Motorway driving - part 1
Discussion
Tonsko said:
This is just a question, so don't shoot me! 
Am I that scary? You can ask anything you like!Tonsko said:
I was told by my dad (an IAM observer) years ago about the fast lane/slow lane errors when I was first learning to drive, and he probably told me about the lane 1/2/3 nomenclature at the same time.
However, is there anything actually wrong with referring to them as left lane, middle lane, right lane? After all, It's not using weighted language to describe the lanes as 'slow' and 'fast', and is just a different way of saying lane 1, 2 or 3 - in my mind it create similar neutral thought patterns that I assume describing them as lanes 1, 2 or 3 is trying to achieve.
Left lane, middle lane etc is all well and good, but what if you're on a 4-lane stretch of motorway?However, is there anything actually wrong with referring to them as left lane, middle lane, right lane? After all, It's not using weighted language to describe the lanes as 'slow' and 'fast', and is just a different way of saying lane 1, 2 or 3 - in my mind it create similar neutral thought patterns that I assume describing them as lanes 1, 2 or 3 is trying to achieve.
Tonsko said:
I also have some questions:
1st clip - you didn't indicate when joining - was there no traffic behind you to render this pointless ('ghost signalling').
Here’s the relevant passage from my post…1st clip - you didn't indicate when joining - was there no traffic behind you to render this pointless ('ghost signalling').
RUL said:
I don’t generally signal when I’m entering a motorway unless it’s particularly busy, in which case I’ll stick an indicator on more as a way of asking the driver behind me in lane 1 to allow me to enter. 9 times out of 10, I find that a signal isn’t necessary – especially if I’ve matched my speed correctly. It should just be a case of sliding smoothly but positively into lane 1.
Tonsko said:
2nd clip, you did indicate entering the motorway, but not when you moved to the second lane - is thata similar situation with no traffic behind you in that lane?
3rd clip, when joining, you moved to the 2nd lane, you indicated while moving, and for only a short time.
Please be aware that I'm not criticising, just questioning to learn
The above quote answers your questions about indicating when joining, but bear with me on the lane-change signals. I’ll include my opinion and advice on that in the next article.3rd clip, when joining, you moved to the 2nd lane, you indicated while moving, and for only a short time.
Please be aware that I'm not criticising, just questioning to learn
Cracking post Reg! This is the sort of stuff that makes PH great 
Learning a lot from this forum since stumbling upon it some months back - always on the lookout for your tutorials
This is the sort of stuff that makes PH great R_U_LOCAL said:
It is common courtesy if you’re driving along the motorway, to give assistance to joining drivers if it’s safe to do so. If traffic allows, you should try to make allowance for the joining drivers by moving to lane 2 and/or adjusting your speed.
However, as a joining driver, you should never expect people to make these allowances. It’s become all too common these days for drivers to simply expect people on the motorway to make allowances for them. Always remember that the onus is on the joining driver to make the allowances – not on the drivers who are already on the motorway. If, for whatever reason, someone doesn’t or can’t make allowances for you, then make another plan.
How would you plan to enter lane 1 where the traffic is very tightly bunched and moving quite fast, for example near the start of roadworks, if nobody drops back to leave you a safe gap to slip into? I can imagine a scenario where you might run out of slip road and be forced to come to a stop, whereupon it becomes almost impossible to join safely without Millennium Falcon acceleration. Seems to me that in some circumstances (perhaps relating mostly to excessive traffic volumes) modern motorway driving has become a necessarily co-operative affair.However, as a joining driver, you should never expect people to make these allowances. It’s become all too common these days for drivers to simply expect people on the motorway to make allowances for them. Always remember that the onus is on the joining driver to make the allowances – not on the drivers who are already on the motorway. If, for whatever reason, someone doesn’t or can’t make allowances for you, then make another plan.
Learning a lot from this forum since stumbling upon it some months back - always on the lookout for your tutorials
Moosepig, this is one of the area's that confuses/annoys me the most.
I have always been under the impression that the dahsed line at the end of the sliproad is a giveway line. The only difference to a normal give way line is the fact its at such an angle?
It *really* annoys me when people assume you are going to move out of their way - there has been occasions where I am in lane 1 passing the end of the sliproad, and the joining car will expect me to move over, right until they reach the point where they run out of sliproad, usually forcing either hard braking, or cutting me up, followed by coffee beans.
Of course, I would usually move out of the way, if there hadn't been, say, a fast approaching motorbike in lane 2 with no excape route if I pull out in front of him.
I have always been under the impression that the dahsed line at the end of the sliproad is a giveway line. The only difference to a normal give way line is the fact its at such an angle?
It *really* annoys me when people assume you are going to move out of their way - there has been occasions where I am in lane 1 passing the end of the sliproad, and the joining car will expect me to move over, right until they reach the point where they run out of sliproad, usually forcing either hard braking, or cutting me up, followed by coffee beans.
Of course, I would usually move out of the way, if there hadn't been, say, a fast approaching motorbike in lane 2 with no excape route if I pull out in front of him.
snotrag said:
Moosepig, this is one of the area's that confuses/annoys me the most.
I have always been under the impression that the dahsed line at the end of the sliproad is a giveway line. The only difference to a normal give way line is the fact its at such an angle?
It *really* annoys me when people assume you are going to move out of their way - there has been occasions where I am in lane 1 passing the end of the sliproad, and the joining car will expect me to move over, right until they reach the point where they run out of sliproad, usually forcing either hard braking, or cutting me up, followed by coffee beans.
Of course, I would usually move out of the way, if there hadn't been, say, a fast approaching motorbike in lane 2 with no excape route if I pull out in front of him.
I had a scenario about 2 years ago just past the Castlecary arches on the M80 where a woman pulled onto the M/way in front of me (approx 30m) at a right angle to the carriegeway over the end of the chevron area. I had not moved to lane 2 as a car was gaining on me in that lane.I have always been under the impression that the dahsed line at the end of the sliproad is a giveway line. The only difference to a normal give way line is the fact its at such an angle?
It *really* annoys me when people assume you are going to move out of their way - there has been occasions where I am in lane 1 passing the end of the sliproad, and the joining car will expect me to move over, right until they reach the point where they run out of sliproad, usually forcing either hard braking, or cutting me up, followed by coffee beans.
Of course, I would usually move out of the way, if there hadn't been, say, a fast approaching motorbike in lane 2 with no excape route if I pull out in front of him.
As it was I had to use that lane at risk of clipping that car as I decided it would have been a better result than T boning the car in front of me.
To give me the best chance of not hitting that car I actually chose not to brake and managed to avoid both of them. A few seconds later the driver of the car that had been behind me drew level, gave a wave and mouthed OK? and then gave a thumbs up.
Anyway, Reg another great article, a few things different from my approach such as moving to the right on slip roads but I can clearly see your logic and reasoning. I will give it a go.
henrycrun said:
BTW I've always assumed that in the rare occasion of running out of slip road that one was allowed to use the hard shoulder before joining lane 1. Is this right or wrong ? (BTW I don't think I've needed to try this out)
I don't know the answer either, but in general I would think it safer to use a bit of hard shoulder, rather than come to a halt at the end of the slip road, but I suspect the law may say otherwise.This will not cater for all situations, but if it looks like being difficult to enter lane 1, maybe it's best to keep the speed down so that you give yourself more time to find a gap before you run out of slip road.
On the other hand, if the motorway traffic is travelling quickly, you're increasing the speed differential between yourself and that traffic - which of course makes it more difficult to get in.
I suppose it all comes down to weighing up the situation as early as possible, identifying a decent (and stable) gap and going for it positively. Beware of the gap that might shrink on you.
<thinks: I wonder if I've made a mistake in getting involved here? Sorry, Henry!
>Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
henrycrun said:
BTW I've always assumed that in the rare occasion of running out of slip road that one was allowed to use the hard shoulder before joining lane 1. Is this right or wrong ? (BTW I don't think I've needed to try this out)
I don't know the answer either, but in general I would think it safer to use a bit of hard shoulder, rather than come to a halt at the end of the slip road, but I suspect the law may say otherwise."Before you rejoin the carriageway after a breakdown, build up speed on the hard shoulder and watch for a safe gap in the traffic. Be aware that other vehicles may be stationary on the hard shoulder."
Question is, then, what would be the point in stopping on the slip road to avoid using the hard shoulder, if you were then going to use the hard shoulder to accelerate? You'd just be increasing the risk of being rammed from behind by someone else on the sliproad who is looking for a gap and not at where he's going.
I wonder why the HC doesn't offer chapter and verse on this? It shouldn't happen, but it could, most likely to an inexperienced driver in a low powered car.
Excellent post Reg, but have you noticed how reluctant many (older? women?inexperienced?)drivers are, when at the decision point in the joining lane, to accelerate into the gap ahead, but rather they brake/slow and aim to go behind the vehicle in lane 1 which is almost behind them already?
Driving a race truck at weekends, unfortunately most of the time in lane 1, gives you an interesting perspective!
It must be safer to accelerate.
1. You would have a clear view ahead of your chosen space, not over your shoulder.
2. It will not impeed the traffic behind, particularly when your attention, and their's is on the motorway traffic, not immediately ahead or behind.
3.The gap is not suddenly going to close if its an LGV on the limiter at 56mph.
Also, if you are cruising in lane 1, and, as I am sure most LGV drivers do anyway, do a really good left mirror check as you approach and as you pass the joining area, avoids being surprised by the antics of the "last of the late joiners"
I hope I didn't miss any comments to this effect in your post.
P.S.
As a founder member of the "middle lane car cruising club", I much prefer it to lane 3 in heavy traffic as the driver always has a much better view ahead of lane 3 from lane 2,(and of ahead in lane 2, with maybe a squeeze of the white line) than in the "what's in your boot?-brake light testers racing club" in lane 3!
It comes down to risk/benefit management, an essential safe motorway driver's philosophy IMHO
Driving a race truck at weekends, unfortunately most of the time in lane 1, gives you an interesting perspective!
It must be safer to accelerate.
1. You would have a clear view ahead of your chosen space, not over your shoulder.
2. It will not impeed the traffic behind, particularly when your attention, and their's is on the motorway traffic, not immediately ahead or behind.
3.The gap is not suddenly going to close if its an LGV on the limiter at 56mph.
Also, if you are cruising in lane 1, and, as I am sure most LGV drivers do anyway, do a really good left mirror check as you approach and as you pass the joining area, avoids being surprised by the antics of the "last of the late joiners"
I hope I didn't miss any comments to this effect in your post.
P.S.
As a founder member of the "middle lane car cruising club", I much prefer it to lane 3 in heavy traffic as the driver always has a much better view ahead of lane 3 from lane 2,(and of ahead in lane 2, with maybe a squeeze of the white line) than in the "what's in your boot?-brake light testers racing club" in lane 3!
It comes down to risk/benefit management, an essential safe motorway driver's philosophy IMHO
Problem with pulling in front of the lorry is that you may suddenly find yourself contending for road with someone who was just overtaking the lorry and is now heading back to lane 1. They've not even noticed the junction (having been gaining on the lorry at +.1mph for a while now).
I've taken to trying for a glance under lorries as I join, to see if I can spot this breed of numpty.
I've taken to trying for a glance under lorries as I join, to see if I can spot this breed of numpty.
R_U_LOCAL said:
renn said:
Hi
I've read that on the slip road a position near to lane 1 on the motorway help you see and be seen when the slip road descends but when ascending to join the motorway a position to the left of the slip road is preferable.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Renn
It's an interesting theory - not one I've come across before. I've thought about it, and it's possible that you could obtain a slightly better over-the-shoulder view of lane 1 from the nearside lane, so yes, this could be an advantage.I've read that on the slip road a position near to lane 1 on the motorway help you see and be seen when the slip road descends but when ascending to join the motorway a position to the left of the slip road is preferable.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Renn
I'll try it over the next week or so and then give you a proper verdict.
Dogwatch said:
I was interested in your comment about not always using the indicator when joining Lane 1. Not do so would worry me (as a motorway joiner) as I like the world around me to know what my intentions are. If I have missed their presence 
then they can hoot, flash or whatever. 
I know it shouldn't happen - but it can.
ETA just viewed the video, and found the Cornering one as well. Great stuff - but the crackles on the soundtrack!!
I know, I know! The sound on those videos is awful, but the bullet-cam I borrowed is extremely small and convenient to mount. I'm looking at doing a couple of commentary videos at some point, so I need to sort out a way of recording some decent audio to go along with the video. I've got some plans myself, involving a PDA voice recorder and some editing software, but if anyone fancies bringing some decent recording equipment for a run out, then feel free to PM me. then they can hoot, flash or whatever. I know it shouldn't happen - but it can.
ETA just viewed the video, and found the Cornering one as well. Great stuff - but the crackles on the soundtrack!!
As for indicating when joining, don't get me wrong - I'm happy for you to carry on indicating your intentions as much as you want. It's just that, with my background, the traditional way of thinking is to eliminate any unnecessary signals. Not really because an unnecessary signal is a bad thing, but more to increase a student's observation skills by making them look around to see if there is anyone who actually needs a signal.
It's been debated at length on other threads, so I won't hammer the point home - I'd much prefer someone to signal for every move rather than miss the odd signal that is required.
Let's just say that bit is personal preference.
I was going to ask the same thing as Renn.
I religiously mirror signal manourve over the 1000s of miles I do.
Every now and then I come across a situation where I think was that signal really necessary. It was interesting to see you not signal right to join the motorway - as you were hardly going to turn left and drive into the field!
Sometimes I come also come across say a traffic light juction with a clearly marked filter lane that is marked right turn only with a green filter arrow. the lights change to red as I approach And I sit there on Red indicating right. I just cant help myself LOL - what an idiot I think to myself sometimes - Of course I am going to turn right - what a pointless signal.
I think I will try and cut a few out.
Good post
Thanks
Steve
Scoobman said:
Sometimes I come also come across say a traffic light juction with a clearly marked filter lane that is marked right turn only with a green filter arrow. the lights change to red as I approach And I sit there on Red indicating right. I just cant help myself LOL - what an idiot I think to myself sometimes - Of course I am going to turn right - what a pointless signal.
i prefer people in that position to be signalling. after the amount ive seen go straight on from a right (or left) turn lane its nice to get confirmation they are going where you expect them too.Hooli said:
Scoobman said:
Sometimes I come also come across say a traffic light juction with a clearly marked filter lane that is marked right turn only with a green filter arrow. the lights change to red as I approach And I sit there on Red indicating right. I just cant help myself LOL - what an idiot I think to myself sometimes - Of course I am going to turn right - what a pointless signal.
i prefer people in that position to be signalling. after the amount ive seen go straight on from a right (or left) turn lane its nice to get confirmation they are going where you expect them too.AFAIAC, "give a signal when necessary" is basically another way of saying "Look and consider. Having looked, if someone would benefit from a signal, then give one". As I tell associates - people who habitually signal tend not to look properly.
defblade said:
Problem with pulling in front of the lorry is that you may suddenly find yourself contending for road with someone who was just overtaking the lorry and is now heading back to lane 1. They've not even noticed the junction (having been gaining on the lorry at +.1mph for a while now).
I've taken to trying for a glance under lorries as I join, to see if I can spot this breed of numpty.
This is one of the dangers I see the most, you have to make sure that not just lane one is clear when entering from a sliproad, but also be aware of what is happening in lane 2, and are they going to move into lane 1 as you join.I've taken to trying for a glance under lorries as I join, to see if I can spot this breed of numpty.
I always do a left shoulder check now when moving in after overtating lorries, you never know if a slow moving bike is in front of them, and it makes it a habbit then so as your not just doing it near entry sliproads.
Hooli said:
Scoobman said:
Sometimes I come also come across say a traffic light juction with a clearly marked filter lane that is marked right turn only with a green filter arrow. the lights change to red as I approach And I sit there on Red indicating right. I just cant help myself LOL - what an idiot I think to myself sometimes - Of course I am going to turn right - what a pointless signal.
i prefer people in that position to be signalling. after the amount ive seen go straight on from a right (or left) turn lane its nice to get confirmation they are going where you expect them too.Thanks for the post
You can improve the sound from the bullet cam by wrapping it in foam (have to experiment)
"Related videos"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HH63-EQVGc&fea...
You can improve the sound from the bullet cam by wrapping it in foam (have to experiment)
"Related videos"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HH63-EQVGc&fea...
You're in the wrong thread - try http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Seriously, the "cross paint, you must indicate" sounds like an ADI-type piece of advice, and too dogmatic for my liking.
Seriously, the "cross paint, you must indicate" sounds like an ADI-type piece of advice, and too dogmatic for my liking.
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