It's late, your mind may be fogged by the ravages of the day... sleep on it... you'll catch up in the morning.

[R_U_LOCAL]

I don't think a nights sleep will change my view of your "answer".

In my experience, if it looks like crap and it smells like crap, it's usually crap.

[Yung Man]

Yung Man said:

I was driving north on the M1
Eventually we had Fiat Panda in lane 2 doing 65mph and a Kia Sorrento in lane 3 doing spot on 70mph with a Clio behind him then me, there was nothing in lane 1.

The chances are that the Clio was driven by an advanced driver who had all the patience in the world, the trouble is I don't like flashing the guy who is behind the one that needs shifting.
If you sit patiently behind someone for mile after mile and they only move over when they are ready to leave at the next exit, which I find is usually the case they haven't learned anything and so will do exactly the same thing next time they use a motorway or dual carraigeway, as a normal driver I don't have to ability to point out to this guy that his driving is not acceptable.
If on their 100 mile journey they where passed on the left by 10 car drivers the police could stop and book all 10 of them because the HC says it's a no no, surely the best thing to do is stop the MLM and re educate him so that next time he doesn't cause 10 cars to pass him on the left, this has got to be a better way of improving safety.

[vonhosen]

Yung Man said:

Yung Man said:

I was driving north on the M1
Eventually we had Fiat Panda in lane 2 doing 65mph and a Kia Sorrento in lane 3 doing spot on 70mph with a Clio behind him then me, there was nothing in lane 1.

The chances are that the Clio was driven by an advanced driver who had all the patience in the world, the trouble is I don't like flashing the guy who is behind the one that needs shifting.
If you sit patiently behind someone for mile after mile and they only move over when they are ready to leave at the next exit, which I find is usually the case they haven't learned anything and so will do exactly the same thing next time they use a motorway or dual carraigeway, as a normal driver I don't have to ability to point out to this guy that his driving is not acceptable.
If on their 100 mile journey they where passed on the left by 10 car drivers the police could stop and book all 10 of them because the HC says it's a no no, surely the best thing to do is stop the MLM and re educate him so that next time he doesn't cause 10 cars to pass him on the left, this has got to be a better way of improving safety.

The Kia Sorento in lane 3 is of course quite right to pass the vehicle doing 65 in lane 2 at no more than 70, just as you should be doing. Undertaking both in excess of the limit is not the way forward. Even if the Clio weren't between you, you shouldn't be flashing the Kia for doing the overtake in that fashion.

Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 10th October 07:24

[Brother Mycroft]

R_U_LOCAL said:

I don't think a nights sleep will change my view of your "answer".

In my experience, if it looks like crap and it smells like crap, it's usually crap.

Perhaps you should have been a detective with that razor sharp observation!

However...

In my experience humans are actually not very good at assessing risks unless trained.

Mothers stop their children from playing outside through fear of paedophiles yet the risks are no worse than when I was a child, overbearing fear of a singular risk is a disaster.

So, the advanced driver should be aware of this and take into account a broader sweep of the risks surrounding his actions, this includes the effect on other drivers or in your advisement the inaction advised.

On an empty motorway overtaking on the left [even by going into L1] is as risk free as any overtaking manoeuvre. So an overall risk evaluation shows the move to be reasonable and acceptable.

On a motorway packed with commuters, many in a fast moving [65-70mph] snake in L3 if the opportunity is there for overtaking this gaggle in L2 keeps that nose-to-tail high risk snake as short as possible and leads others to review their proximity to the car in front then that is a good thing, for years the police have [quite rightly] banged on about nose-to-tailing but to little avail in these circumstances, overtaking on the left might just be the manoeuvre that depletes this very high risk activity.

We can differ on this matter and I do accept that your position is the commonly accepted stance on overtaking on the left, but that difference does not make my opinion crap.

I believe that all driving can be improved and that many accepted norms need questioning and this is one of those that need to be reviewed as I believe it to be a step in the right direction... an advance so to speak.

[Gromit37]

It seems that there are people here who think that because they can 'justify' their point of view, it is ok to do what they see fit. They decry the police for doing their job, according them the status of mindless automatons, whilst elevating themselves to 'expert' status because it suits them. No doubt they would complain if the Police randomly selected which crimes they should investigate!

So, if I see it's unfair for some people to be living in poverty, whilst others live a life of luxury, it is ok for me to redistribute the wealth as I see fit? Hand over your money and material goods now! I can justify it, so it must be ok.

Like it or not, there are rules. If you don't like them, petition the powers that be to have them changed. You're welcome to pick and choose which rules are ok to obey and which aren't, because it suits your mood at the time, but if you choose to do so (and I admit that most do), then you should expect to get caught and accept the penalty.

Two wrongs don't make a right. And as has been pointed out already, overtaking on the left puts you at a speed and in a place where people may not expect you to be.

A few well publicised cases of prosecution for hogging lanes would help matters. Ditto for 'undertaking'. To break these bad habits, people need to *see* the law being enforced, otherwise they will ignore the rules.

And no, I'm not a Policeman/HATO/Lawyer/saint/angel etc. But my Halo is on order

[Brother Mycroft]

Gromit37 said:

It seems that there are people here who think that because they can 'justify' their point of view, it is ok to do what they see fit. They decry the police for doing their job, according them the status of mindless automatons, whilst elevating themselves to 'expert' status because it suits them. No doubt they would complain if the Police randomly selected which crimes they should investigate!

So, if I see it's unfair for some people to be living in poverty, whilst others live a life of luxury, it is ok for me to redistribute the wealth as I see fit? Hand over your money and material goods now! I can justify it, so it must be ok.

Like it or not, there are rules. If you don't like them, petition the powers that be to have them changed. You're welcome to pick and choose which rules are ok to obey and which aren't, because it suits your mood at the time, but if you choose to do so (and I admit that most do), then you should expect to get caught and accept the penalty.

Two wrongs don't make a right. And as has been pointed out already, overtaking on the left puts you at a speed and in a place where people may not expect you to be.

A few well publicised cases of prosecution for hogging lanes would help matters. Ditto for 'undertaking'. [1] To break these bad habits, people need to *see* the law being enforced, otherwise they will ignore the rules.

And no, I'm not a Policeman/HATO/Lawyer/saint/angel etc. But my Halo is on order

Your post has merit in that we are in agreement that at the moment to do the right thing on the road is frowned upon and we who do overtake on the left are in the firing line for a ticket.

But, you taint it by concluding your post by invoking the principal that overtaking on the left is intrinsically a bad habit [1], it is only a 'bad habit' because it has not been sanctioned as ok by the powers that be.

The practice [as agreed here] is in and of itself not bad driving, rather it is a good measure in that it will relieve some congestion which is the root cause of a lot of inappropriate behaviour on the road. It lowers the overall level of risk on a crowded road.

[CommanderJameson]

Brother Mycroft]...overtaking on the left is intrinsically a bad habit [1 said:

, it is only a 'bad habit' because it has not been sanctioned as ok by the powers that be.

The practice [as agreed here] is in and of itself not bad driving, rather it is a good measure in that it will relieve some congestion which is the root cause of a lot of inappropriate behaviour on the road. It lowers the overall level of risk on a crowded road.

Overtaking on the left is a bad habit, not because it's not "sanctioned as OK", but because it runs counter to the expectations of most road users.

It's a bad habit of lesser magnitude but the same principle as driving the wrong way down the motorway.

On the motorway, our entire driving methodology is built around the idea that, in free-flowing conditions, we are moving faster than the traffic to our left.

By taking actions that are counter to the expectations of most motorists, you raise the risk level.

[Brother Mycroft]

CommanderJameson said:

Brother Mycroft]...overtaking on the left is intrinsically a bad habit [1 said:

, it is only a 'bad habit' because it has not been sanctioned as ok by the powers that be.

The practice [as agreed here] is in and of itself not bad driving, rather it is a good measure in that it will relieve some congestion which is the root cause of a lot of inappropriate behaviour on the road. It lowers the overall level of risk on a crowded road.

[1] Overtaking on the left is a bad habit, not because it's not "sanctioned as OK", but because it runs counter to the expectations of most road users.

[2] It's a bad habit of lesser magnitude but the same principle as driving the wrong way down the motorway.

[3] On the motorway, our entire driving methodology is built around the idea that, in free-flowing conditions, we are moving faster than the traffic to our left.

[4] By taking actions that are counter to the expectations of most motorists, you raise the risk level.

1/. This is simply not so, when pulling over to the left do you not check your left hand mirror?.. Why do you do that?.. I'll tell you why... precisely because we do not expect the road to be clear even though we are 'supposed' to be faster in L3 than L2

So, you are wrong on your first point.

2/. No, you are entirely wrong again, there is no 'habit' whereby everyday lots of people drive down the wrong side of the motorway, you are simply talking nonsense.

3/. See my answer in 1/.

4/. This is right, but as you can atest yourself almost all drivers are prepped for the guy in a 'slower' lane being faster than yourself, that is why that leftside mirror is there!

[CommanderJameson]

Brother Mycroft said:

CommanderJameson said:

Brother Mycroft]...overtaking on the left is intrinsically a bad habit [1 said:

, it is only a 'bad habit' because it has not been sanctioned as ok by the powers that be.

The practice [as agreed here] is in and of itself not bad driving, rather it is a good measure in that it will relieve some congestion which is the root cause of a lot of inappropriate behaviour on the road. It lowers the overall level of risk on a crowded road.

[1] Overtaking on the left is a bad habit, not because it's not "sanctioned as OK", but because it runs counter to the expectations of most road users.

[2] It's a bad habit of lesser magnitude but the same principle as driving the wrong way down the motorway.

[3] On the motorway, our entire driving methodology is built around the idea that, in free-flowing conditions, we are moving faster than the traffic to our left.

[4] By taking actions that are counter to the expectations of most motorists, you raise the risk level.

1/. This is simply not so, when pulling over to the left do you not check your left hand mirror?.. Why do you do that?.. I'll tell you why... precisely because we do not expect the road to be clear even though we are 'supposed' to be faster in L3 than L2

So, you are wrong on your first point.

2/. No, you are entirely wrong again, there is no 'habit' whereby everyday lots of people drive down the wrong side of the motorway, you are simply talking nonsense.

3/. See my answer in 1/.

4/. This is right, but as you can atest yourself almost all drivers are prepped for the guy in a 'slower' lane being faster than yourself, that is why that leftside mirror is there!

1. I check my offside mirror to ensure that I do not drive into the side of an already extant vehicle - which I expect to be travelling slower than me
2. It's not a habit at all, except in a very small number of drivers who act contrary to the rules of the road
3. As 1
4. No, we're not prepped for the lane to our left being faster than us.

You seem to be operating under the illusion that other drivers think the same way as you.

They don't.

[Brother Mycroft]

CommanderJameson said:

Brother Mycroft said:

CommanderJameson said:

Brother Mycroft]...overtaking on the left is intrinsically a bad habit [1 said:

, it is only a 'bad habit' because it has not been sanctioned as ok by the powers that be.

The practice [as agreed here] is in and of itself not bad driving, rather it is a good measure in that it will relieve some congestion which is the root cause of a lot of inappropriate behaviour on the road. It lowers the overall level of risk on a crowded road.

[1] Overtaking on the left is a bad habit, not because it's not "sanctioned as OK", but because it runs counter to the expectations of most road users.

[2] It's a bad habit of lesser magnitude but the same principle as driving the wrong way down the motorway.

[3] On the motorway, our entire driving methodology is built around the idea that, in free-flowing conditions, we are moving faster than the traffic to our left.

[4] By taking actions that are counter to the expectations of most motorists, you raise the risk level.

1/. This is simply not so, when pulling over to the left do you not check your left hand mirror?.. Why do you do that?.. I'll tell you why... precisely because we do not expect the road to be clear even though we are 'supposed' to be faster in L3 than L2

So, you are wrong on your first point.

2/. No, you are entirely wrong again, there is no 'habit' whereby everyday lots of people drive down the wrong side of the motorway, you are simply talking nonsense.

3/. See my answer in 1/.

4/. This is right, but as you can atest yourself almost all drivers are prepped for the guy in a 'slower' lane being faster than yourself, that is why that leftside mirror is there!

1. I check my offside mirror to ensure that I do not drive into the side of an already extant vehicle - which I expect to be travelling slower than me
2. It's not a habit at all, except in a very small number of drivers who act contrary to the rules of the road
3. As 1
4. No, we're not prepped for the lane to our left being faster than us.

You seem to be operating under the illusion that other drivers think the same way as you.

They don't.

1/. If you ARE and HAVE BEEN travelling faster than the traffic in L2 why do you have any need to to check?

You see if you are and have been faster then you would know if a car was there because you would have just passed it!

2/. Yes but generally they join the motorway in error or to escape the police, i do not think that can be many case where people have travelled along the M4 west bound and then suddenly decided that they would turn 'round and head east on the same carriageway!

It is a daft, almost asinine analogy that you have tried to make.

3/. as my 1/.

4/. Then you are a very bad driver, you should be ready for anything coming up the left side of you at any time.

[CommanderJameson]

Brother Mycroft said:

1/. If you ARE and HAVE BEEN travelling faster than the traffic in L2 why do you have any need to to check?

You see if you are and have been faster then you would know if a car was there because you would have just passed it!

So why bother with mirrors at all? Why bother with lane discipline at all? Why not just make it a giant free for all, like on the US freeways, and reap their safety rewards?

I'm certainly not expecting traffic to my left to be travelling faster. Mainly I check my mirror to ensure that I'm being suitably courteous to the driver in front of whom I'm about to pull.

Brother Mycroft said:

2/. Yes but generally they join the motorway in error or to escape the police, i do not think that can be many case where people have travelled along the M4 west bound and then suddenly decided that they would turn 'round and head east on the same carriageway!

It is a daft, almost asinine analogy that you have tried to make.

In terms of the expectations of drivers, it is not. No matter how much you like to pretend otherwise, drivers on the motorway expect, in free-flowing conditions, that the traffic to their left is moving more slowly than they are. We are taught this on DCs in our driving lessons. We are told this on the matrix boards. RUL and vh will nick you if they catch you doing otherwise. Our driving culture says "pass on the right in normal conditions". Your repeated assertions that this is not so fly in the face of observable reality.

Brother Mycroft said:

4/. Then you are a very bad driver, you should be ready for anything coming up the left side of you at any time.

Your opinion of my driving (which you have not seen, and I have no reason to suppose you'd be qualified to comment on it if you did) is irrelevant. For a brucey bonus, you've missed the point, which was about driver expectations. I check ALL my mirrors regularly, but I still have an expectation that on the motorway cars will behave, by and large, within certain parameters (travelling in the same direction, speed to my left lower than the speed to my right, up-tight TDi driver glued to my rear bumper, etc, etc).

[Yung Man]

vonhosen said:

Yung Man said:

Yung Man said:

I was driving north on the M1
Eventually we had Fiat Panda in lane 2 doing 65mph and a Kia Sorrento in lane 3 doing spot on 70mph with a Clio behind him then me, there was nothing in lane 1.

surely the best thing to do is stop the MLM and re educate him so that next time he doesn't cause 10 cars to pass him on the left, this has got to be a better way of improving safety.

The Kia Sorento in lane 3 is of course quite right to pass the vehicle doing 65 in lane 2 at no more than 70, just as you should be doing. Undertaking both in excess of the limit is not the way forward. Even if the Clio weren't between you, you shouldn't be flashing the Kia for doing the overtake in that fashion.

Whether the sorrento was actually doing exactly 70mph is irrelevant(his or my speed cannot be relied upon to be accurate) but you are quite right 70mph is the limit, we had been driving along like this for a few miles so looking back on it either the Panda was now doing 70mph or the Sorrento had slowed to 65mph (these are only approximate figures).
It was the Panda driver that was holding the job up by being a MLM.

How do we stop people driving like this?, If you (plod) make no effort to stop them and have a word it is just going to become the norm, how else can society (us) get the message through to them, they are basically reducing a 3 lane road down to a 2 laner.

[Brother Mycroft]

CommanderJameson said:

Your stuff.

1. You are simply avoiding the consequence of what you say... you check your leftside mirror to ensure all is well 'anticpating' something might not be... but you say that you have been travelling faster than all the traffic to your left?

That is contradictory!

It is good driving practice but that 'anticipation' is all the alertness you need for overtaking on the left to be a safe manoeuvre.

You are yourself by those two posts stating the circumstances in which you an advocate of not overtaking on the left is mentally prepared for it.

A situation that is present in all but a few on the road at any one time.

2. You insist that there is a co-relation between a driver overtaking on the left and the same driver deciding to turn his car 'round on that same carriageway in order to get where he is going safely.

That, sir, is total rubbish, even reading it makes absolutely no sense, there is no co-relation of those two events, there is no analogy in those events, yet you insist repeatedly that they are in some way the same sort of error!

Wrong in every respect.

4. You say you are not prepared for a driver coming up on you on the left at speeds greater than your own [and not withstanding our argument in [1] (where you contradict this statement)] and with those words I can rightly say that you are a bad driver because you should be!

So my opinion of your driving skills was based on an admission you were not capable of dealing with a faster car than your own in a lane to your left... it is no good then sounding all aghast when the natural conclusion is that by your own words you are a bad driver.

[CommanderJameson]

Brother Mycroft said:

CommanderJameson said:

Your stuff.

1. You are simply avoiding the consequence of what you say... you check your leftside mirror to ensure all is well 'anticpating' something might not be... but you say that you have been travelling faster than all the traffic to your left?

That is contradictory!

It is good driving practice but that 'anticipation' is all the alertness you need for overtaking on the left to be a safe manoeuvre.

You are yourself by those two posts stating the circumstances in which you an advocate of not overtaking on the left is mentally prepared for it.

A situation that is present in all but a few on the road at any one time.

2. You insist that there is a co-relation between a driver overtaking on the left and the same driver deciding to turn his car 'round on that same carriageway in order to get where he is going safely.

That, sir, is total rubbish, even reading it makes absolutely no sense, there is no co-relation of those two events, there is no analogy in those events, yet you insist repeatedly that they are in some way the same sort of error!

Wrong in every respect.

4. You say you are not prepared for a driver coming up on you on the left at speeds greater than your own [and not withstanding our argument in [1] (where you contradict this statement)] and with those words I can rightly say that you are a bad driver because you should be!

So my opinion of your driving skills was based on an admission you were not capable of dealing with a faster car than your own in a lane to your left... it is no good then sounding all aghast when the natural conclusion is that by your own words you are a bad driver.

You're arguing with words I didn't write.

See ya.

[Brother Mycroft]

CommanderJameson said:

Brother Mycroft said:

CommanderJameson said:

Your stuff.

1. You are simply avoiding the consequence of what you say... you check your leftside mirror to ensure all is well 'anticpating' something might not be... but you say that you have been travelling faster than all the traffic to your left?

That is contradictory!

It is good driving practice but that 'anticipation' is all the alertness you need for overtaking on the left to be a safe manoeuvre.

You are yourself by those two posts stating the circumstances in which you an advocate of not overtaking on the left is mentally prepared for it.

A situation that is present in all but a few on the road at any one time.

2. You insist that there is a co-relation between a driver overtaking on the left and the same driver deciding to turn his car 'round on that same carriageway in order to get where he is going safely.

That, sir, is total rubbish, even reading it makes absolutely no sense, there is no co-relation of those two events, there is no analogy in those events, yet you insist repeatedly that they are in some way the same sort of error!

Wrong in every respect.

4. You say you are not prepared for a driver coming up on you on the left at speeds greater than your own [and not withstanding our argument in [1] (where you contradict this statement)] and with those words I can rightly say that you are a bad driver because you should be!

So my opinion of your driving skills was based on an admission you were not capable of dealing with a faster car than your own in a lane to your left... it is no good then sounding all aghast when the natural conclusion is that by your own words you are a bad driver.

You're arguing with words I didn't write.

See ya.

No, I am demolishing your arguments by the use of your own statements, statements that are in my opinion part contradictory and in parts ill-considered.

[CommanderJameson]

Brother Mycroft said:

CommanderJameson said:

Brother Mycroft said:

CommanderJameson said:

Your stuff.

1. You are simply avoiding the consequence of what you say... you check your leftside mirror to ensure all is well 'anticpating' something might not be... but you say that you have been travelling faster than all the traffic to your left?

That is contradictory!

It is good driving practice but that 'anticipation' is all the alertness you need for overtaking on the left to be a safe manoeuvre.

You are yourself by those two posts stating the circumstances in which you an advocate of not overtaking on the left is mentally prepared for it.

A situation that is present in all but a few on the road at any one time.

2. You insist that there is a co-relation between a driver overtaking on the left and the same driver deciding to turn his car 'round on that same carriageway in order to get where he is going safely.

That, sir, is total rubbish, even reading it makes absolutely no sense, there is no co-relation of those two events, there is no analogy in those events, yet you insist repeatedly that they are in some way the same sort of error!

Wrong in every respect.

4. You say you are not prepared for a driver coming up on you on the left at speeds greater than your own [and not withstanding our argument in [1] (where you contradict this statement)] and with those words I can rightly say that you are a bad driver because you should be!

So my opinion of your driving skills was based on an admission you were not capable of dealing with a faster car than your own in a lane to your left... it is no good then sounding all aghast when the natural conclusion is that by your own words you are a bad driver.

You're arguing with words I didn't write.

See ya.

No, I am demolishing your arguments by the use of your own statements, statements that are in my opinion part contradictory and in parts ill-considered.

Good for you.

I consider myself duly chastised, and eagerly await your next morsel of wisdom which you will, no doubt, drop on the floor for us mortals to devour.

[R_U_LOCAL]

Brother Mycroft said:

No, I am demolishing your arguments by the use of your own statements, statements that are in my opinion part contradictory and in parts ill-considered.

[joaquin]

Brother Mycroft, you're making multiple strawmen arguments, twisting words and making false assumptions just to forward your own opinion. You keep bleeting about "this isn't a one dimensional issue, as the manouver has other consequences" suggesting that people should look and think beyond the immediate, but you seem to lose all grasp of that when reading other people's posts. Also, your cries of "your analogy is nonsense" could easily be applied to your previous analogy. One rule for you and a different one for everyone else, eh?

On the topic of undertaking, I could run blindfolded across the road and the chances are I won't get run over. After all, drivers should be paying attention to whats in front of them (that's what windscreens are for), but one day there will be one driver who doesn't look, and doesn't stop, and I'll be totally boned.

*rips off shirt, Hulk Hogan stylee*

Edited by joaquin on Wednesday 10th October 17:01

[Brother Mycroft]

joaquin said:

Brother Mycroft, you're making multiple strawmen arguments, twisting words and making false assumptions just to forward your own opinion. You keep bleeting about "this isn't a one dimensional issue, as the manouver has other consequences" suggesting that people should look and think beyond the immediate, but you seem to lose all grasp of that when reading other people's posts. Also, your cries of "your analogy is nonsense" could easily be applied to your previous analogy. One rule for you and a different one for everyone else, eh?

On the topic of undertaking, I could run blindfolded across the road and the chances are I won't get run over. After all, drivers should be paying attention to whats in front of them (that's what windscreens are for), but one day there will be one driver who doesn't look, and doesn't stop, and I'll be totally boned.

*rips off shirt, Hulk Hogan stylee*

Edited by joaquin on Wednesday 10th October 17:01

If you think that there are any strawman arguments in anything I type please outline them and I will explain at what point you don't understand the meaning of a strawman argument.

HTH

RULoco, that was a pointless little post you made, you have outlined your reasons for not overtaking on the left and I have made my case for it.

I feel I have made a sufficiently good case [that does not rely on the 'law' as a call on a higher authority] to stand by it without insult.

You, by posting that pic after a rather poor defence of your stance you are by your actions accepting that the only reason you stand by the no overtaking on the left is because it is in the book.

Edited by Brother Mycroft on Wednesday 10th October 17:35