How to block the motorway without really trying
Discussion
R_U_LOCAL said:
Brother Mycroft said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
MLMs might be annoying, but in reality, they're not a priority for the Police. We've enough to do trying to remove the most dangerous and illegal drivers from the road.
I understand people's frustration with the MLMs, but my advice on page 1 of this thread still stands.
It is bad advice, it does not improve the road skills of anyone and leads to frustration.I understand people's frustration with the MLMs, but my advice on page 1 of this thread still stands.
Things advanced driver are meant to avoid either in themselves or in others.
Brother Mycroft said:
In this situation, a very common place one now owing to 'over-enthusiastic speed enforcement, I hold back in lane 3, put on my indicator as if turning right and wait 5 secs or so, then a little flash, which usually does the trick.
I think sitting on the tail like a gormless nerk is not really the way to go... chilled or not, by sitting there you are doing nothing to improve road awareness in others.
The second paragraph is the pertinent one.I think sitting on the tail like a gormless nerk is not really the way to go... chilled or not, by sitting there you are doing nothing to improve road awareness in others.
Sitting back and chilling is entirely wrong, it lowers your own attention level, it does nothing but allow the fool hogging the lane blaze on regardless and further it creates in the end congestion, the proven cause of hasty or wreckless driving!
Now you seem to be advocating this situation... that is bad advice, really bad advice.
Edited by Brother Mycroft on Tuesday 9th October 21:11
Brother Mycroft said:
I refer you to this post earlier in this thread...
Sitting back and chilling is entirely wrong, it lowers your own attention level, it does nothing but allow the fool hogging the lane blaze on regardless and further it creates in the end congestion, the proven cause of hasty or wreckless driving!
Now you seem to be advocating this situation... that is bad advice, really bad advice.
Once again, you're demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge on the subject.Brother Mycroft said:
In this situation, a very common place one now owing to 'over-enthusiastic speed enforcement, I hold back in lane 3, put on my indicator as if turning right and wait 5 secs or so, then a little flash, which usually does the trick.
I think sitting on the tail like a gormless nerk is not really the way to go... chilled or not, by sitting there you are doing nothing to improve road awareness in others.
The second paragraph is the pertinent one.I think sitting on the tail like a gormless nerk is not really the way to go... chilled or not, by sitting there you are doing nothing to improve road awareness in others.
Sitting back and chilling is entirely wrong, it lowers your own attention level, it does nothing but allow the fool hogging the lane blaze on regardless and further it creates in the end congestion, the proven cause of hasty or wreckless driving!
Now you seem to be advocating this situation... that is bad advice, really bad advice.
A sign of a good advanced driver is the ability to demonstrate patience and restraint.
Impatience is a trait of a poor driver, irrespective of the circumstances.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Brother Mycroft said:
I refer you to this post earlier in this thread...
Sitting back and chilling is entirely wrong, it lowers your own attention level, it does nothing but allow the fool hogging the lane blaze on regardless and further it creates in the end congestion, the proven cause of hasty or wreckless driving!
Now you seem to be advocating this situation... that is bad advice, really bad advice.
Once again, you're demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge on the subject.Brother Mycroft said:
In this situation, a very common place one now owing to 'over-enthusiastic speed enforcement, I hold back in lane 3, put on my indicator as if turning right and wait 5 secs or so, then a little flash, which usually does the trick.
I think sitting on the tail like a gormless nerk is not really the way to go... chilled or not, by sitting there you are doing nothing to improve road awareness in others.
The second paragraph is the pertinent one.I think sitting on the tail like a gormless nerk is not really the way to go... chilled or not, by sitting there you are doing nothing to improve road awareness in others.
Sitting back and chilling is entirely wrong, it lowers your own attention level, it does nothing but allow the fool hogging the lane blaze on regardless and further it creates in the end congestion, the proven cause of hasty or wreckless driving!
Now you seem to be advocating this situation... that is bad advice, really bad advice.
A sign of a good advanced driver is the ability to demonstrate patience and restraint.
Impatience is a trait of a poor driver, irrespective of the circumstances.
Edited by Brother Mycroft on Tuesday 9th October 21:22
If drivers are unaware enough of the congestion and frustration their driving is causing by hogging either lane 2 or 3, then what is stop them moving back to an inside lane without looking left closely enough! Why lower your driving standards to a lower level than thier's!
If more and more so called "advanced" and informed drivers undertake (by that I mean pass on the left) what message does this give to the drivers who give no thought to more advanced matters and improved observations and fly past on the left without the thought and planning that some folk on here advocate as being "acceptable". It gives a clear message to other less experianced drivers that it is ok! It will be them that gets caught out no doubt!
As Reg says sit back and chill! Set an example and don't expose yourself to additional danger!
Gordon
Strangely Brown said:
vonhosen said:
It's not obstruction. They would be dealt with for Sec 3 RTA, only the flipside of it to the person undertaking, that is without reasonable consideration.
OK, fair enough but as I continually take the trouble to point out, the OVERTAKE on the nearside is only ever carried out after they have been given ample time to move, after they have been alerted to my presence and after I have made careful judgement of their likely actions. ONLY then do I OVERTAKE on the nearside. No matter how you spin it that is FAR from DWDCA. [Cue explanation of how the test is blah blah blah.... yawn] If it's dangerous in the circumstances that I describe then it's dangerous when done in queues and more so in one way streets and the US Freeways and Interstates would be total carnage. The simple fact of the matter is that if it is done properly then it is no more dangerous than OVERTAKING on the offside. You can argue it as much as you like but you won't change the facts.Strangely Brown said:
vonhosen said:
Though you'd be hard pressed to prove that where they were driving at the speed limit (because you shouldn't be going any quicker than that anyway) & these are most of the undertaking cases I see.
Whilst that may be true in most cases it is by no means the overwhelming majority. I often find them travelling a good 10 or 20 mph UNDER the limit.Strangely Brown said:
vonhosen said:
Simple fact is neither should be doing what they are doing, it's in contravention of the Highway code for both,
A contravention of the HC does not in itself constitute an offence. Yes, I understand that it can be used to establish culpability in the event of accident.Strangely Brown said:
vonhosen said:
it would probably cause both to fail on a driving test were it done on a DC. In short it's unacceptable driving behaviour.
IMO it is unacceptable to be forced to sit behind people for mile after mile when they are either completely oblivious to the world around them or so pig-ignorant that they don't give a toss how their behaviour is affecting everyone behind them.Strangely Brown said:
vonhosen said:
You can disagree with that, I don't mind,
I think we have already established that much.Strangely Brown said:
vonhosen said:
I'll deal with things as I see fit (as I'm charged with doing)
Yes, it's nice to have a bit of power to use "as you see fit" isn't it. It's such a shame that you "see fit" as you do, but we've been there before haven't we.Strangely Brown said:
vonhosen said:
not how you would do it if you had my job.
The difference being that at least I would tackle the problem, NOT the symptom. I certainly wouldn't be a mindless drone enforcing the law simply because it's the law. I'd like to think that I, at least, would be able to tell the difference between what is "illegal" and what is "wrong".Both are wrong, both can constitute an offence. I've said don't commit to the riskier of the two & I'll deal with the other, commit to raising the stakes & it could be you. You don't 'have' to undertake, you are not forced into it, you choose to.
Saying 'but look at the others' doesn't excuse your offending.
I've always found a flash of full beams and/or some indicating sufficient to get people to shift out the way. The only time this hasn't worked was late one summer evening on a seemingly deserted stretch of the M5. There was a young, stoned looking chap in L3 doing a solid 50 mph, and he didn't even check any of his mirrors let alone consider moving aside. I didn't really have any choice but to undertake him (me L1 him L3). I looked at his face briefly as I passed and he was just drowsily staring straight forward. I'm not even sure he was aware that he was in a car.
Aside from that one incident though I haven't encountered a situation where a minute or so of patience and signalling hasn't had the desired effect of moving the car(s) in front out of the way. In the last week I have seen two instances of drivers weaving to the nearside to perform an undertake that have ended in near misses. It doesn't help that people often start changing lane on the motorway before they indicate. I especially wouldn't undertake two cars, as the first car in front of me could be doing as I would and trying to shift the one in front him. If that car then acknowledges the car in front of me and moves just as I am performing the impatient undertake then I'd very quickly find myself in a spot of bother. Add to this the fact that the leading lane hogger may now feel under pressure and rush the move to the nearside an it just seems even more dangerous. I'd rather hang back and arrive 2 minutes late than get me and my sardine tin motor wazzed by a lane hogger.
Out of interest, are the rules any different if L1 is imminently branching off to a different road, and separated from L2 and L3 by short dashed white lines?
Aside from that one incident though I haven't encountered a situation where a minute or so of patience and signalling hasn't had the desired effect of moving the car(s) in front out of the way. In the last week I have seen two instances of drivers weaving to the nearside to perform an undertake that have ended in near misses. It doesn't help that people often start changing lane on the motorway before they indicate. I especially wouldn't undertake two cars, as the first car in front of me could be doing as I would and trying to shift the one in front him. If that car then acknowledges the car in front of me and moves just as I am performing the impatient undertake then I'd very quickly find myself in a spot of bother. Add to this the fact that the leading lane hogger may now feel under pressure and rush the move to the nearside an it just seems even more dangerous. I'd rather hang back and arrive 2 minutes late than get me and my sardine tin motor wazzed by a lane hogger.
Out of interest, are the rules any different if L1 is imminently branching off to a different road, and separated from L2 and L3 by short dashed white lines?
Edited by joaquin on Tuesday 9th October 21:53
gordonb said:
If drivers are unaware enough of the congestion and frustration their driving is causing by hogging either lane 2 or 3, then what is stop them moving back to an inside lane without looking left closely enough! [1] Why lower your driving standards to a lower level than thier's!
[2] If more and more so called "advanced" and informed drivers undertake (by that I mean pass on the left) what message does this give to the drivers who give no thought to more advanced matters and improved observations and fly past on the left without the thought and planning that some folk on here advocate as being "acceptable". It gives a clear message to other less experianced drivers that it is ok! It will be them that gets caught out no doubt!
As Reg says sit back and chill! Set an example and don't expose yourself to additional danger!
Gordon
1/. In what way is it lowering your driving standard? Just because it is [at present] against the law that does not mean your standard of driving is worsened by doing it.[2] If more and more so called "advanced" and informed drivers undertake (by that I mean pass on the left) what message does this give to the drivers who give no thought to more advanced matters and improved observations and fly past on the left without the thought and planning that some folk on here advocate as being "acceptable". It gives a clear message to other less experianced drivers that it is ok! It will be them that gets caught out no doubt!
As Reg says sit back and chill! Set an example and don't expose yourself to additional danger!
Gordon
Let me explain... You will happily take a left turn at a junction if the road is clear to your right, that is what you should do it is proper progress on the road you don't wait for the traffic on the other carriageway [coming at you from the left] to be clear to pull out... but if there is a traffic light there you can't pull out at all... the action that you would take if you were allowed to take a left against the lights would be the same so it is only because we have a 'convention' to not do something that we think doing it is bad... overtaking on the left is not in itself a bad driving move.
2/. I suggest like all good manoeuvres it might just make them improve their alertness and do it themselves on occasion... I think you will find the journey to work quicker, because that 'snake of the hopeless' in lane three would disipate and that would mean that instead of 20 cars sitting nose-to-tail at 65-70 mph they would all be all over the carriageway getting a move on.
By allowing overtaking on the left it will improve life on M'ways for the vast majority of us.
Edited by Brother Mycroft on Tuesday 9th October 21:43
Brother Mycroft said:
gordonb said:
If drivers are unaware enough of the congestion and frustration their driving is causing by hogging either lane 2 or 3, then what is stop them moving back to an inside lane without looking left closely enough! [1] Why lower your driving standards to a lower level than thier's!
[2] If more and more so called "advanced" and informed drivers undertake (by that I mean pass on the left) what message does this give to the drivers who give no thought to more advanced matters and improved observations and fly past on the left without the thought and planning that some folk on here advocate as being "acceptable". It gives a clear message to other less experianced drivers that it is ok! It will be them that gets caught out no doubt!
As Reg says sit back and chill! Set an example and don't expose yourself to additional danger!
Gordon
1/. In what way is it powering your driving standard? Just because it is [at present] against the law that does not mean your standard of driving is worsened by doing it.[2] If more and more so called "advanced" and informed drivers undertake (by that I mean pass on the left) what message does this give to the drivers who give no thought to more advanced matters and improved observations and fly past on the left without the thought and planning that some folk on here advocate as being "acceptable". It gives a clear message to other less experianced drivers that it is ok! It will be them that gets caught out no doubt!
As Reg says sit back and chill! Set an example and don't expose yourself to additional danger!
Gordon
Let me explain... You will happily take a left turn at a junction if the road is clear to your right, that is what you should do it is proper progress on the road you don't wait for the traffic on the other carriageway [coming at you from the left] to be clear to pull out... but if there is a traffic light there you can't pull out at all... the action that you would take if you were allowed to take a left against the lights would be the same so it is only because we have a 'convention' to not do something that we think doing it is bad... overtaking on the left is not in itself a bad driving move.
2/. I suggest like all good manoeuvres it might just make them improve their alertness and do it themselves on occasion... I think you will find the journey to work quicker, because that 'snake of the hopeless' in lane three would disipate and that would mean that instead of 20 cars sitting nose-to-tail at 65-70 mph they would all be all over the carriageway getting a move on.
By allowing overtaking on the left it will improve life on M'ways for the vast majority of us.
Your putting your vehicle into a place, where other drivers may not expect you, or be accelerating into a place where a driver may have thought to be clear. And at a speed that they won't expect!
If you want to put yourself in that place of danger fine. I won't do it!
How much time will it save you? Plan for it and leave 5 or 10 minutes earlier.
gordonb said:
Brother Mycroft said:
gordonb said:
If drivers are unaware enough of the congestion and frustration their driving is causing by hogging either lane 2 or 3, then what is stop them moving back to an inside lane without looking left closely enough! [1] Why lower your driving standards to a lower level than thier's!
[2] If more and more so called "advanced" and informed drivers undertake (by that I mean pass on the left) what message does this give to the drivers who give no thought to more advanced matters and improved observations and fly past on the left without the thought and planning that some folk on here advocate as being "acceptable". It gives a clear message to other less experianced drivers that it is ok! It will be them that gets caught out no doubt!
As Reg says sit back and chill! Set an example and don't expose yourself to additional danger!
Gordon
1/. In what way is it powering your driving standard? Just because it is [at present] against the law that does not mean your standard of driving is worsened by doing it.[2] If more and more so called "advanced" and informed drivers undertake (by that I mean pass on the left) what message does this give to the drivers who give no thought to more advanced matters and improved observations and fly past on the left without the thought and planning that some folk on here advocate as being "acceptable". It gives a clear message to other less experianced drivers that it is ok! It will be them that gets caught out no doubt!
As Reg says sit back and chill! Set an example and don't expose yourself to additional danger!
Gordon
Let me explain... You will happily take a left turn at a junction if the road is clear to your right, that is what you should do it is proper progress on the road you don't wait for the traffic on the other carriageway [coming at you from the left] to be clear to pull out... but if there is a traffic light there you can't pull out at all... the action that you would take if you were allowed to take a left against the lights would be the same so it is only because we have a 'convention' to not do something that we think doing it is bad... overtaking on the left is not in itself a bad driving move.
2/. I suggest like all good manoeuvres it might just make them improve their alertness and do it themselves on occasion... I think you will find the journey to work quicker, because that 'snake of the hopeless' in lane three would disipate and that would mean that instead of 20 cars sitting nose-to-tail at 65-70 mph they would all be all over the carriageway getting a move on.
By allowing overtaking on the left it will improve life on M'ways for the vast majority of us.
Your putting your vehicle into a place, where other drivers may not expect you, or be accelerating into a place where a driver may have thought to be clear. And at a speed that they won't expect!
If you want to put yourself in that place of danger fine. I won't do it!
How much time will it save you? Plan for it and leave 5 or 10 minutes earlier.
Overtaking on the left if it was sanctioned would negate both your first and second paragraphs!!!
It is not just my time but the time and more importantly the frustration of the general road user, again a point entirely avoided in your reply.
Brother Mycroft said:
Let me explain... You will happily take a left turn at a junction if the road is clear to your right, that is what you should do it is proper progress on the road you don't wait for the traffic on the other carriageway [coming at you from the left] to be clear to pull out... but if there is a traffic light there you can't pull out at all... the action that you would take if you were allowed to take a left against the lights would be the same so it is only because we have a 'convention' to not do something that we think doing it is bad... overtaking on the left is not in itself a bad driving move.
Well said that man.As I have said earlier in the thread, overtaking on the left is not considered dangerous when carried out in a one-way street nor is it dangerous when carried out in "queues" (and there is no definition as to what constitutes a queue) and it is not considered dangerous within the variable speed limit section of the M25 where you are TOLD to STAY IN LANE. If it were any more dangerous than overtaking on the right (having made all of the necessary checks and considerations) then the US Freeways and Interstates would be carnage. They are not. People pass on both sides quite happily just as they do here in one-way streets and "queues" and yes, on the M25 at speeds of 50 or 60 mph. It's amazing how all this so called "risky" driving is so perfectly safe.
It is far more dangerous to sit in the queue behind the 2hat with tunnel vision. It is far more dangerous to have someone right up yer chuff because everyone wants to just get on rather than be held up by a moron. I know what I'll be doing and it certainly isn't following the procession of mindless sheep that are doing anything but "chilling" and waiting patiently. If that brings me into conflict with a drone that wants to report me "because the law is the law" (which it actually isn't, it's just an opinion) then so be it. Score 1 more for public-police relations... NOT.
Brother Mycroft said:
You are simply not addressing the points in the argument!
Overtaking on the left if it was sanctioned would negate both your first and second paragraphs!!!
It is not just my time but the time and more importantly the frustration of the general road user, again a point entirely avoided in your reply.
Given, if it was deemed to be acceptable, and was written into law/ highway code, and with increased awareness from other road users, then yes I can see your point.Overtaking on the left if it was sanctioned would negate both your first and second paragraphs!!!
It is not just my time but the time and more importantly the frustration of the general road user, again a point entirely avoided in your reply.
But it isn't, how likely would it be to become law and in the highway code? Why not try and educate people to drive in the proper manner in relation to the present highway code.
gordonb said:
Brother Mycroft said:
You are simply not addressing the points in the argument!
Overtaking on the left if it was sanctioned would negate both your first and second paragraphs!!!
It is not just my time but the time and more importantly the frustration of the general road user, again a point entirely avoided in your reply.
Given, if it was deemed to be acceptable, and was written into law/ highway code, and with increased awareness from other road users, then yes I can see your point.Overtaking on the left if it was sanctioned would negate both your first and second paragraphs!!!
It is not just my time but the time and more importantly the frustration of the general road user, again a point entirely avoided in your reply.
But it isn't, how likely would it be to become law and in the highway code? [1] Why not try and educate people to drive in the proper manner in relation to the present highway code.
So, if something is manifestly failing in its effect because the vast majority 'vote with their feet' and [as you admit] there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the principal... then frankly to leave things as they are is irresponsible.
Hence my comment to RULoco that sitting back and doing bugger-all is riskier than the alternative I have outlined.
Brother Mycroft said:
Hence my comment to RULoco that sitting back and doing bugger-all is riskier than the alternative I have outlined.
If you're looking to change the law, then you're pissing in the wind by posting your opinion on a website thread read by (at best) a couple of hundred people.If you're advocating overtaking on the left, then I completely fail to see how you can say that course of action carries less risk than sitting back and waiting.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Brother Mycroft said:
Hence my comment to RULoco that sitting back and doing bugger-all is riskier than the alternative I have outlined.
If you're looking to change the law, then you're pissing in the wind by posting your opinion on a website thread read by (at best) a couple of hundred people.[1] If you're advocating overtaking on the left, then I completely fail to see how you can say that course of action carries less risk than sitting back and waiting.
I.e, that single operation has no further effect, it often does not, overtaking on the left will often 'prompt' the driver overtaken to pull over.
This is good, it is a prompt [or telling off] without it being a personalised loss of face.
This is further reason to promote overtaking on the left rather than decry it.
R_U_LOCAL said:
Brother Mycroft said:
Hence my comment to RULoco that sitting back and doing bugger-all is riskier than the alternative I have outlined.
If you're looking to change the law, then you're pissing in the wind by posting your opinion on a website thread read by (at best) a couple of hundred people.If you're advocating overtaking on the left, then I completely fail to see how you can say that course of action carries less risk than sitting back and waiting.
Brother Mycroft said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Brother Mycroft said:
Hence my comment to RULoco that sitting back and doing bugger-all is riskier than the alternative I have outlined.
If you're looking to change the law, then you're pissing in the wind by posting your opinion on a website thread read by (at best) a couple of hundred people.If you're advocating overtaking on the left, then I completely fail to see how you can say that course of action carries less risk than sitting back and waiting.
A bit like waiting for you to answer the simple question I asked - how is sitting back and waiting riskier than overtaking on the left?
R_U_LOCAL said:
Brother Mycroft said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Brother Mycroft said:
Hence my comment to RULoco that sitting back and doing bugger-all is riskier than the alternative I have outlined.
If you're looking to change the law, then you're pissing in the wind by posting your opinion on a website thread read by (at best) a couple of hundred people.If you're advocating overtaking on the left, then I completely fail to see how you can say that course of action carries less risk than sitting back and waiting.
A bit like waiting for you to answer the simple question I asked - how is sitting back and waiting riskier than overtaking on the left?
R_U_LOCAL said:
Brother Mycroft said:
See the post above the one you have quoted.
Thanks for the tip.*Takes eggs out of mouth*
No - it's not an answer to my question.
As a singular action taken on its own then overtaking on either the left or right is riskier than doing nothing.
The answer however cannot be left there, there are ramifications of all actions and very few actions are singular lone acts there are always consequences, therefore my answer stands, in the majority of instances overtaking on the left will be a positive action on almost all counts in comparison to the one you have advocated which overall is a negative action on all counts.
Brother Mycroft said:
I think you will find it is...
As a singular action taken on its own then overtaking on either the left or right is riskier than doing nothing.
The answer however cannot be left there, there are ramifications of all actions and very few actions are singular lone acts there are always consequences, therefore my answer stands, in the majority of instances overtaking on the left will be a positive action on almost all counts in comparison to the one you have advocated which overall is a negative action on all counts.
Nope - I see the words on the screen, but All I can read is "blah, blah, blah".As a singular action taken on its own then overtaking on either the left or right is riskier than doing nothing.
The answer however cannot be left there, there are ramifications of all actions and very few actions are singular lone acts there are always consequences, therefore my answer stands, in the majority of instances overtaking on the left will be a positive action on almost all counts in comparison to the one you have advocated which overall is a negative action on all counts.
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff